(02-10-2015 10:01 PM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 05:57 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  My impression is that ND views "national" and "Eastern" as largely one and the same (and mainly trying to get away from the image that it's Midwestern outside of its strong ties to Chicago). Being in a Great Plains/Minnesota-based league doesn't aid in that endeavor (as that's an even more foreign version of the "Midwest" to most Domers compared to neighboring Michigan/Ohio/Illinois/Indiana).

Whether Hockey East or the NCHC is a stronger hockey conference is a fair argument. But you're nailing the key thing: when it comes to ND, to a rather significant degree, they view their hockey team as a marketing element for the school.

No offense to Omaha, Duluth, Grand Forks, Kalamazoo and St. Cloud --- I've been to all 5 places and they are all perfectly nice --- but those places vs. Boston/New England is absolutely no comparison from the Irish Point-of-view. The other NCHC sites (Oxford/Greater Cincinnati-Dayton, Denver, Colorado Springs) are significantly more attractive to ND, but still a inferior to Boston/New England. Besides, ND can always schedule OOC games against the likes of Miami, Denver or Colorado College.

Adding the Phoenix metro potentially changes the optics. The possibility that Stanford or USC is a longer term option makes it more enticing.

But many of the previous posts would seem to indicate that the ECAC is the preferred hockey conference for Notre Dame. It still has the New England Ivies, plus Cornell and Princeton, and also schools like RPI, Clarkson, St Lawrence, and Union. Swap Quinnipiac for Notre Dame, and Notre Dame would have tie ins to elite institutions and not be limited to New England. The ECAC has also seen a resurgence of hockey power over the past decade, with Yale, Union winning the championship.

(02-11-2015 12:29 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 10:01 PM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 05:57 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  My impression is that ND views "national" and "Eastern" as largely one and the same (and mainly trying to get away from the image that it's Midwestern outside of its strong ties to Chicago). Being in a Great Plains/Minnesota-based league doesn't aid in that endeavor (as that's an even more foreign version of the "Midwest" to most Domers compared to neighboring Michigan/Ohio/Illinois/Indiana).

Whether Hockey East or the NCHC is a stronger hockey conference is a fair argument. But you're nailing the key thing: when it comes to ND, to a rather significant degree, they view their hockey team as a marketing element for the school.

No offense to Omaha, Duluth, Grand Forks, Kalamazoo and St. Cloud --- I've been to all 5 places and they are all perfectly nice --- but those places vs. Boston/New England is absolutely no comparison from the Irish Point-of-view. The other NCHC sites (Oxford/Greater Cincinnati-Dayton, Denver, Colorado Springs) are significantly more attractive to ND, but still a inferior to Boston/New England. Besides, ND can always schedule OOC games against the likes of Miami, Denver or Colorado College.

Adding the Phoenix metro potentially changes the optics. The possibility that Stanford or USC is a longer term option makes it more enticing.

But many of the previous posts would seem to indicate that the ECAC is the preferred hockey conference for Notre Dame. It still has the New England Ivies, plus Cornell and Princeton, and also schools like RPI, Clarkson, St Lawrence, and Union. Swap Quinnipiac for Notre Dame, and Notre Dame would have tie ins to elite institutions and not be limited to New England. The ECAC has also seen a resurgence of hockey power over the past decade, with Yale, Union winning the championship.

If Syracuse upgrades, and I think we eventually will, I'm pretty certain that we will end up in the ECAC. I doubt that changes the calculus for either ND or BC, though. For argument's sake, assuming that it does for BC, I think that would be enough to pull ND. If it does for ND, I think that there's a chance that BC jumps back.

EDIT: Regardless, I think that the collegiate hockey landscape is going to be tumultuous for the foreseeable future. I think that there aren't a lot of stable balances of power in it. Specifically, pretty much every conference not named the "Big Ten" looks cobbled together with a variety of schools with varying degrees of resources, commitment, and history, and wildly inconsistent academic missions and profiles. As hockey grows and begins to matter on a college level, those differences will become important.

(02-11-2015 02:14 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 12:29 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 10:01 PM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 05:57 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  My impression is that ND views "national" and "Eastern" as largely one and the same (and mainly trying to get away from the image that it's Midwestern outside of its strong ties to Chicago). Being in a Great Plains/Minnesota-based league doesn't aid in that endeavor (as that's an even more foreign version of the "Midwest" to most Domers compared to neighboring Michigan/Ohio/Illinois/Indiana).

Whether Hockey East or the NCHC is a stronger hockey conference is a fair argument. But you're nailing the key thing: when it comes to ND, to a rather significant degree, they view their hockey team as a marketing element for the school.

No offense to Omaha, Duluth, Grand Forks, Kalamazoo and St. Cloud --- I've been to all 5 places and they are all perfectly nice --- but those places vs. Boston/New England is absolutely no comparison from the Irish Point-of-view. The other NCHC sites (Oxford/Greater Cincinnati-Dayton, Denver, Colorado Springs) are significantly more attractive to ND, but still a inferior to Boston/New England. Besides, ND can always schedule OOC games against the likes of Miami, Denver or Colorado College.

Adding the Phoenix metro potentially changes the optics. The possibility that Stanford or USC is a longer term option makes it more enticing.

But many of the previous posts would seem to indicate that the ECAC is the preferred hockey conference for Notre Dame. It still has the New England Ivies, plus Cornell and Princeton, and also schools like RPI, Clarkson, St Lawrence, and Union. Swap Quinnipiac for Notre Dame, and Notre Dame would have tie ins to elite institutions and not be limited to New England. The ECAC has also seen a resurgence of hockey power over the past decade, with Yale, Union winning the championship.

If Syracuse upgrades, and I think we eventually will, I'm pretty certain that we will end up in the ECAC. I doubt that changes the calculus for either ND or BC, though. For argument's sake, assuming that it does for BC, I think that would be enough to pull ND. If it does for ND, I think that there's a chance that BC jumps back.

EDIT: Regardless, I think that the collegiate hockey landscape is going to be tumultuous for the foreseeable future. I think that there aren't a lot of stable balances of power in it. Specifically, pretty much every conference not named the "Big Ten" looks cobbled together with a variety of schools with varying degrees of resources, commitment, and history, and wildly inconsistent academic missions and profiles. As hockey grows and begins to matter on a college level, those differences will become important.

Have never understood why the Ivy's haven't broken off from the ECAC and formed their own autobid league. With six teams, they have that right.

Some of the Atlantic Hockey teams have aspirations for offering full scholarships. If Buffalo hockey ever gets off the ground, a new CCHA/Lake Erie league would probably form with Bowling Green, Ferris State, Robert Morris, Mercyhurst, Niagara, Canisius, and maybe RIT. Such a league was talked about in the last realignment, but one of the AD's said it might be a good foundation, but the timing is premature. Bowling Green and probably Ferris State badly want out of the WCHA. I've always imagined Oakland (Mich) and Grand Valley St (Mich) to be natural hockey schools, but they don't have a cost effective league to aspire to. Syracuse would probably find a conference like that beneath their standards.

The rumor mill out of Arizona is that ASU is pushing Arizona to go varsity, too. Arizona's club team plays in the 6000 seat Tucson Convention Center, which would be fine for a varsity team. Arizona draws pretty well for a club team too. Practice ice and startup money would be the problem.

Maybe its time for Syracuse or Iowa State to step up. The NCHC would definitely go to 12 with four P5 teams.

(02-12-2015 01:06 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The rumor mill out of Arizona is that ASU is pushing Arizona to go varsity, too. Arizona's club team plays in the 6000 seat Tucson Convention Center, which would be fine for a varsity team. Arizona draws pretty well for a club team too. Practice ice and startup money would be the problem.

Maybe its time for Syracuse or Iowa State to step up. The NCHC would definitely go to 12 with four P5 teams.

I don't see us not joining the conference with Cornell (90 minutes away) and Colgate (45 minutes away), especially given the other NY teams in the ECAC.

I'm guessing that if we joined, we would move the men and women's teams would move to the Oncenter War Memorial (the close to campus home of the Syracuse Crunch, a minor league team) and use the current facilities, (Tennity - a small rink largely used for recreation) for practice ice. Ultimately, we could end up with very good facilities, expecially if the Oncenter gets renovated.
http://www.oncenter.org/

If so, I can see our team getting really good in next to no time, especially given our willingness to pay Olympic sport coaches.

(02-09-2015 09:05 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  do they feel like an outsider because they arent dominating Hockey East like they probably expected they would?

if that's enough of a reason to not be in a conference - then i know why they only kinda joined the acc in football - and why they won't even kinda joined the big 10 or sec in football.

wimps

If PAC eventually has enough teams to sponsor its own auto-bid hockey conference, then I would say it's just one more step in the direction of Notre Dame joining the PAC (w/ Texas).

Call me crazy!

Man, I miss the CCHA.

If ND joins the NCHC and ASU doesn't join with them for whatever reason, it'll be interesting to see who the other team to even things up is. BG has finally turned it around under Bergeron, plus they make geographic sense.

I would think that conferences that sponsor football, especially the ACC, would not want any money poured into an expensive ice hockey start-up adventure. Schools that already have hockey established are fine.

Also, on the Notre Dame thing... a big factor was that Hockey East had no issue with the Irish having their own TV hockey deal, while the NCHC balked at it.

(02-12-2015 07:38 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 01:06 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The rumor mill out of Arizona is that ASU is pushing Arizona to go varsity, too. Arizona's club team plays in the 6000 seat Tucson Convention Center, which would be fine for a varsity team. Arizona draws pretty well for a club team too. Practice ice and startup money would be the problem.

Maybe its time for Syracuse or Iowa State to step up. The NCHC would definitely go to 12 with four P5 teams.

I don't see us not joining the conference with Cornell (90 minutes away) and Colgate (45 minutes away), especially given the other NY teams in the ECAC.

I'm guessing that if we joined, we would move the men and women's teams would move to the Oncenter War Memorial (the close to campus home of the Syracuse Crunch, a minor league team) and use the current facilities, (Tennity - a small rink largely used for recreation) for practice ice. Ultimately, we could end up with very good facilities, expecially if the Oncenter gets renovated.
http://www.oncenter.org/

If so, I can see our team getting really good in next to no time, especially given our willingness to pay Olympic sport coaches.

The Oncenter was built before the NHL adopted a standard rink size, which has since become the standard for most rinks at all levels throughout the country. I believe the Oncenter ice is about 7 feet too short end-to-end from regulation. Does the NCAA have requirements about rink sizes? At the club level, non-standard rinks are common, but that may not be okay at the D1 level. Illinois cited rink size at their current club arena as one of the reasons why they would need a new facility if they ever made the move to D1. Hopefully, the renovation plans for the Oncenter include bringing the rink up to regulation. Otherwise, Syracuse may need another option if they go to D1.

(02-13-2015 12:28 PM)prp Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 07:38 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 01:06 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The rumor mill out of Arizona is that ASU is pushing Arizona to go varsity, too. Arizona's club team plays in the 6000 seat Tucson Convention Center, which would be fine for a varsity team. Arizona draws pretty well for a club team too. Practice ice and startup money would be the problem.

Maybe its time for Syracuse or Iowa State to step up. The NCHC would definitely go to 12 with four P5 teams.

I don't see us not joining the conference with Cornell (90 minutes away) and Colgate (45 minutes away), especially given the other NY teams in the ECAC.

I'm guessing that if we joined, we would move the men and women's teams would move to the Oncenter War Memorial (the close to campus home of the Syracuse Crunch, a minor league team) and use the current facilities, (Tennity - a small rink largely used for recreation) for practice ice. Ultimately, we could end up with very good facilities, expecially if the Oncenter gets renovated.
http://www.oncenter.org/

If so, I can see our team getting really good in next to no time, especially given our willingness to pay Olympic sport coaches.

The Oncenter was built before the NHL adopted a standard rink size, which has since become the standard for most rinks at all levels throughout the country. I believe the Oncenter ice is about 7 feet too short end-to-end from regulation. Does the NCAA have requirements about rink sizes? At the club level, non-standard rinks are common, but that may not be okay at the D1 level. Illinois cited rink size at their current club arena as one of the reasons why they would need a new facility if they ever made the move to D1. Hopefully, the renovation plans for the Oncenter include bringing the rink up to regulation. Otherwise, Syracuse may need another option if they go to D1.

Some NCAA rinks are Olympic size (200 ' x 100'), but most are NHL size (200' x 85'). There are college rinks that vary in width from 85' to 100'. But length is pretty much set: 200 +\- 1. The NCAA manual probably stipulates the allowable dimensions.

(02-13-2015 11:11 AM)billyjack Wrote:  I would think that conferences that sponsor football, especially the ACC, would not want any money poured into an expensive ice hockey start-up adventure. Schools that already have hockey established are fine.

Also, on the Notre Dame thing... a big factor was that Hockey East had no issue with the Irish having their own TV hockey deal, while the NCHC balked at it.

Before Arizona State, that was the thinking.

Notre Dame would probably be allowed to take its own contract now. Before, N Dakota had its own arrangement with Fox Sports Atlantic/Central/Pacific to air that home games. CBS vetoed that for a year, but now they allow it. So having another national cable network is now allowed. Before, only regional networks were allowed.

(02-13-2015 01:02 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 12:28 PM)prp Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 07:38 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 01:06 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The rumor mill out of Arizona is that ASU is pushing Arizona to go varsity, too. Arizona's club team plays in the 6000 seat Tucson Convention Center, which would be fine for a varsity team. Arizona draws pretty well for a club team too. Practice ice and startup money would be the problem.

Maybe its time for Syracuse or Iowa State to step up. The NCHC would definitely go to 12 with four P5 teams.

I don't see us not joining the conference with Cornell (90 minutes away) and Colgate (45 minutes away), especially given the other NY teams in the ECAC.

I'm guessing that if we joined, we would move the men and women's teams would move to the Oncenter War Memorial (the close to campus home of the Syracuse Crunch, a minor league team) and use the current facilities, (Tennity - a small rink largely used for recreation) for practice ice. Ultimately, we could end up with very good facilities, expecially if the Oncenter gets renovated.
http://www.oncenter.org/

If so, I can see our team getting really good in next to no time, especially given our willingness to pay Olympic sport coaches.

The Oncenter was built before the NHL adopted a standard rink size, which has since become the standard for most rinks at all levels throughout the country. I believe the Oncenter ice is about 7 feet too short end-to-end from regulation. Does the NCAA have requirements about rink sizes? At the club level, non-standard rinks are common, but that may not be okay at the D1 level. Illinois cited rink size at their current club arena as one of the reasons why they would need a new facility if they ever made the move to D1. Hopefully, the renovation plans for the Oncenter include bringing the rink up to regulation. Otherwise, Syracuse may need another option if they go to D1.

Some NCAA rinks are Olympic size (200 ' x 100'), but most are NHL size (200' x 85'). There are college rinks that vary in width from 85' to 100'. But length is pretty much set: 200 +\- 1. The NCAA manual probably stipulates the allowable dimensions.

You're right. I found the info on Wikipedia. 200x85 is the most common size. There are several that are wider than 85 feet and two that are longer than 200 feet. The Oncenter, at 193x85, would be the smallest rink if it were to host D1 hockey. But it seems like there are plans in place to extend the surface to 200 feet so that apparently would not be an issue.

Olympic sized rinks are 100 feet wide, compared to the standard North American rinks of 85 feet. Some schools like New Hampshire have larger rinks because that allows them to host international competition.

I actually like watching games on larger rinks because it's a more wide open game with more passing and less holding and grabbing.

By the way, don't forget people, that tonight at 7:30pm on NBC Sports Network, your #11 Providence Friars face off at Notre Dame.

(02-10-2015 11:45 AM)bluesox Wrote:  u of Buffalo should start a program.

We need a Pegula type person to step up.

(02-13-2015 03:16 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 11:45 AM)bluesox Wrote:  u of Buffalo should start a program.

We need a Pegula type person to step up.

There was rumors he wanted Buffalo to start a program.

He's already provided Canisius a new rink across from where the Sabres play.

The Bills need a new stadium though. That will be big bucks.

(02-13-2015 01:02 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 12:28 PM)prp Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 07:38 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 01:06 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The rumor mill out of Arizona is that ASU is pushing Arizona to go varsity, too. Arizona's club team plays in the 6000 seat Tucson Convention Center, which would be fine for a varsity team. Arizona draws pretty well for a club team too. Practice ice and startup money would be the problem.

Maybe its time for Syracuse or Iowa State to step up. The NCHC would definitely go to 12 with four P5 teams.

I don't see us not joining the conference with Cornell (90 minutes away) and Colgate (45 minutes away), especially given the other NY teams in the ECAC.

I'm guessing that if we joined, we would move the men and women's teams would move to the Oncenter War Memorial (the close to campus home of the Syracuse Crunch, a minor league team) and use the current facilities, (Tennity - a small rink largely used for recreation) for practice ice. Ultimately, we could end up with very good facilities, expecially if the Oncenter gets renovated.
http://www.oncenter.org/

If so, I can see our team getting really good in next to no time, especially given our willingness to pay Olympic sport coaches.

The Oncenter was built before the NHL adopted a standard rink size, which has since become the standard for most rinks at all levels throughout the country. I believe the Oncenter ice is about 7 feet too short end-to-end from regulation. Does the NCAA have requirements about rink sizes? At the club level, non-standard rinks are common, but that may not be okay at the D1 level. Illinois cited rink size at their current club arena as one of the reasons why they would need a new facility if they ever made the move to D1. Hopefully, the renovation plans for the Oncenter include bringing the rink up to regulation. Otherwise, Syracuse may need another option if they go to D1.

Some NCAA rinks are Olympic size (200 ' x 100'), but most are NHL size (200' x 85'). There are college rinks that vary in width from 85' to 100'. But length is pretty much set: 200 +\- 1. The NCAA manual probably stipulates the allowable dimensions.

It doesn't matter. The Oncenter is actually expanding the rink this year.

(02-13-2015 04:08 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 03:16 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 11:45 AM)bluesox Wrote:  u of Buffalo should start a program.

We need a Pegula type person to step up.

There was rumors he wanted Buffalo to start a program.

I talked to the sabers after that, actually they called me. The statement from his offices are that he has *0* involvement with anything at UB.

Quote:He's already provided Canisius a new rink across from where the Sabres play.

By "Provided" you means he has leased it to them, they are paying to use the Harbor Center as the primary tenants. Before this the Griffs had to lease from Buff State (DIII program)

Feb 18, 2015

College Hockey Realignment: Motivations Behind Possible NCHC Expansion

I wonder what Bowling Green's stance is on all this.

They've essentially been left in the dust by the two other MAC schools with hockey. Now they're in the WCHA with four GLIAC (DII) Michigan schools that they don't play in non-hockey sports.

Their varsity team plays in essentially a community ice rink (also used by the club teams, intramurals and the high school) that is 50 years old.

I don't know what their attendance is like, but we all know hockey is a very expensive sport in terms of operational costs (as opposed to costs like coaching salaries, recruiting budgets and scholarships).


If the NCHC does indeed take Notre Dame as a 10th, instead of BG ... do they drop the varsity program?