(11-05-2020 08:52 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(11-05-2020 07:52 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(11-04-2020 12:44 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  So many pre-med students at W&M. Experience just isn't the same without a hospital at or near the school. Not sure EVMS is the right situation, but having a medical school would be a huge step up for us.

Not hard to find partnerships with local hospitals to bring them into a consortium for pre-med exposure (Sentara williamsburg, Riverside Williamsburg etc). Regardless, pre-med requirements for true clinical time is essentially zero. It is only recommended that you have observation time so that you know what youre getting into. It does not make you a more competitive applicant per se. Again, remember the Cornell example. Now VA Tech has a similar setup. Their medical schools are nowhere near the main campus. Lastly, 45 minutes drive to EVMS is NOT FAR!!!

I didn't read that as Tribe32 saying EVMS was far. I read it as saying having no hospital near the school wasn't great for all our pre-meds, with the implication that EVMS would be a positive change.

Wasnt trying to fight 32's comments...just trying to set the record straight on these purported hurdles.

Having a med school directly on your campus is great, but that is unrealistic given Williamsburg's small size and its location sandwiched between nearby population centers of Richmond/MCV and Hampton Roads/EVMS. If WM ever wants a medical school, EVMS is the only realistic option.

Let me be more clear. I left out a key word in my post. I should have said "teaching" hospital. I know we already have access to the local ones, but it isn't the same as if we had a relationship like EVMS. My point about not being sold on EVMS was not about the distance. It was more about ratings, etc. Perhaps the partnership could eventually bring the ratings up. Being unbiased, it makes more sense to me for the state of Virginia to create an alignment with ODU, Norfolk State, and Maybe Hampton.

(11-05-2020 09:48 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Let me be more clear. I left out a key word in my post. I should have said "teaching" hospital. I know we already have access to the local ones, but it isn't the same as if we had a relationship like EVMS. My point about not being sold on EVMS was not about the distance. It was more about ratings, etc. Perhaps the partnership could eventually bring the ratings up. Being unbiased, it makes more sense to me for the state of Virginia to create an alignment with ODU, Norfolk State, and Maybe Hampton.

Cant start a med school from scratch and expect it to be in the top 25. EVMS has done well for a 50 year old school. Affiliating with W&M will surely help bring at minimum, an air of improved prestige, but the ability to pool resources should help truly improve things for both. Given the way rankings are tabulated, the medical school rankings may rise without lifting a finger.

EVMS recent gains:
Broke top 50 in Primary Care
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sch...hool-04119

#89 in research
https://www.evms.edu/pulse/archive/evmsm...categories

The new Virginia Tech affiliation was with a school that was arguably worse than EVMS-
Carilion hospital
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sch...sity-04159

New Academic building, paid for largely by donation (second largest in school history)
https://www.evms.edu/about_evms/promise/waitzer_hall/

Largest donation ($15M) in school history supports new institute
https://www.evms.edu/pulse/archive/15mil...titute.php

Wake Forest just merged its Medical School and Hospital with Atrium as they couldn't go it alone after more than 50 years. This train left the station a long time ago and to think that WM could enter this business now doesn't make a lot of sense.

(11-03-2020 10:24 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(11-03-2020 07:33 PM)TribeDeac Wrote:  Medical School Education is terribly expensive and not a money maker. Teaching hospitals are even worse with most running operating deficits. The biggest leadership mistakes WM ever made were letting VCU and ODU spit off and become stand alone institutions. We not compete with those schools for State Funding rather than find ourself the "crown jewel" of a system of 3 campus' with 50K students. We are wise to stay away from a conversation about adding a medical school to WM.

Of course you dont make money off of the students. The money is made in scientific grants and patents as well as by the many alumni with high-incomes who can then donate back to the school.Teaching hospitals are no longer typically owned by the medical schools either, but instead have been sold off to corporate chains, who usually invest in the school and pay many of the salaries of the staff and physicians. Sentara already owns the main teaching hospital of EVMS. If medical schools are such dead weight, why does every major university in the US have one? Are we more similar to Bucknell or Duke, JMU or UVA? Talk about losing out on being a crown jewel...we are letting one of the ONLY ways "up" slip away.

EVMS President "retires" on same day that new Rector of BOV starts.....hmmm... President supposedly wasnt keen on an ODU merger

Looking like a big move one way or the other.

"...We pledge to move quickly, but with great care, to find a new leader who can guide the school through its next phase of growth and build upon our strong foundation....Indeed, we are not content to tread water. We want EVMS to continue to grow and enhance its national reputation. EVMS is a full partner in the creation of a new School of Public Health with Old Dominion University and Norfolk State University with the goal of achieving accreditation for that school in a few years. But there is more that can be achieved...seeking a consultant to assist in assessing the opportunities available to EVMS and to make recommendations to further strengthen our partnerships and alliances"

Well, we had our chance...
https://www.virginiabusiness.com/article...icer-hire/

(03-09-2024 10:07 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(03-06-2024 08:48 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-06-2024 01:52 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(03-06-2024 01:25 PM)tribefootballfan Wrote:  

(03-06-2024 12:18 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  10 years ago, I hadnt even heard of these schools. Staying in the newly re-made CAA is certainly not a move that youd expect a nationally known high-performing top tier research university. Are we still trying to split the difference between the large academics and small liberal arts universities? What feats of academic or athletic importance has the school accomplished in the last 5 years? Feels like Rowe is letting the school sink into a southern version of a New England nobody...only famous for what it what it stood for in the past.

I would say a lot. New separate school of Computer and Data Science is launching in 2025 for starters.

1 and done? What else? This "forward thinking accomplishment" is only following other peer institutions lead. UVA and VT did it 4-5 years ago..Columbia 10+ years ago. It also is primarily a reorganization of departments that previously existed on campus in Arts and Sciences, but i will concede should bring better visibility and funding to them. She could have made a big splash and established a school of engineering to include compsci/data. We also ignored a true medical school asking for us to take on in EVMS. Those would be a big deal.

How closely do you follow happenings at W&M? The EVMS thing was over and done about 10 years ago, well before Rowe was here.

Pretty closely. From my understanding, Reveley was entertaining it and it fizzled during the transition to Rowe. The EVMS collab was started in 2013 and then extended in 2014. Reveley didnt want to pull the trigger, knowing that he was nearing retirement. The presidential search started in 2017. Rowe came in 2018 from Smith, which is one of the old NE liberal arts schools that I referenced as disinterested in growth.

Bringing this over from the Football 2024 thread...

What was the official reasoning from W&M for not going forward with acquiring EVMS? I don't see that linked anywhere. The Bacon's Rebellion article says that EVMS was seeking to become acquired by W&M in 2011-2012, but no other mention of any interest between the two. Everything in your quoted post looks like speculation fueled by personal opinion. W&M and EVMS have an existing partnership that started in 2013 where specific classes offered by W&M count towards EVMS programs, including PA and MD programs. This looks like as far as W&M ever wanted to go.

(03-09-2024 04:49 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-09-2024 10:07 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(03-06-2024 08:48 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-06-2024 01:52 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(03-06-2024 01:25 PM)tribefootballfan Wrote:  I would say a lot. New separate school of Computer and Data Science is launching in 2025 for starters.

1 and done? What else? This "forward thinking accomplishment" is only following other peer institutions lead. UVA and VT did it 4-5 years ago..Columbia 10+ years ago. It also is primarily a reorganization of departments that previously existed on campus in Arts and Sciences, but i will concede should bring better visibility and funding to them. She could have made a big splash and established a school of engineering to include compsci/data. We also ignored a true medical school asking for us to take on in EVMS. Those would be a big deal.

How closely do you follow happenings at W&M? The EVMS thing was over and done about 10 years ago, well before Rowe was here.

Pretty closely. From my understanding, Reveley was entertaining it and it fizzled during the transition to Rowe. The EVMS collab was started in 2013 and then extended in 2014. Reveley didnt want to pull the trigger, knowing that he was nearing retirement. The presidential search started in 2017. Rowe came in 2018 from Smith, which is one of the old NE liberal arts schools that I referenced as disinterested in growth.

Bringing this over from the Football 2024 thread...

What was the official reasoning from W&M for not going forward with acquiring EVMS? I don't see that linked anywhere. The Bacon's Rebellion article says that EVMS was seeking to become acquired by W&M in 2011-2012, but no other mention of any interest between the two. Everything in your quoted post looks like speculation fueled by personal opinion. W&M and EVMS have an existing partnership that started in 2013 where specific classes offered by W&M count towards EVMS programs, including PA and MD programs. This looks like as far as W&M ever wanted to go.

Correct. The question is why not? There were never any official statements about the results of this exploratory venture. The last statements revolved around initial grants being fruitful and then extended into 2014. Then Reveley was leaving and we had no further update, including that toward the negative. It was odd and seemingly left in limbo. These are the only reports that I find:

https://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2012/pro...ger123.php

https://www.wm.edu/sites/evms/

Posting these links here to make it easier to reference:

https://www.pilotonline.com/2013/01/17/w...-merger-2/
This, from 2013, is the last news article I can find that references a merger or acquisition.
"The committee recommended that the schools work together on a “health care delivery science” program that would not only study the legal and financial ramifications of the schools jointly delivering health care to the region, but also pull in the expertise of EVMS partners, specifically Sentara Healthcare."

It goes on to say that a major concern was that EVMS does not own a hospital, which seemed to indicate there were concerns about Sentara's involvement. That lines up with the Bacon's Rebellion story, that was focused on the Sentara part.

This is the EVMS page with links to the emails they sent out to their campus about the process in late 2012.
https://www.evms.edu/evms_news/wm/

Based on all of this, it doesn't look like there was any discussion of W&M acquiring EVMS beyond 2012. Everything after that was discussions about how to develop partnerships between EVMS and W&M, and those partnerships came into existence in 2013 and continue today.

(03-09-2024 05:14 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Posting these links here to make it easier to reference:

https://www.pilotonline.com/2013/01/17/w...-merger-2/
This, from 2013, is the last news article I can find that references a merger or acquisition.
"The committee recommended that the schools work together on a “health care delivery science” program that would not only study the legal and financial ramifications of the schools jointly delivering health care to the region, but also pull in the expertise of EVMS partners, specifically Sentara Healthcare."

It goes on to say that a major concern was that EVMS does not own a hospital, which seemed to indicate there were concerns about Sentara's involvement. That lines up with the Bacon's Rebellion story, that was focused on the Sentara part.

This is the EVMS page with links to the emails they sent out to their campus about the process in late 2012.
https://www.evms.edu/evms_news/wm/

W&M deserve
Based on all of this, it doesn't look like there was any discussion of W&M acquiring EVMS beyond 2012. Everything after that was discussions about how to develop partnerships between EVMS and W&M, and those partnerships came into existence in 2013 and continue today.

The failure to proceed with the merger resulted from conservative leadership, much like Dr. Paschall's decision not to join ACC. These moves could have changed the landscape of W&M.

Yeah, again, summaries of these committees are nowhere to be found. It is uncommon and less desireable for medical schools to own hospitals. Those that still do tend to hemorrhage money and there has been a long-standing trend to allow corporate entities to take over. Georgetown is owned by Medstar. Columbia and Cornell by New York Presbyterian. Many of those that seem to be owned by universities are actually owned by similarly named corporate entities that are separate from the university (similar to the WM Real Estate Foundation).

I have no authoritative knowledge on this, but it was always a point of inquiry for me when the fundraisers came calling. They suggested that it was Reveley's call, and quoted him as saying, "Sometimes you date a girl and find out she's not for you."

Take that for what it's worth.

(03-09-2024 05:50 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Yeah, again, summaries of these committees are nowhere to be found. It is uncommon and less desireable for medical schools to own hospitals. Those that still do tend to hemorrhage money and there has been a long-standing trend to allow corporate entities to take over. Georgetown is owned by Medstar. Columbia and Cornell by New York Presbyterian. Many of those that seem to be owned by universities are actually owned by similarly named corporate entities that are separate from the university (similar to the WM Real Estate Foundation).

It may well have been that the hospitals in question were owned by Sentara, and that there was a significant risk if Sentara was not willing to be a partner at the right price. That seems likely given what information we have available. Have you sent email to the President's office or to the BOV asking for more information, or specifically the committee results?

(03-09-2024 07:34 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-09-2024 05:50 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Yeah, again, summaries of these committees are nowhere to be found. It is uncommon and less desireable for medical schools to own hospitals. Those that still do tend to hemorrhage money and there has been a long-standing trend to allow corporate entities to take over. Georgetown is owned by Medstar. Columbia and Cornell by New York Presbyterian. Many of those that seem to be owned by universities are actually owned by similarly named corporate entities that are separate from the university (similar to the WM Real Estate Foundation).

It may well have been that the hospitals in question were owned by Sentara, and that there was a significant risk if Sentara was not willing to be a partner at the right price. That seems likely given what information we have available. Have you sent email to the President's office or to the BOV asking for more information, or specifically the committee results?

A risk to whom? EVMS and WM are state-owned. Sentara owns the hospital, but would negotiate with the state. This is not a unique situation, in that VT just did the same thing with Carillion and the fledgling VCOM. I did email awhile ago and was given a bland answer that was hardly revealing...mostly stating something along the idea that "we didnt think it was a good idea." Sent by Rowe's assistant, not her directly. I emailed the BOV with no response. I emailed the president of EVMS (who is now retired) who indicated they were still interested in WM over ODU.

(03-10-2024 07:12 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(03-09-2024 07:34 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-09-2024 05:50 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Yeah, again, summaries of these committees are nowhere to be found. It is uncommon and less desireable for medical schools to own hospitals. Those that still do tend to hemorrhage money and there has been a long-standing trend to allow corporate entities to take over. Georgetown is owned by Medstar. Columbia and Cornell by New York Presbyterian. Many of those that seem to be owned by universities are actually owned by similarly named corporate entities that are separate from the university (similar to the WM Real Estate Foundation).

It may well have been that the hospitals in question were owned by Sentara, and that there was a significant risk if Sentara was not willing to be a partner at the right price. That seems likely given what information we have available. Have you sent email to the President's office or to the BOV asking for more information, or specifically the committee results?

A risk to whom? EVMS and WM are state-owned. Sentara owns the hospital, but would negotiate with the state. This is not a unique situation, in that VT just did the same thing with Carillion and the fledgling VCOM. I did email awhile ago and was given a bland answer that was hardly revealing...mostly stating something along the idea that "we didnt think it was a good idea." Sent by Rowe's assistant, not her directly. I emailed the BOV with no response. I emailed the president of EVMS (who is now retired) who indicated they were still interested in WM over ODU.

I was not on the committee 12 years ago. I'm making guesses according to the articles we have in this thread. Based on those articles, it was determined 12 years ago that there was too much risk and not enough reward. From the Bacon's Rebellion article it sounds like the risk might have been about Sentara specifically. Basically, not that EVMS didn't own the hospital, but that Sentara did. The last part is entirely speculation on my part though.

Maybe try FOIA requests for the committee report? I'm not entirely sure that Rowe would have any specific information to share, since she wasn't at W&M 12 years ago.