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Thornton's March to the Record
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billymac Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Thornton's March to the Record
BT, I agree with you on that.

There were a couple others I left out, just because of sheer number of people I could fit in a top 10.
Jimmy Moran, who played for years overseas, was an exceptional talent and a great guy.
I agree with Brant Weidner as probably the best "pure" center, but I would add David Grabuloff as the best "passing" center. He had exceptional court vision and that made his team better.

And maybe a shoutout to a guy who wasn't in the 'burg but for a couple seasons, Tom Pfingst. He was a 6'4" red-headed guard out of St. Louis who had, to my memory, the best spin dribble move I have ever seen in person, at least for a red-head. If he came at you and you set up for a charge, he would just make you look flat out silly as you flopped and he was on the way to the basket for a layup. Tommy sometimes enjoyed the social end of college more than other areas. so he did not stay with us for four years. Loved watching him play, though.
01-18-2015 08:30 AM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Thornton's March to the Record
Pfingst and Mike Arizin were both on those teams and both left. We would have been real good in the years leading up to Lowenhaupt's freshman year if we would have had them, Matt Courage, and Sattertwaite playing at the same time.
01-18-2015 09:35 AM
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billymac Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Thornton's March to the Record
Mike Arizin was the first player I saw at W&M that I thought had the potential to go on after college. He was very talented and his Dad was a former NBA player. However, as has been the case on several occasions at W&M, people got in his ear and convinced him he could do better at a bigger program. 99% of the time it did not work out (isn't that right Calvin...??)
01-18-2015 09:41 AM
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3xTribe Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Thornton's March to the Record
I have really enjoyed learning about some of the players of the past that I never saw play. It is interesting that no one has really addressed the initial premise of my question, perhaps because I phrased it badly. As a baseball fan I am familiar with the endless debates about records and players from different eras (Maris vs. Ruth, for example). It is, of course, impossible to accurately compare players who competed under very different rules, circumstances, etc. My original thought was that some might consider the points record, if Marcus should break it, to be in some sense illegitimate because of the rules under which he has competed. To this point, nobody has suggested that his record should have the fabled asterisk next to it. It really comes down to our perception of the meaning of records. No one questions the premise that Marcus is among the greatest ever at William & Mary, and that his number will hang from the rafters before long. Now we can just sit around waiting for the next Thornton to arrive.
01-18-2015 11:03 AM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Thornton's March to the Record
I think that college basketball has changed so much over the last 70 years at William and Mary that it would be hard for me to figure out how to even it out.

In the olden days:

Freshmen weren't eligible to play until 1972
No three point shot
No shot clock
Fewer games each season
Competition was better
You could hand check
You weren't allowed to dunk

There are just so many things that changed over the years.

Having said that, it all evens out. The great players rise to the top regardless of era and scoring a lot of points is a huge feat. I'd just leave it at that.

I'd argue that true greatness isn't measured by stats all the time, but more about how the player impacts the team and makes everyone better on the court.
01-18-2015 12:39 PM
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62Indian Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Thornton's March to the Record
(01-18-2015 11:03 AM)3xTribe Wrote:  I have really enjoyed learning about some of the players of the past that I never saw play. It is interesting that no one has really addressed the initial premise of my question, perhaps because I phrased it badly. As a baseball fan I am familiar with the endless debates about records and players from different eras (Maris vs. Ruth, for example). It is, of course, impossible to accurately compare players who competed under very different rules, circumstances, etc. My original thought was that some might consider the points record, if Marcus should break it, to be in some sense illegitimate because of the rules under which he has competed. To this point, nobody has suggested that his record should have the fabled asterisk next to it. It really comes down to our perception of the meaning of records. No one questions the premise that Marcus is among the greatest ever at William & Mary, and that his number will hang from the rafters before long. Now we can just sit around waiting for the next Thornton to arrive.

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You are correct that it is impossible to compare players of one "era" with players of another "era" using home runs hit in baseball or points scored in basketball. There have simply been too many rule, and environmental, changes over the years to make statistical comparisons meaningless.

With respect to basketball consider the following:

Opportunity to play Pro basketball; for a long time, the NBA had rules prohibiting players from being drafted until after what was, or would have been, their Senior/Graduation year of College. So the truly outstanding college players of the "modern era" [the one-and-done era] do not play enough years in college to amass a big statistical record.

Width of Foul Lane rule change; in the days when Bill Chambers and Jeff Cohen played for W&M the 3 sec "Restricted Area" under the basket was six feet wide so big men [like Chambers and Cohen - who were big in those days] could "camp" underneath the basket and get easy rebounds/lay-ups, etc. At some point the "Restricted area" was widened to the present twelve feet which drastically reduced the rebounding and scoring stats for big men in general [which was the intention of the rule].

Freshman eligibility rule; for many years the NCAA prohibited Freshmen from playing "Varsity" level sports so all players were required to play on the "JV Team" during their Freshman year thus players in the era before that particular rule change [like Bill Chambers] can only have stats from their last three years in the record books.

Three point shot; we are all pretty familiar with the impact of the 3-point basket vs the 2-point basket.

The Shot Clock and the Half Court Line rules; by forcing continuous play and forcing players/teams to take more shots these rules have resulted in much higher scoring games and "fattened" scoring stats for teams and individual players. Before these rules went into effect the "Freeze" was a tactic frequently employed by the team that was winning at the time. [Actually the Freeze was usually exciting to watch, more so than the endless progression of trips to the foul line that is the typical ending tactic of today's college game].

Player Rotation; at one time the five "starters" played the whole game unless they fouled out. Bcause today's game is faster it requires more players and an eight to ten man rotation is not unusual. This keept the five "starters" fresher and also ends to distribute the stats amongst a greater number of players.
01-18-2015 12:43 PM
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WMTRIBE75 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Thornton's March to the Record
My favorite Tribe player to this day is Jimmy Moran, if for no other reason than the effort that he always gave and the fact that he was just a great guy. I agree with Billy Mac about both Weidner and Grabuloff, but I would add that our best defensive center was David Cully.The toughest guard that I have seen play, and I mean tough as in "go ahead, knock the battery off of my shoulder, I dare you", was Lowenhaupt's teammate Mike Enoch. The best two offensive players that I have seen are Marcus and Adam Hess. The most cerebral was probably Michael Strayhorn.

Finally, if I was asked to name the one player who did the greatest job of changing the mentality of Tribe basketball in my years, it would be David Schneider, hands down.
01-18-2015 01:05 PM
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3xTribe Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Thornton's March to the Record
Outstanding analysis, 62. Thanks!
01-18-2015 01:22 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Thornton's March to the Record
Most of us are partial to the guys on the teams that played while we were in school. Part of the reason is that, at least in the 70's, these guys were part of campus life, and one got to know one or two on a personal basis.

For me, the 75-76 and 76-77 teams were awesome ... well constructed ... well coached ... talented .... likeable... played nationally known teams, some at the Hall. Just loved rooting for those guys... and they were true teams.

That's probably why it just frosts me when Tribe basketball is not recognized from within, and from without, as it should be. There's a fine basketball tradition at the College that should be celebrated, nourished, and developed.
01-18-2015 01:37 PM
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