2013 Admissions profiles

UMD

Quote:Percent of Applicants Admitted: 47%
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 580 / 690
SAT Math: 620 / 730

VT

Quote:Percent of Applicants Admitted: 70%
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 540 / 640
SAT Math: 580 / 680

JMU

Quote:Percent of Applicants Admitted: 64%
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 520 / 620
SAT Math: 530 / 630

Out of curiosity, you guys are saying who cares about JMU Albany besides alumni? Couldn't you argue the same thing for ODU Marshall? Is not like ESPN or any National TV station is knocking down the door for that game. And, don't forget how many teams move up in rank and fail. Teams like FIU, WKU, FAU, UMass, SUNY Buffalo, UAB, Akron, EMU, etc all have little consistent success and are no better than a god FCS team. It seems like everyone talking about moving up just assumes the team will be successful. But a few lodging seasons in the FBS, and I'm not sure how well people are going to show up to watch JMU take on some MAC or Sun Belt or even CUSA school

(10-07-2014 11:04 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Out of curiosity, you guys are saying who cares about JMU Albany besides alumni? Couldn't you argue the same thing for ODU Marshall? Is not like ESPN or any National TV station is knocking down the door for that game. And, don't forget how many teams move up in rank and fail. Teams like FIU, WKU, FAU, UMass, SUNY Buffalo, UAB, Akron, EMU, etc all have little consistent success and are no better than a god FCS team. It seems like everyone talking about moving up just assumes the team will be successful. But a few lodging seasons in the FBS, and I'm not sure how well people are going to show up to watch JMU take on some MAC or Sun Belt or even CUSA school

I hear this argument once in a while, that teams move up and fail or regret their move. Just so I understand it better, can you quantify what you mean by that or how this failure or regret manifests itself?

Do these schools lose money and eventually go bankrupt?

Do fans stop showing up for games?

Do the people who make the decisions to move up get fired?

Have they cut other sports in order to move up?

Do donors stop giving money?

Do they compromise the goals and mission of the universities?

Do they miss the opportunity to host an FCS playoff game?

What is the failure exactly? Just wins and losses?

(10-07-2014 11:04 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Out of curiosity, you guys are saying who cares about JMU Albany besides alumni? Couldn't you argue the same thing for ODU Marshall? Is not like ESPN or any National TV station is knocking down the door for that game. And, don't forget how many teams move up in rank and fail. Teams like FIU, WKU, FAU, UMass, SUNY Buffalo, UAB, Akron, EMU, etc all have little consistent success and are no better than a god FCS team. It seems like everyone talking about moving up just assumes the team will be successful. But a few lodging seasons in the FBS, and I'm not sure how well people are going to show up to watch JMU take on some MAC or Sun Belt or even CUSA school

Poll fans of those schools and ask them their opinion of droping down to "D2" , aka FCS to the majority of the country, and you'll have your answer. I'm not saying they should be happy with their current state, but they'd rather be a bottom feeder "D1" than an elite "D2."

(10-07-2014 04:46 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  2013 Admissions profiles

UMD

Quote:Percent of Applicants Admitted: 47%
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 580 / 690
SAT Math: 620 / 730

VT

Quote:Percent of Applicants Admitted: 70%
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 540 / 640
SAT Math: 580 / 680

JMU

Quote:Percent of Applicants Admitted: 64%
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 520 / 620
SAT Math: 530 / 630

Maryland's numbers get inflated b/c the school is in such high demand in state since it is really the only public in Maryland worth it's salt (although Towson is doing okay these days).

(10-08-2014 08:44 AM)JMUETC Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 11:04 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Out of curiosity, you guys are saying who cares about JMU Albany besides alumni? Couldn't you argue the same thing for ODU Marshall? Is not like ESPN or any National TV station is knocking down the door for that game. And, don't forget how many teams move up in rank and fail. Teams like FIU, WKU, FAU, UMass, SUNY Buffalo, UAB, Akron, EMU, etc all have little consistent success and are no better than a god FCS team. It seems like everyone talking about moving up just assumes the team will be successful. But a few lodging seasons in the FBS, and I'm not sure how well people are going to show up to watch JMU take on some MAC or Sun Belt or even CUSA school

I hear this argument once in a while, that teams move up and fail or regret their move. Just so I understand it better, can you quantify what you mean by that or how this failure or regret manifests itself?

Do these schools lose money and eventually go bankrupt?
Maybe not bankrupt, but some schools cut sports to save money and avoid going bankrupt


Do fans stop showing up for games?
Yes. Eastern Michigan pulls 2-4,000 fans per game. That's an FBS team. The F_U teams hit 10k on a good day. A lot of these schools average about what William and Mary does, maybe slightly more, maybe even a little less. Pleny of these teams average 15k fans or less, and some only hit that number due to generous rounding or crazy ticket packages. One school, for example, (I forget which one) was offering a deal where 10 tickets to their game was $30.

Do the people who make the decisions to move up get fired?
This one I don't know. Wouldn't surprise me if it's happened, but I can't say for certain. A lot of these schools have had new ADs over the last few years, but I'm having trouble finding out if they were fired, retired, left mutually, etc.

Have they cut other sports in order to move up?
Yes

Do donors stop giving money?
That I don't know

Do they compromise the goals and mission of the universities?
I'm not sure what you mean by that. In some sense, moving up makes the schools overemphasize athletics, even for just a short time, annoying and upsetting students/alumni

Do they miss the opportunity to host an FCS playoff game?
You would have to ask fans of those teams. I know some UMASS fans definitely miss the FCS days

What is the failure exactly? Just wins and losses?
Wins/Losses, which leads to problems like attendance, not getting good recruits, little media coverage, etc.

Replies in bold

(10-08-2014 09:01 AM)All Dukes_All Day Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 11:04 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Out of curiosity, you guys are saying who cares about JMU Albany besides alumni? Couldn't you argue the same thing for ODU Marshall? Is not like ESPN or any National TV station is knocking down the door for that game. And, don't forget how many teams move up in rank and fail. Teams like FIU, WKU, FAU, UMass, SUNY Buffalo, UAB, Akron, EMU, etc all have little consistent success and are no better than a god FCS team. It seems like everyone talking about moving up just assumes the team will be successful. But a few lodging seasons in the FBS, and I'm not sure how well people are going to show up to watch JMU take on some MAC or Sun Belt or even CUSA school

Poll fans of those schools and ask them their opinion of droping down to "D2" , aka FCS to the majority of the country, and you'll have your answer. I'm not saying they should be happy with their current state, but they'd rather be a bottom feeder "D1" than an elite "D2."

A lot of these schools are ones that just moved up. They know what the FCS is, and depending on the team I don't know if there would always be resistance to moving down.

Sorry for the double post, not sure how to multi quote

TDenver, I think you're looking at this from the view of being a William and Mary fan. FCS and the CAA is the right fit for William and Mary. W&M has solid teams, a great coach and good traditions. The Tribe draws between 7-10k and a few bad years won't send fans away in droves.

JMU on the other hand, is no longer a mid sized public university. JMU has 20k students and has outlayed over 100 million on stadiums, facilities and recreational fields in the last half decade alone. JMU football does not belong in FCS anymore; Staying in the CAA would be an absolute waste of potential and money for JMU.

There are probably two dozen teams in FBS who would be better served in the FCS, but there is a reason twenty teams have moved up in the last two decades and zero teams moved down.

I've mentioned it several times before, mainly in relation to how other schools have ramped up their academics. In the 80s, Maryland was a joke. ANYONE with a C average from a Maryland public high school was guaranteed admission.

Now look at the scores referenced a few posts above and read this quote from a Washington Post article back in 1999.
"U-Va. is much more highly regarded than the U of M," says Joan Levin, a guidance counselor at Montgomery Blair High School in Silver Spring. "So are some of the other state schools like James Madison University and William and Mary".

What did Maryland do to so elevate their academic reputation?

(10-08-2014 09:44 AM)olddawg Wrote:  I've mentioned it several times before, mainly in relation to how other schools have ramped up their academics. In the 80s, Maryland was a joke. ANYONE with a C average from a Maryland public high school was guaranteed admission.

Now look at the scores referenced a few posts above and read this quote from a Washington Post article back in 1999.
"U-Va. is much more highly regarded than the U of M," says Joan Levin, a guidance counselor at Montgomery Blair High School in Silver Spring. "So are some of the other state schools like James Madison University and William and Mary".

What did Maryland do to so elevate their academic reputation?

Its a simple matter of Supply and Demand.

(10-08-2014 09:31 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 08:44 AM)JMUETC Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 11:04 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Out of curiosity, you guys are saying who cares about JMU Albany besides alumni? Couldn't you argue the same thing for ODU Marshall? Is not like ESPN or any National TV station is knocking down the door for that game. And, don't forget how many teams move up in rank and fail. Teams like FIU, WKU, FAU, UMass, SUNY Buffalo, UAB, Akron, EMU, etc all have little consistent success and are no better than a god FCS team. It seems like everyone talking about moving up just assumes the team will be successful. But a few lodging seasons in the FBS, and I'm not sure how well people are going to show up to watch JMU take on some MAC or Sun Belt or even CUSA school

I hear this argument once in a while, that teams move up and fail or regret their move. Just so I understand it better, can you quantify what you mean by that or how this failure or regret manifests itself?

Do these schools lose money and eventually go bankrupt?
Maybe not bankrupt, but some schools cut sports to save money and avoid going bankrupt

They cut sports to meet title IV requirements, is my guess. Are their any documented cases of schools "almost" going bankrupt. The only one I can recall is Oral Roberts university because their president, Oral's son was embezzling millions of dollars to fly around the world and buy fancy curtains.

Do fans stop showing up for games?
Yes. Eastern Michigan pulls 2-4,000 fans per game. That's an FBS team. The F_U teams hit 10k on a good day. A lot of these schools average about what William and Mary does, maybe slightly more, maybe even a little less. Pleny of these teams average 15k fans or less, and some only hit that number due to generous rounding or crazy ticket packages. One school, for example, (I forget which one) was offering a deal where 10 tickets to their game was $30.

I do not support moving up because you think your 2,000 fans will suddenly become 10,000. JMU has been attracting 20K plus per FCS game the last few years despite being just above .500 record wise in the timeframe (just a guess as I can't look it up right now) while playing an uninspiring OOC schedule.

Unless those schools based the move up on suddenly increasing attendance, I don't see how this is a failure. Not great, not ideal, a disappointment, etc. but not a failure.

Do the people who make the decisions to move up get fired?
This one I don't know. Wouldn't surprise me if it's happened, but I can't say for certain. A lot of these schools have had new ADs over the last few years, but I'm having trouble finding out if they were fired, retired, left mutually, etc.

Agree here. I don't know the answer but I read a lot about sports and don't recall ever reading that an AD or president was fired as a direct result of the failure of moving up to FBS

Have they cut other sports in order to move up?
Yes

Title IV requirement most likley. I'd be interested to know if a school cut more sports than they had to to save money, not just to meet Title IV.

Do donors stop giving money?
That I don't know

Don't know either but I suspect rather than stop, they actually increase. Maybe not at the level anticipated but would be surprised if donations went down.

Do they compromise the goals and mission of the universities?
I'm not sure what you mean by that. In some sense, moving up makes the schools overemphasize athletics, even for just a short time, annoying and upsetting students/alumni

My guess is some will always be annoyed but I suspect that many more are pleased with the move up. I have not researched but I can't recall of any schools mission or academic reputation being severely compromised. I suspect you can find some examples (UNC, UGA a few years ago) but those examples are the result of a coach or administrator who puts more emphasis on sports, not necessarily just a move up.

I wonder if some of the schools you mentioned as failures have actually seen their academic profile rise as a result of the move up.

Do they miss the opportunity to host an FCS playoff game?
You would have to ask fans of those teams. I know some UMASS fans definitely miss the FCS days

I have never heard any coach/fan/administrator say out loud that they miss the opportunity to compete in the FCS playoffs. Certainly never heard Jim Tressel say that. I realize they may not say these things in the press for obvious reasons. I think most, if not all, would take the positive trade offs over FCS playoffs.

I think in 3 years when UMASS on campus stadium is complete and they are winning a bit more, you will not hear any UMASS fan saying they wished they were FCS. Faculty perhaps, but not many fans.

What is the failure exactly? Just wins and losses?
Wins/Losses, which leads to problems like attendance, not getting good recruits, little media coverage, etc.

The best FCS teams (with one exception) are already disadvantaged in ALL those areas even when they put together good win/loss records.

Replies in bold

Replies

JMU has been forced by the state of VA to expand enrollment over the last decade and a half or so and at a pretty rapid pace. Hence, it only stands to reason that you have to accept some applicants that you otherwise wouldn't have in the past. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. There's not much anybody could have done about that.

(10-07-2014 11:04 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Out of curiosity, you guys are saying who cares about JMU Albany besides alumni? Couldn't you argue the same thing for ODU Marshall? Is not like ESPN or any National TV station is knocking down the door for that game. And, don't forget how many teams move up in rank and fail. Teams like FIU, WKU, FAU, UMass, SUNY Buffalo, UAB, Akron, EMU, etc all have little consistent success and are no better than a god FCS team. It seems like everyone talking about moving up just assumes the team will be successful. But a few lodging seasons in the FBS, and I'm not sure how well people are going to show up to watch JMU take on some MAC or Sun Belt or even CUSA school

Even though down from 05-12, Marshall has won 127 games from 97-13. That includes being ranked in 4 of those years and #10 in the nation in 1999. Marshall is sitting at 26 in both the AP and coaches poll and if we take care of business we should crack the top 25 come Monday.

Marshall has had players come want to play for us (high 4 star guys) that would have never even looked at us if we was still IAA. That's one of the advantages of being IA.

You are going to counter with "We have a playoff". Yep that you do, Marshall played in the championship 6 times and made the playoffs each year from 87-96. But in the last 5 years there is only 1 bowl that fell below the IAA championship game in the ratings. That was the 2009 Idaho Potato Bowl that featured Idaho and Bowling Green.

I agree there are a few teams that don't belong in IA. But would I trade our IA for IAA if I knew we could win the National Title the next 10 years in a row, not a chance.

BTW CUSA doesn't have a contract with ESPN. They do with CBS Sports, Fox Sports and American Sports Network. The Marshall-ODU game could be seen in 36 states including Alaska and Hawaii.

Not to mention ODU probably got 30k a year in tv profit sharing and cusa teams get over a million each per year. Thatll help build a program, as well as bowl profit sharing etc. Marshall woul, and has this season, made other teams look bad. Marshall is a legitimate top 25 team, and could compete with anyonr. ODU has a good football program and is a fine addition to cusa. Given a few years, this transition period will be forgotten.

Why are you guys here? To proclaim how awesome Marshall is? Or to tell us a bunch of stuff we already know?

Either way, I'd imagine it's better time spent elsewhere. Like the outhouse, or manning the smoldering couch in the front yard.



*Quick check- am I allowed to say that stuff to these guys even though their team is FBS? I still have't gotten that list.

(10-08-2014 07:45 PM)HerdZoned Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 11:04 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Out of curiosity, you guys are saying who cares about JMU Albany besides alumni? Couldn't you argue the same thing for ODU Marshall? Is not like ESPN or any National TV station is knocking down the door for that game. And, don't forget how many teams move up in rank and fail. Teams like FIU, WKU, FAU, UMass, SUNY Buffalo, UAB, Akron, EMU, etc all have little consistent success and are no better than a god FCS team. It seems like everyone talking about moving up just assumes the team will be successful. But a few lodging seasons in the FBS, and I'm not sure how well people are going to show up to watch JMU take on some MAC or Sun Belt or even CUSA school

Even though down from 05-12, Marshall has won 127 games from 97-13. That includes being ranked in 4 of those years and #10 in the nation in 1999. Marshall is sitting at 26 in both the AP and coaches poll and if we take care of business we should crack the top 25 come Monday.

Marshall has had players come want to play for us (high 4 star guys) that would have never even looked at us if we was still IAA. That's one of the advantages of being IA.

You are going to counter with "We have a playoff". Yep that you do, Marshall played in the championship 6 times and made the playoffs each year from 87-96. But in the last 5 years there is only 1 bowl that fell below the IAA championship game in the ratings. That was the 2009 Idaho Potato Bowl that featured Idaho and Bowling Green.

I agree there are a few teams that don't belong in IA. But would I trade our IA for IAA if I knew we could win the National Title the next 10 years in a row, not a chance.

BTW CUSA doesn't have a contract with ESPN. They do with CBS Sports, Fox Sports and American Sports Network. The Marshall-ODU game could be seen in 36 states including Alaska and Hawaii.

My point wasn't really to insult Marshall. Also, I'm not sure your TV stuff is true. This article (http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/de...-for-eags/) mentions that the 2009 FCS championship game drew a 1.52, which is comprable to a lower tier bowl. I can't find data on more recent FCS championship games, though I haven't really looked too hard.

For the 2012 season there were two bowls with viewership below the FCS championship game.
Curiously, only one FCS game, real GSU vs ODU, achieved that coveted 1.0 or above television rating and it was not the FCS NC.
Both of those teams are now FBS.

(10-08-2014 10:37 PM)goherd24herdfans Wrote:  Not to mention ODU probably got 30k a year in tv profit sharing and cusa teams get over a million each per year. Thatll help build a program, as well as bowl profit sharing etc. Marshall woul, and has this season, made other teams look bad. Marshall is a legitimate top 25 team, and could compete with anyonr. ODU has a good football program and is a fine addition to cusa. Given a few years, this transition period will be forgotten.

My rebuttal was due to 1 comment by a WM fan and it should have been just 1 or 2 sentences long:

Quote:I'm not sure how well people are going to show up to watch JMU take on some MAC or Sun Belt or even CUSA school

As a Marshall fan/alum I go to watch Marshall and not the team lined up across the way. Until some people realize that then their fan base will always be lagging behind.

(10-09-2014 06:54 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  For the 2012 season there were two bowls with viewership below the FCS championship game.
Curiously, only one FCS game, real GSU vs ODU, achieved that coveted 1.0 or above television rating and it was not the FCS NC.
Both of those teams are now FBS.

I'd like to see where our 2004 game against Montana would have stacked up at the conclusion of CFB that season. That particular game as well as our matchup against them in 2008 probably had the most fans/alumni for any FCS game ever.