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Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
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eaglewraith Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-14-2013 04:23 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  This Brent Davis garbage has to go. I want us with Ellison under center next year. Fred Swope at bback killing teams. What some of the "Oregon" love folk don't realize is that the pass will be far more effective under center then out of the gun with Ellison.

We refuse to pass out of the flex though. We also refuse to "set up" anything other than how we let Chatty overpursue to the motion side this year and countered/reversed out of it. We have CB's playing 10 yards off of WR's even when we're in shotgun cause no one respects our ability to pass. Ellison isn't making the greatest reads right now due to inexperience, but there's a lot of stuff open when we're running the shotgun stuff. You might as well get used to it because the offense is not going to look the same as it did during the PJ/Sewak days.

You can power run out of the shotgun. We've just got to get better at the presnap reads and at the mesh on the inside/outside zone. We also need to bring back the tempo philosophy that we scrapped.
10-15-2013 07:14 AM
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eagleskins Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
You cannot run power out of the shotgun. The bback dive out of the shotgun is far less effective due to the fullback getting the ball 4 yards behind the LOS with no head of steam. The triple option out of the gun is basically a double option. That said, we are not using our abacks at all this season. We have limited depth there, but those guys need to be getting the ball on the perimeter far more. I think Ellison under center is the equivalent of JR Revere. Deadly.
10-16-2013 03:09 AM
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eaglewraith Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-16-2013 03:09 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  You cannot run power out of the shotgun. The bback dive out of the shotgun is far less effective due to the fullback getting the ball 4 yards behind the LOS with no head of steam. The triple option out of the gun is basically a double option. That said, we are not using our abacks at all this season. We have limited depth there, but those guys need to be getting the ball on the perimeter far more. I think Ellison under center is the equivalent of JR Revere. Deadly.

There are teams that do it all the time. Hell ULL did it all over WKU's face last night in a pistol set. Running an inside/outside zone read is more effective when the QB/RB move in the same direction at the mesh to further draw in defenders before handing off/keeping. It's not done standing still like we do in the flex. Besides, to have a clean mesh in the flex, you HAVE to fire off the ball and get a push on the DL otherwise it collapses. Our QB doesn't step back, he stands up. If defenders are in the mesh, we have big big problems. That's an issue we're dealing with a lot this year, and the shotgun gives us some breathing room. Besides, in a pistol, you're getting the same quick dive just with a little more space and a better chance to cut outside if it's open.

Come on man, you watch a lot of football. You should know there's more than one way to skin a cat.
10-16-2013 07:14 AM
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Hail The Blue Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-16-2013 03:09 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  You cannot run power out of the shotgun. The bback dive out of the shotgun is far less effective due to the fullback getting the ball 4 yards behind the LOS with no head of steam.

Completely disagree. You most certainly can run power out of the gun.

Quote: The triple option out of the gun is basically a double option. That said, we are not using our abacks at all this season. We have limited depth there, but those guys need to be getting the ball on the perimeter far more.

Completely agree that they need to get the ball more. I think that has more to do with Mckinnon always being hesitant to pitch the ball (even last year) than it does with the formation being use. Ellison is pretty new, and the pitch takes time to master, so he gets a pass. McKinnon should be pitching all over the place now, but he chooses to keep it.
10-16-2013 07:52 AM
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eagleskins Offline
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RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
You cannot run the power out of the gun with the effectiveness as under center. It is not even a dive at the point, really.
10-17-2013 06:30 AM
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eaglewraith Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-17-2013 06:30 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  You cannot run the power out of the gun with the effectiveness as under center. It is not even a dive at the point, really.

Run pistol. You've got your dive back.
10-17-2013 06:35 AM
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The4thOption Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-16-2013 07:14 AM)eaglewraith Wrote:  
(10-16-2013 03:09 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  You cannot run power out of the shotgun. The bback dive out of the shotgun is far less effective due to the fullback getting the ball 4 yards behind the LOS with no head of steam. The triple option out of the gun is basically a double option. That said, we are not using our abacks at all this season. We have limited depth there, but those guys need to be getting the ball on the perimeter far more. I think Ellison under center is the equivalent of JR Revere. Deadly.

There are teams that do it all the time. Hell ULL did it all over WKU's face last night in a pistol set. Running an inside/outside zone read is more effective when the QB/RB move in the same direction at the mesh to further draw in defenders before handing off/keeping. It's not done standing still like we do in the flex. Besides, to have a clean mesh in the flex, you HAVE to fire off the ball and get a push on the DL otherwise it collapses. Our QB doesn't step back, he stands up. If defenders are in the mesh, we have big big problems. That's an issue we're dealing with a lot this year, and the shotgun gives us some breathing room. Besides, in a pistol, you're getting the same quick dive just with a little more space and a better chance to cut outside if it's open.

Come on man, you watch a lot of football. You should know there's more than one way to skin a cat.


Agreed there is more than one way to do it. I think the pistol is better than the shot gun simply because of a quicker hit to the line and less loss of yardage if it is blown up.

But you hit a few things on the head here. IF the defense is able to jump the gap and blow up the mesh consistently - You gotta make some adjustments - if the LB is doing it - we got to be able to have a quick hitter pass to the spot he vacated so he has something else to think about. Moving to the pistol or shot gun can be a temp fix, but if the defender is getting through the gap - THEN we are looking at a loss of 4 to 7 yards if they blow that mesh up. I never have like the idea of having to run 7 yards just to get back to ground zero. Even when the option is blown up at the line - it is usually a no gainer - a break even play.

This entire thing comes down to the OL - the precious trenches where this game of inches is lost or won. The HAWGS have GOT to - GOT TO get a push. We aren't getting that right now like we used to. I hope our recruiting power increases to help us there. If we don't have defenders able to jump the gap blowing the mesh up, and our OL isn't getting beat and pushed back like WKU did to us at Paulson in 2002 in our 3 point Semi-final loss - then the Flex will have a good day. Assuming of curse that we are making the right reads, the "wide blockers" are taking out their man, and we don't put the ball on the turf.

Given an OL that gets a push on almost every play - I'd take the Flexbone over any other formation. But - I like having something else to go to if we need it. My fear is that we might spend too much time working on everything else instead of perfecting our Flexbone 3-0. Not saying that is what we are doing, but you know the old saying.. "Jack of all trades, Master of none" - Just concerned about that.
10-17-2013 11:34 AM
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The4thOption Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-17-2013 06:30 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  You cannot run the power out of the gun with the effectiveness as under center. It is not even a dive at the point, really.

What is your definition of running "power"?


On another note:
Going to go ahead and agree that I don't call the FB up the middle a real "Dive" from the pistol or shotgun.
10-17-2013 11:39 AM
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eagleskins Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-17-2013 11:39 AM)The4thOption Wrote:  
(10-17-2013 06:30 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  You cannot run the power out of the gun with the effectiveness as under center. It is not even a dive at the point, really.

What is your definition of running "power"?


On another note:
Going to go ahead and agree that I don't call the FB up the middle a real "Dive" from the pistol or shotgun.

Power is the fullback with a head of steam hitting the line almost instantaneously. Oline does not fire off the ball with anywhere near the ferocity out of the gun. The dive is the biggest weapon by far in the flexbone.
10-18-2013 04:54 AM
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eaglewraith Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-18-2013 04:54 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  
(10-17-2013 11:39 AM)The4thOption Wrote:  
(10-17-2013 06:30 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  You cannot run the power out of the gun with the effectiveness as under center. It is not even a dive at the point, really.

What is your definition of running "power"?


On another note:
Going to go ahead and agree that I don't call the FB up the middle a real "Dive" from the pistol or shotgun.

Power is the fullback with a head of steam hitting the line almost instantaneously. Oline does not fire off the ball with anywhere near the ferocity out of the gun. The dive is the biggest weapon by far in the flexbone.

Uh, if it's a run play then yes they do. If you're zone blocking either way, it doesn't matter. We honestly need to start getting rid of the large amount of cut blocks we use. The rules are starting to work against us with blocking below the waist. The time to adjust to that is now before we're up the creek without a paddle using an illegal blocking scheme. We've already been called on illegal blocks below the waist several times this year.

The biggest weapon in our offense is spreading the field. We've been spoiled by Adrian Peterson and Jermaine Austin. We should be relying on the dive to get 4-5 yards whenever we need it and that's it. The B-Back shouldn't be the feature of our offense. Our weapons should be on the outside, making the defense respect all areas of the field. It's obvious that we are going to hit that B-Back Dive button all game so teams just bottle us up inside on defense. We've been running into 9 man fronts for the majority of the year.

2011 was a great year for our offense because we KNEW the QB wasn't a runner, so if the dive wasn't there we made sure to get the ball outside quick. 3 All-American OL helped in that regard, as our interior blocking hasn't been that good and our perimeter blocking has started getting weaker after losing some of the feature A-Backs we had back then. Defenses respected what we did on the edge that year and you saw how much they were worried about it when NDSU tipped the entire defense to the pre-snap flow and put multiple defenders in the option lanes. For some reason though we refused to counter out of it or throw into the areas of the field vacated by the defense.

These are the areas we need to get smarter. We start setting the defense up, then we'll have them where we want them to be and they won't know what's coming. I haven't seen us do anything like that since the Sewak days. That's always been one of the most dangerous things about us, we would be doing what looked like the same thing over and over but the next thing you knew, the ball was downfield (and most likely in the endzone) because we lulled you to sleep doing the "same thing" over and over. We also need to start using the defense's aggressiveness against them. The only time I've seen that so far is when we played UTC and let them run themselves to one side of the field and ran counters/reverses to bounce the ball to the other side of the field for big gain.

But right now, we mainly need to get healthy and more experience at all the positions on our team. We're playing injured and youth right now. I'm hoping next year brings us a better string of luck because the injury bug right now is pretty damn bad.
10-18-2013 07:00 AM
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GSU Eagles Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-18-2013 04:54 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  
(10-17-2013 11:39 AM)The4thOption Wrote:  
(10-17-2013 06:30 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  You cannot run the power out of the gun with the effectiveness as under center. It is not even a dive at the point, really.

What is your definition of running "power"?


On another note:
Going to go ahead and agree that I don't call the FB up the middle a real "Dive" from the pistol or shotgun.

Power is the fullback with a head of steam hitting the line almost instantaneously. Oline does not fire off the ball with anywhere near the ferocity out of the gun. The dive is the biggest weapon by far in the flexbone.

Agree 100%. The quick, hard hitting dive which allows the o-line to immediately cut block is the heart and soul of the flexbone. In the shotgun, that is taken away.

At the end of the day, running out of the shotgun is a different offense. Time will tell whether Ga Southern getting away from the flex was a good idea. But to argue we are still running the flex with a variation is laughable.
10-18-2013 02:22 PM
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Hail The Blue Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
I think the Flex will become our short yardage/goal line formation. I think it also depends on who is playing. Some of our QBs on our depth chart played in a flex/wishbone in HS. Others ran a shotgun spread. Ellison was in shotgun most of HS, so he runs our shotgun offense better than he runs the flex right now.


Sometimes I think our fans care more about what formations we line up in more than if we win or lose.
10-18-2013 02:34 PM
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GSU Eagles Offline
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RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-18-2013 02:34 PM)The Black Flag Wrote:  I think the Flex will become our short yardage/goal line formation. I think it also depends on who is playing. Some of our QBs on our depth chart played in a flex/wishbone in HS. Others ran a shotgun spread. Ellison was in shotgun most of HS, so he runs our shotgun offense better than he runs the flex right now.


Sometimes I think our fans care more about what formations we line up in more than if we win or lose.

Sounds like you would be ok with bringing back the Hatch attack if the powers that be simply told you it was to win more games. The flex at Ga Southern has an unmatched w/l record. Other offenses attempted at Ga Southern, not so good.
(This post was last modified: 10-18-2013 02:50 PM by GSU Eagles.)
10-18-2013 02:48 PM
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eagleskins Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-18-2013 02:48 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  
(10-18-2013 02:34 PM)The Black Flag Wrote:  I think the Flex will become our short yardage/goal line formation. I think it also depends on who is playing. Some of our QBs on our depth chart played in a flex/wishbone in HS. Others ran a shotgun spread. Ellison was in shotgun most of HS, so he runs our shotgun offense better than he runs the flex right now.


Sometimes I think our fans care more about what formations we line up in more than if we win or lose.

Sounds like you would be ok with bringing back the Hatch attack if the powers that be simply told you it was to win more games. The flex at Ga Southern has an unmatched w/l record. Other offenses attempted at Ga Southern, not so good.


Exactly. For the life of me I cannot understand not running the flex 100 percent of the time while moving to to the SB. None of those schools have any familiarity with it, and just about every school has familiarity with the cookie cutter stuff we do out of the gun. I'm not a fan of Brent Davis.
(This post was last modified: 10-19-2013 03:37 AM by eagleskins.)
10-19-2013 03:37 AM
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Eagle's Cliff Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
The offense is much less effective right now because we don't have experienced blockers inside or on the perimeter. We've tried to run the offense and it's been ineffective all season. In the gun, Ellison and McKinnon have an opportunity to use their athleticism to make something happen and there is only one read. The passes over the middle and down field keep the linebackers and d-backs off balance.

The Citadel game was an example of the coaching staff designing a strategy to use what we have and make it work. It's extremely vanilla (and ugly), but it got a win. This season is like watching a bunch of Spring games where we're really looking at the young guys and seeing them develop.
10-19-2013 09:00 AM
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bamaEagle Offline
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Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-18-2013 02:48 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  
(10-18-2013 02:34 PM)The Black Flag Wrote:  I think the Flex will become our short yardage/goal line formation. I think it also depends on who is playing. Some of our QBs on our depth chart played in a flex/wishbone in HS. Others ran a shotgun spread. Ellison was in shotgun most of HS, so he runs our shotgun offense better than he runs the flex right now.


Sometimes I think our fans care more about what formations we line up in more than if we win or lose.

Sounds like you would be ok with bringing back the Hatch attack if the powers that be simply told you it was to win more games. The flex at Ga Southern has an unmatched w/l record. Other offenses attempted at Ga Southern, not so good.

So if we lined up in the flex and threw the ball 40 times a game it would be just fine because we were in the flex? The option sets us apart, not a formation. I'm a huge fan of the flex but I'm not quite hard headed enough to say that's all we can run. It's just not true to say the flexbone is the only thing that keeps us going. Is it important? Yes. Is it the only option? No.
10-19-2013 09:27 AM
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GSU Eagles Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-19-2013 09:27 AM)bamaEagle Wrote:  
(10-18-2013 02:48 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  
(10-18-2013 02:34 PM)The Black Flag Wrote:  I think the Flex will become our short yardage/goal line formation. I think it also depends on who is playing. Some of our QBs on our depth chart played in a flex/wishbone in HS. Others ran a shotgun spread. Ellison was in shotgun most of HS, so he runs our shotgun offense better than he runs the flex right now.


Sometimes I think our fans care more about what formations we line up in more than if we win or lose.

Sounds like you would be ok with bringing back the Hatch attack if the powers that be simply told you it was to win more games. The flex at Ga Southern has an unmatched w/l record. Other offenses attempted at Ga Southern, not so good.

So if we lined up in the flex and threw the ball 40 times a game it would be just fine because we were in the flex? The option sets us apart, not a formation. I'm a huge fan of the flex but I'm not quite hard headed enough to say that's all we can run. It's just not true to say the flexbone is the only thing that keeps us going. Is it important? Yes. Is it the only option? No.

Now that is an interesting collection of random if and buts and off the wall scenarios without a touch of reality.

Running the flex means an option offense that primarily runs the ball. The two are synonymous.
(This post was last modified: 10-19-2013 11:33 AM by GSU Eagles.)
10-19-2013 11:29 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-19-2013 11:29 AM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  
(10-19-2013 09:27 AM)bamaEagle Wrote:  So if we lined up in the flex and threw the ball 40 times a game it would be just fine because we were in the flex? The option sets us apart, not a formation. I'm a huge fan of the flex but I'm not quite hard headed enough to say that's all we can run. It's just not true to say the flexbone is the only thing that keeps us going. Is it important? Yes. Is it the only option? No.

Now that is an interesting collection of random if and buts and off the wall scenarios without a touch of reality.

Running the flex means an option offense that primarily runs the ball. The two are synonymous.

The flexbone is my formation of choice, but a single formation does not completely describe our offense. We run the spread option. The flexbone is an offensive formation consisting of five down linemen, three running backs, two receivers and the quarterback. The quarterback lines up under center with the fullback directly behind, while two half backs are positioned at either end of the offensive line, behind the line of scrimmage. I do not want us to ever be an air it out team again, but saying the flexbone is the only way to run our offense is like saying McDonalds is the only place that sells good burgers.
10-19-2013 12:47 PM
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GSU Eagles Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
None of that has anything to do with the post you made a comment on. Your just spewing stuff out of context. Lol

Gotta love it when people only want to read the last post of a thread without knowing the context of it. Oh well.
(This post was last modified: 10-19-2013 01:12 PM by GSU Eagles.)
10-19-2013 01:08 PM
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Georgia Southern 28 Citadel 21
(10-19-2013 01:08 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  None of that has anything to do with the post you made a comment on. Your just spewing stuff out of context. Lol

Gotta love it when people only want to read the last post of a thread without knowing the context of it. Oh well.

I've read the whole thread and I've read the post I made the comment on. You say that someone would prefer the hatch attack, which is a playbook, over the flex, which is a single formation. But whatever bud, you just keep making the eagles back home proud.
10-19-2013 01:45 PM
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