(10-13-2013 01:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 12:27 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 10:34 AM)westmc9th Wrote:  If asked most UNC fans would rather be in the conference that has the best basketball which is hands down the ACC. Secondly we would rather be in the conference that has Duke, UVA, Clemson and probably State as well. Just because of longtime traditions we hold closer than does Maryland.

If anything happened to the ACC I would prefer the SEC, but I'd like Duke to come along

And that's why UNC isn't coming to the SEC. The SEC doesn't want Duke. I think, given UNC's insistence on Duke, that NCST is more likely than UNC at this point.

I bet the SEC would love to add Duke and UNC as a package.

I'm not "Mr. Inside Knowledge" but the chatter seemed to be that the SEC wants UNC, but isn't going to take Duke, a smallish private school with very iffy football.

I agree. The SEC is a football conference. Duke is a basketball school and is unlikely to make the investments necessary to credibly compete in the SEC.

If you were the SEC commissioner, AND there are two spots, here are your choices. Assumptions: South Carolina blocks Clemson and Florida blocks Florida State/Miami.

1) Make a play for Oklahoma and Oklahoma State
2) Make a play for Virginia Tech and NC State
3) Make a play for Virginia Tech and West Virginia
4) Make a play for WV and NC State
5) Make a play for UNC and Duke

If the SEC tries to expand again, I see a VT/NCST combo as more desirable than UNC/Duke. I also see (in the event the VA legislature blocks VT moving without UVA) WV/NCST as more likely than UNC/Duke. Either way, I don't see the round SEC logo being installed at Cameron Indoor anytime soon.

(10-13-2013 03:12 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 01:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 12:27 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 10:34 AM)westmc9th Wrote:  If asked most UNC fans would rather be in the conference that has the best basketball which is hands down the ACC. Secondly we would rather be in the conference that has Duke, UVA, Clemson and probably State as well. Just because of longtime traditions we hold closer than does Maryland.

If anything happened to the ACC I would prefer the SEC, but I'd like Duke to come along

And that's why UNC isn't coming to the SEC. The SEC doesn't want Duke. I think, given UNC's insistence on Duke, that NCST is more likely than UNC at this point.

I bet the SEC would love to add Duke and UNC as a package.

I'm not "Mr. Inside Knowledge" but the chatter seemed to be that the SEC wants UNC, but isn't going to take Duke, a smallish private school with very iffy football.

I agree. The SEC is a football conference. Duke is a basketball school and is unlikely to make the investments necessary to credibly compete in the SEC.

If you were the SEC commissioner, AND there are two spots, here are your choices. Assumptions: South Carolina blocks Clemson and Florida blocks Florida State/Miami.

1) Make a play for Oklahoma and Oklahoma State
2) Make a play for Virginia Tech and NC State
3) Make a play for Virginia Tech and West Virginia
4) Make a play for WV and NC State
5) Make a play for UNC and Duke

If the SEC tries to expand again, I see a VT/NCST combo as more desirable than UNC/Duke. I also see (in the event the VA legislature blocks VT moving without UVA) WV/NCST as more likely than UNC/Duke. Either way, I don't see the round SEC logo being installed at Cameron Indoor anytime soon.

Tom everybody has their sources and there were many different opinions being expressed at the time the discussions were at their most serious juncture, but some I know in Birmingham said that the first scenario tendered was for 3 Carolina schools (UNC, Duke, NCSt.). The SEC balked at that notion. At the time Florida State, Clemson, and N.C. State were believed to have safe landing spots in the Big 12 if they needed them. My understanding was that Slive was willing to take Duke and U.N.C. together to both nail down North Carolina as a market, enhance SEC academics, and to try to bolster the Winter lineup on the SECN. We thought initially that it would be a Virginia school and a Carolina school so Virginia Tech and N.C. State made sense. Especially since Virginia was leaning Big 10 and we figured that U.N.C. and UVa might move together. When U.N.C. expressed interest in the event the ACC blew apart we quickly learned that they wanted a safe landing spot for Duke as well.

At that time 16 was the target goal so a combo of Duke and U.N.C. trumped a combo of Virginia Tech and N.C. State for all the reasons I listed above. I think if the conference felt that the ACC was threatened today that we would try to make an offer that the Big 10 might not be willing to match. U.N.C., Duke, Virginia, Va Tech, N.C. State, and F.S.U..

If N.C.State or Duke had another soft landing spot, then Clemson would likely be in the mix to solidify the footprint.

Personally speaking, I would have to wonder if Duke might not be better suited in the Ivy League. It wouldn't hurt their basketball, football is not a priority, and culturally they are better suited for it than any other conference.

I doubt that the ACC ever implodes now. So the points are moot. But if it ever did the SEC would find itself in an extremely conflicted position. The State governments of Florida, South Carolina, Georgia, and Kentucky would be placing an inordinate amount of pressure upon us to accommodate Georgia Tech, F.S.U., Clemson and Louisville. Out of those only Georgia Tech would fit the profile of the Big 10 and none of the rest would be viable candidates elsewhere. Florida State I think the SEC would accommodate just as a defensive move.

The issue for the conference under that scenario would be needs versus politics. It might take moving to 24 to solve the problem.

All good points, JR. I remember this coming up in a discussion months ago, and UNC/Duke as a package was a real option. I agree, though, that the IVY League would be the best spot for Duke if the door was ever cracked open; William & Mary would be a good add to make 10 if they wished.

(10-13-2013 01:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 12:27 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 10:34 AM)westmc9th Wrote:  If asked most UNC fans would rather be in the conference that has the best basketball which is hands down the ACC. Secondly we would rather be in the conference that has Duke, UVA, Clemson and probably State as well. Just because of longtime traditions we hold closer than does Maryland.

If anything happened to the ACC I would prefer the SEC, but I'd like Duke to come along

And that's why UNC isn't coming to the SEC. The SEC doesn't want Duke. I think, given UNC's insistence on Duke, that NCST is more likely than UNC at this point.

I bet the SEC would love to add Duke and UNC as a package.

Duke and UNC don't have the football stadiums to support SEC level football crowds. If they think competing in the ACC is hard enough wait until they move to the SEC.

I know its been assumed a non-starter before but what about UNC and Duke to the B1G? Duke can be the eastern counterpart to Northwestern for the B1G.

Duke not drawing crap for football and a 33,000 seater is not too big of an issue in the B1G. Durham is too out of the way for most B1G traveling contingencies.

B1G to 18 (Duke, UNC, UVA, GT).

B1G East: Ohio State, Michigan, Indiana, Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke

That would be a choice division for all the schools involved, IMO.

That assumes that coming to the SEC those programs wouldn't improve.

(10-13-2013 06:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Given that the ACC and UNC are now stable this is a moot point in terms of broader implications for realignment, but I found this blurb from the Charlotte Observer article talking about the threat the ACC faced in the days after Maryland's departure interesting. I've heard many times that UNC considers itself a much more sophisticated and progressive institution than the SEC schools and therefore its supporters would rather join the B1G than SEC. But this exchange, though not a scientific sample, indicates otherwise:

"The emails – many coming after UNC fans on the message boards at InsideCarolina.com organized a push to fill Cunningham’s inbox – shared roughly the same sentiment: Lead the Tar Heels out of the crumbling ACC, to a better place. The overwhelming majority of fans preferred moving to the SEC. Among the more than 150 pages of emails that Cunningham received in the 10 days after Maryland’s announcement, only one email favored joining the Big Ten."



Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/10/10/3...rylink=cpy

The fan base would have have chosen the SEC over the B1G and so would have the entire football side of the athletic department.... BUT, Carolina would have probably gone to the B1G which was the overwhelming choice of the administration and faculty if a move had to be made.

(10-13-2013 08:32 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 06:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Given that the ACC and UNC are now stable this is a moot point in terms of broader implications for realignment, but I found this blurb from the Charlotte Observer article talking about the threat the ACC faced in the days after Maryland's departure interesting. I've heard many times that UNC considers itself a much more sophisticated and progressive institution than the SEC schools and therefore its supporters would rather join the B1G than SEC. But this exchange, though not a scientific sample, indicates otherwise:

"The emails – many coming after UNC fans on the message boards at InsideCarolina.com organized a push to fill Cunningham’s inbox – shared roughly the same sentiment: Lead the Tar Heels out of the crumbling ACC, to a better place. The overwhelming majority of fans preferred moving to the SEC. Among the more than 150 pages of emails that Cunningham received in the 10 days after Maryland’s announcement, only one email favored joining the Big Ten."



Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/10/10/3...rylink=cpy

The fan base would have have chosen the SEC over the B1G and so would have the entire football side of the athletic department.... BUT, Carolina would have probably gone to the B1G which was the overwhelming choice of the administration and faculty if a move had to be made.

XLance I too think the point is now moot, but in retrospect, and given the released communications, it was clear that the administration at North Carolina was in dialog with the SEC office, and there was no mention of similar communications with the Big 10. So that alone seems to negate your claim as to the administrations leanings. Besides, no institution can fair well by making decisions contrary to their constituency. On the SEC end the word was Duke would come along as the price. Which for the SEC would have been a bargain even if they don't fill football stadiums.

But now the issue is to the West and not the East. Therefore, I don't really understand the fascination with the subject. It kind of feels like a couple of guys in mid life crisis talking about the hot chicks they should have married instead of the bride of their youth. Nothing happened with the hot chicks and talking about it at mid life might cost you your relationship with the one who was willing to put up with you. The ACC is still together and to my way of thinking talking about who was going to be your escape choice serves no purpose but to make your old relationships less trusting of you. I think it's too bad this came out in the trial.

(10-13-2013 08:39 PM)JRsec Wrote:  it was clear that the administration at North Carolina was in dialog with the SEC office, and there was no mention of similar communications with the Big 10. So that alone seems to negate your claim as to the administrations leanings.

Given that Delany and Mary Sue Coleman are NC grads, the direct telepathic line to B1G is always on... No need for email. Contacting the SEC is just a necessary formality to please the fanatics.

(10-13-2013 08:50 PM)SeaBlue Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 08:39 PM)JRsec Wrote:  it was clear that the administration at North Carolina was in dialog with the SEC office, and there was no mention of similar communications with the Big 10. So that alone seems to negate your claim as to the administrations leanings.

Given that Delany and Mary Sue Coleman are NC grads, the direct telepathic line to B1G is always on... No need for email. Contacting the SEC is just a necessary formality to please the fanatics.

Nice troll attempt. I am assuming that when you were in Michigan you lived below the bridge? As a former resident of the U.P. it is therefore my right to refer to all who live below the Mackinac bridge as trolls. But back to the point, I would feel comfortable assuming that all phone records were subpoenaed as well. And you do know that Mike Slive went to UVa and has strong relations with U.N.C. also?

(10-13-2013 08:56 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Nice troll attempt. I am assuming that when you were in Michigan you lived below the bridge?

8 miles from Terry's Dome.

My point is that B1G is quite good at stealth. Phone and email records are for amateurs.

(10-13-2013 09:06 PM)SeaBlue Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 08:56 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Nice troll attempt. I am assuming that when you were in Michigan you lived below the bridge?

8 miles from Terry's Dome.

My point is that B1G is quite good at stealth. Phone and email records are for amateurs.

Yes, Delany is very good at keeping things close to the vest. Slive is too. And most of the SEC's official talks are never revealed. The SEC jet is not used when such face to face conversations are held. Usually it is a private jet that logs out to fly on business. These trips are never mentioned and are held on secluded resort sites preferably in the off season. I can think of one that was held in West Virginia, but didn't involve the Mountaineers. The leaks in the SEC are usually after the deals are done and are to get the public accustomed to news they might not be ready to receive with an open mind. A&M was a quick release like Rutgers and Maryland. Mizzou was a process of leaks (followed by a premature announcement that was unintentional) and then a presser. So the Big 10 hasn't cornered the market on stealth.

P.S. I lived in the U.P. about 50 years ago, so you'll have to familiarize me with Terry's Dome.

(10-13-2013 08:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  That assumes that coming to the SEC those programs wouldn't improve.

They would improve. UNC boosters would ante up to be competitive in SEC football. Duke would be like Stanford; they'd struggle for awhile and then some super-rich alum(s) would donate enough money to rebuild their stadium, upgrade football facilities, hire their equivalent of Harbaugh, etc.

(10-13-2013 09:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 09:06 PM)SeaBlue Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 08:56 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Nice troll attempt. I am assuming that when you were in Michigan you lived below the bridge?

8 miles from Terry's Dome.

My point is that B1G is quite good at stealth. Phone and email records are for amateurs.

Yes, Delany is very good at keeping things close to the vest. Slive is too. And most of the SEC's official talks are never revealed. The SEC jet is not used when such face to face conversations are held. Usually it is a private jet that logs out to fly on business. These trips are never mentioned and are held on secluded resort sites preferably in the off season. I can think of one that was held in West Virginia, but didn't involve the Mountaineers. The leaks in the SEC are usually after the deals are done and are to get the public accustomed to news they might not be ready to receive with an open mind. A&M was a quick release like Rutgers and Maryland. Mizzou was a process of leaks (followed by a premature announcement that was unintentional) and then a presser. So the Big 10 hasn't cornered the market on stealth.

P.S. I lived in the U.P. about 50 years ago, so you'll have to familiarize me with Terry's Dome.

My guess is that he lived or lives in or near Niles, Michigan.

That is about eight miles north of Notre Dame.

(10-13-2013 09:33 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 09:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 09:06 PM)SeaBlue Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 08:56 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Nice troll attempt. I am assuming that when you were in Michigan you lived below the bridge?

8 miles from Terry's Dome.

My point is that B1G is quite good at stealth. Phone and email records are for amateurs.

Yes, Delany is very good at keeping things close to the vest. Slive is too. And most of the SEC's official talks are never revealed. The SEC jet is not used when such face to face conversations are held. Usually it is a private jet that logs out to fly on business. These trips are never mentioned and are held on secluded resort sites preferably in the off season. I can think of one that was held in West Virginia, but didn't involve the Mountaineers. The leaks in the SEC are usually after the deals are done and are to get the public accustomed to news they might not be ready to receive with an open mind. A&M was a quick release like Rutgers and Maryland. Mizzou was a process of leaks (followed by a premature announcement that was unintentional) and then a presser. So the Big 10 hasn't cornered the market on stealth.

P.S. I lived in the U.P. about 50 years ago, so you'll have to familiarize me with Terry's Dome.

My guess is that he lived or lives in or near Niles, Michigan.

That is about eight miles north of Notre Dame.

Thanks Terry, I lived in Sault Sainte Marie. Back then we just drove freely from the Michigan side of the city across the bridge to the Canadian side. It was great. When I took my family back up there a few years ago we needed passports to cross.

For a while I lived just over a mile away from the north side of the campus. Couldn't take any more...

For everyone that wants/wanted UNC in the SEC... Aren't there a number of Olympic sports that the SEC doesn't play much or at all?

(10-13-2013 09:44 PM)SeaBlue Wrote:  For a while I lived just over a mile away from the north side of the campus. Couldn't take any more...

For everyone that wants/wanted UNC in the SEC... Aren't there a number of Olympic sports that the SEC doesn't play much or at all?

Lacrosse is the big one, but most of the SEC schools have lacrosse teams that exist at the club level. Auburn does. The traditional Olympic sports we excel in (indoor and outdoor Track & Field, Swimming & Diving, and women's gymnastics). Auburn just won the equestrian national championship. If there are any we lack and we wanted to be accommodating (and we would) it wouldn't take much from our Athletic budgets to do so. Many down here would love for wrestling to be added back. Men's soccer could be introduced. Sculling and rowing exist at the club levels as well. I don't think it would be a big deal. Maybe we could introduce them to Bass Fishing which is also an SEC club sport.

(10-13-2013 09:51 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 09:44 PM)SeaBlue Wrote:  For a while I lived just over a mile away from the north side of the campus. Couldn't take any more...

For everyone that wants/wanted UNC in the SEC... Aren't there a number of Olympic sports that the SEC doesn't play much or at all?

Lacrosse is the big one, but most of the SEC schools have lacrosse teams that exist at the club level. Auburn does. The traditional Olympic sports we excel in (indoor and outdoor Track & Field, Swimming & Diving, and women's gymnastics). Auburn just won the equestrian national championship. If there are any we lack and we wanted to be accommodating (and we would) it wouldn't take much from our Athletic budgets to do so. Many down here would love for wrestling to be added back. Men's soccer could be introduced. Sculling and rowing exist at the club levels as well. I don't think it would be a big deal. Maybe we could introduce them to Bass Fishing which is also an SEC club sport.

And in the FWIW department, 13 of the SEC's 14 schools play club hockey. Three play at the Division II level -- Missouri, Texas A&M and Kentucky -- while the other 10 are Division III. Only LSU does not have a hockey team.

http://sechchockey.com/

(10-13-2013 08:30 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Why is it difficult to believe that those UNC fans wanted no part of the Big Ten?

There are three levels of UNC Fan:

1. The bottom level is the UNC Wal-Mart Fan - No Connection With The University, Just Like T-Shirts In Wal-Mart And Have No Pull Inside The University.

2. The actual graduate base of which there are about 220K.

3. The powers that be - the folks that make decisions and don't give a damn about what groups 1 and 2 think.

Group one wants the SEC because it fits their socio-economic ideology in NC. Group two would be split 60/40 in favor of the B10 as a good number of that group can not fathom or support membership with Kentucky, Ole Miss, MSU, or Arkansas. (Yes it's snobbery). Group one are the super snobs and would drop over dead at a move to the SEC. You will never read an email from a group one person. You will rarely read a group 2 email from a group 2 person with any influence.

(10-13-2013 04:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 03:12 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 01:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 12:27 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 10:34 AM)westmc9th Wrote:  If asked most UNC fans would rather be in the conference that has the best basketball which is hands down the ACC. Secondly we would rather be in the conference that has Duke, UVA, Clemson and probably State as well. Just because of longtime traditions we hold closer than does Maryland.

If anything happened to the ACC I would prefer the SEC, but I'd like Duke to come along

And that's why UNC isn't coming to the SEC. The SEC doesn't want Duke. I think, given UNC's insistence on Duke, that NCST is more likely than UNC at this point.

I bet the SEC would love to add Duke and UNC as a package.

I'm not "Mr. Inside Knowledge" but the chatter seemed to be that the SEC wants UNC, but isn't going to take Duke, a smallish private school with very iffy football.

I agree. The SEC is a football conference. Duke is a basketball school and is unlikely to make the investments necessary to credibly compete in the SEC.

If you were the SEC commissioner, AND there are two spots, here are your choices. Assumptions: South Carolina blocks Clemson and Florida blocks Florida State/Miami.

1) Make a play for Oklahoma and Oklahoma State
2) Make a play for Virginia Tech and NC State
3) Make a play for Virginia Tech and West Virginia
4) Make a play for WV and NC State
5) Make a play for UNC and Duke

If the SEC tries to expand again, I see a VT/NCST combo as more desirable than UNC/Duke. I also see (in the event the VA legislature blocks VT moving without UVA) WV/NCST as more likely than UNC/Duke. Either way, I don't see the round SEC logo being installed at Cameron Indoor anytime soon.

Tom everybody has their sources and there were many different opinions being expressed at the time the discussions were at their most serious juncture, but some I know in Birmingham said that the first scenario tendered was for 3 Carolina schools (UNC, Duke, NCSt.). The SEC balked at that notion. At the time Florida State, Clemson, and N.C. State were believed to have safe landing spots in the Big 12 if they needed them. My understanding was that Slive was willing to take Duke and U.N.C. together to both nail down North Carolina as a market, enhance SEC academics, and to try to bolster the Winter lineup on the SECN. We thought initially that it would be a Virginia school and a Carolina school so Virginia Tech and N.C. State made sense. Especially since Virginia was leaning Big 10 and we figured that U.N.C. and UVa might move together. When U.N.C. expressed interest in the event the ACC blew apart we quickly learned that they wanted a safe landing spot for Duke as well.

At that time 16 was the target goal so a combo of Duke and U.N.C. trumped a combo of Virginia Tech and N.C. State for all the reasons I listed above. I think if the conference felt that the ACC was threatened today that we would try to make an offer that the Big 10 might not be willing to match. U.N.C., Duke, Virginia, Va Tech, N.C. State, and F.S.U..

If N.C.State or Duke had another soft landing spot, then Clemson would likely be in the mix to solidify the footprint.

Personally speaking, I would have to wonder if Duke might not be better suited in the Ivy League. It wouldn't hurt their basketball, football is not a priority, and culturally they are better suited for it than any other conference.

I doubt that the ACC ever implodes now. So the points are moot. But if it ever did the SEC would find itself in an extremely conflicted position. The State governments of Florida, South Carolina, Georgia, and Kentucky would be placing an inordinate amount of pressure upon us to accommodate Georgia Tech, F.S.U., Clemson and Louisville. Out of those only Georgia Tech would fit the profile of the Big 10 and none of the rest would be viable candidates elsewhere. Florida State I think the SEC would accommodate just as a defensive move.

The issue for the conference under that scenario would be needs versus politics. It might take moving to 24 to solve the problem.

You are quite correct, Duke is better suited to the Ivy League. And eliminating their football program would be a boon to UNC and NC State. Duke made decisions to de-emphasize football in 1962 and took the ACC with them. It took the ACC 15 years to recover. Duke de-emphasized football again in 1989 when Spurrier left for Florida.

However, Duke has been a conference member with the rest of us since 1927 - that's almost 85 years and the Ivy League would be scared of Duke in an athletic sense. Bill and Mary are not at the Ivy League academic level, in fact, Davidson might be a better Ivy fit, but two teams from NC into the IVY - not going to happen unless the Ivy wanted to grow to 12 and in that case, they would need to add Duke, John's Hopkins, and then perhaps Case-Western or Carnegie Mellon, or Emory, or Davidson.

(10-13-2013 09:44 PM)SeaBlue Wrote:  For a while I lived just over a mile away from the north side of the campus. Couldn't take any more...

For everyone that wants/wanted UNC in the SEC... Aren't there a number of Olympic sports that the SEC doesn't play much or at all?

The loss to the Michiana area when you moved must have been palpable. :)