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TerryD Offline
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Post: #61
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-25-2013 03:09 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Suspending someone for allegations is convicting them before they're proven guilty, Terry. That's not supposed to be how America works...


ND students (including athletes) signed a Code of Conduct and agreed to be bound to them and to the administrative process.

There is no need to wait until the criminal case is resolved. They may have violated the Code of Conduct but there isn't enough evidence to obtain a criminal conviction.

Those are two separate things.
09-25-2013 03:34 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #62
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-25-2013 03:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(09-25-2013 10:01 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(09-25-2013 07:59 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(09-25-2013 07:10 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(09-25-2013 03:32 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  You don't understand the quote.

OSU--free tattoos and benefits
USC--free money and agents running amuck
UNC--fake classes for dumb athletes

NCAA jurisdiction...NCAA penalties


PSU--administrative failure to protect children

USA laws...USA legal penalties (jail, etc.)

Baylor didn't get sanctioned for a murdered player...ND didn't get sanctioned for poor judgment on a windy day...

The NCAA should have never been involved. Legal experts said this 14 months ago...brave journalists wrote this 14 months ago...


You act like this "administrative failure" (i.e. cover up) was a single, isolated act of negligence, sort of an accident, like a rear end collision (sorry, no pun was really intended).

You seem to imply that this was a single, isolated, unintentional, accidental thing at Penn State. A one time thing. Something that began and ended in a single day.

Nothing from 1998 to 2011 was calculated, thought out, considered, mulled over, talked about or intentionally hidden/suppressed/swept under the rug. There was no prior knowledge or suspicion that Jerry Sandusky liked to rape small boys.

This was a one time surprise that caught everyone unaware and shocked them so much, it shocked them into....doing nothing.

You seem to think that this would have been handled the same way at Penn State if it were a janitor or a non-football employee caught in the act of anal rape of a small child in a shower.

The fact that Sandusky was a former DC of the football team, with continued special access to football facilities, was caught raping a boy by an assistant coach, who did nothing to stop the young kid from getting raped and waited a day to report it to the head coach.......that has nothing to do with anything, that none of this had its basis in covering up these child sexual abuse activities to protect Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program from damage/harm?

Do you really believe that? If so, it appears to me that many people in America do not share your view.

That being said, the reduction of sanctions by the NCAA does not surprise me.

Where was your outrage about Notre Dame putting football ahead of the safety of the student in the lift (and there is no dispute about the priorities there)?

Where was your outrage over the callous disregard of sexual assault charges by the police of Notre Dame University (University police, not city/county police) that contributed to a young lady committing suicide?

Where was your concern about repeated disregard of rapes by football players as alleged by two women at the time of the previous incident?

Sorry, but if you are a Notre Dame fan you look really hypocritical complaining about Penn St. unless you first criticize your own school.


I have no "outrage" about Penn State. I never did. So, your thesis is totally wrong from the start.

Second, that ND university police response regarding Lizzy Seeberg was within two weeks, not 13 years. I am not certain there was any "callous disregard" there.

She alleged that a player touched her breast. She made some other allegations that her own phone records and the statements of others disputed/cast doubt upon.

Certainly, she was not seen being raped by an assistant coach who reported it to Brian Kelly who....

Certainly, not the level of Penn State's cover up. Oranges (ND) and rotten apples (PSU).

Lizzy tried to commit suicide at the University of Dayton the year before.

Why did she attempt suicide at Dayton?

That is why her family had her transfer to St. Mary's College in the first place.

So, I am not certain that the university police at ND "contributed" to the poor girl's suicide. Does anyone?

Any board psychiatrists ever interview her?

Third, what "repeated disregard of rapes"?

Google Cooper Rego and Abe Elam. Try Lorenzo Crawford, too.

There is a fairly long list of ND players who were administratively expelled by ND and barred from campus after allegations of sexual misconduct.

ND has a history of little tolerance for that back to Ross Browner and Luther Bradley in 1974. They suspended their two best defensive players for those (never proven) allegations back then.

Those guys were expelled prior to criminal charges (they were all found not guilty but one (Elam) who pled guilty). None of this "wait until the criminal process is concluded" BS.

In fact, I can recall criticism by non-ND fans that ND was too hasty in its administrative hearing process and expulsion of those players. There were claims at the time that ND was too "old fashioned" in its Code of Conduct as set forth in du Lac.

WVU fans were outraged that ND would not let Cooper Rego back on its campus when WVU last visited ND.

The Declan Sullivan incident was a true, one time, negligence thing. I wrote my post because the Penn State fan was trying to compare the two situations as a negligent, one time event.

ND has taken steps (a statue) to honor the memory of Declan and has funded a scholarship in his name.

They have the approval of the Sullivan family for all that they have done in response to this accident.

I have no "outrage" about anything that happens in college football, or sports at all, for that matter. In fact, I don't recall having any "outrage" about anything in my life, for that matter.

I just responded to what appeared to be an attempt to make the Penn State matter a one time, "accidental negligence" type of thing.

Just to be clear about poster requirements, we have to be fans of a program who has never done one thing wrong to comment on the actions of other programs, correct?

The allegations made specifically by 2 women was that they themselves and other women were raped by Notre Dame players in the 2000s and that the university police refused to investigate. What happened to Ms. Seeberg with the intimidation (and the misinformation on her) are what's disturbing, as noted in this article from a Notre Dame grad:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-...otre-dame/

So right, the alleged assault, the threatening texts, the delay of the police in investigating, none of that had any impact on her. I said it contributed to her suicide. Anybody with common sense and not in denial can see that. How much, who knows.

This article from the National Catholic reporter actually shows some of the threatening texts and talks of intimidation of the reporter:

http://ncronline.org/news/accountability...ns-answers

Here's one paragraph which is very disturbing with a quote (ND in the paragraph denies it):
Not even Notre Dame argues that her death spurred the pace of the investigation; on the contrary, officials put her death on the list of the factors they say prevented police from interviewing the player sooner. But a former Notre Dame Security Police officer who specialized in sexual assault cases said such delays are not quite as inexplicable as they might seem, since the university effectively makes it more difficult to investigate student athletes by barring police from going through the athletic department. "That's an order," said Pat Cottrell, who before he retired in 2009 was with Notre Dame Security Police for 19 years, and with the South Bend Police Department for 20 years before that. "Just a regular Joe, if they were working a job on campus, I could go there and say, 'Hey, I need to talk to you.' " But when an athlete is involved, he said, "if they don't respond, they don't respond, and that makes it harder to do your job." Notre Dame's statement said athletes get no special treatment, and police shouldn't in any case have to go through the Athletic Department.

If you read less sympathetic reports like the Huffington Post, the comments are a lot more negative and less balanced than these two which are not flattering to Notre Dame's culture.

Its all pretty disturbing. Its not all substantiated like Penn St. or Montana, but there are a lot of different allegations by different people.

So, how do you explain the suspensions and expulsions of ND athletes going back to the Seventies?

You seem to skip over all of that. A large number of these guys were never convicted of any crimes but kicked out by ND nonetheless.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2013 03:37 PM by TerryD.)
09-25-2013 03:35 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #63
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-25-2013 03:34 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(09-25-2013 03:09 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Suspending someone for allegations is convicting them before they're proven guilty, Terry. That's not supposed to be how America works...
ND students (including athletes) signed a Code of Conduct and agreed to be bound to them and to the administrative process.

There is no need to wait until the criminal case is resolved. They may have violated the Code of Conduct but there isn't enough evidence to obtain a criminal conviction.

Those are two separate things.
And what will ND do one day when it turns out that someone has made false accusations against somebody who has since been terminated from school, forfeiting their tuition and destroying their reputation due to someone wanting to get them in trouble?

It's not like that hasn't happened before...
09-25-2013 03:39 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #64
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-25-2013 03:39 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(09-25-2013 03:34 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(09-25-2013 03:09 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Suspending someone for allegations is convicting them before they're proven guilty, Terry. That's not supposed to be how America works...
ND students (including athletes) signed a Code of Conduct and agreed to be bound to them and to the administrative process.

There is no need to wait until the criminal case is resolved. They may have violated the Code of Conduct but there isn't enough evidence to obtain a criminal conviction.

Those are two separate things.
And what will ND do one day when it turns out that someone has made false accusations against somebody who has since been terminated from school, forfeiting their tuition and destroying their reputation due to someone wanting to get them in trouble?

It's not like that hasn't happened before...


Well, I guess that the choices are to offer to reinstate them or to do nothing at all.

Attendance at the school and participation in athletics is a privilege, not a right.

There is a hearing and evidence is presented. The expulsion or suspension is an internal, administrative matter.

The burden of proof is a lot lower and the student can be expelled even if no crime was committed.

See, in these cases, you are criticized either way, it seems.


P.S. ND does this for their own academic standards, too. Remember RB Julius Jones? He was a star ND running back that was suspended by ND for not meeting ND's academic standards.

He was eligible to play under NCAA standards, but not ND's. Out he went for one year.

QB Everett Golson was suspended for the Fall 2013 semester for cheating. How many schools would suspend their starting QB after a 12-0 regular season? How many would ignore or sweep his cheating on a test under the rug?

These athletes are bound to ND's Code of Conduct and academic requirements. They knew that when they enrolled.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2013 04:01 PM by TerryD.)
09-25-2013 03:52 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #65
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-25-2013 03:32 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  
(09-24-2013 05:04 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(09-24-2013 12:31 PM)stever20 Wrote:  OSU staff lied about actual NCAA violations. Huge difference there.

Yeah, illegal tattoos are so much worse that child-rape.

You don't understand the quote.

OSU--free tattoos and benefits
USC--free money and agents running amuck
UNC--fake classes for dumb athletes

NCAA jurisdiction...NCAA penalties


PSU--administrative failure to protect children

USA laws...USA legal penalties (jail, etc.)

Baylor didn't get sanctioned for a murdered player...ND didn't get sanctioned for poor judgment on a windy day...

The NCAA should have never been involved. Legal experts said this 14 months ago...brave journalists wrote this 14 months ago...


To wrap up this thread (for me), two things:

1) I only wrote initially because the Penn State poster tried to equate the Sandusky matter to a single, work place accident. That is BS.

2) To be told that, as an ND fan, I cannot comment on #1 above is also complete BS.


I really don't care what happens with Penn State, one way or another. It doesn't surprise or "outrage" be in the slightest that the sanctions are being lessened.
09-25-2013 03:59 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #66
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-25-2013 03:59 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I really don't care what happens with Penn State, one way or another. It doesn't surprise or "outrage" be in the slightest that the sanctions are being lessened.
I'm not surprised either, Terry. Our government and system of justice have long showed that those with enough money can literally get away with murder...
09-25-2013 05:08 PM
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Post: #67
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-25-2013 03:59 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(09-25-2013 03:32 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  
(09-24-2013 05:04 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(09-24-2013 12:31 PM)stever20 Wrote:  OSU staff lied about actual NCAA violations. Huge difference there.

Yeah, illegal tattoos are so much worse that child-rape.

You don't understand the quote.

OSU--free tattoos and benefits
USC--free money and agents running amuck
UNC--fake classes for dumb athletes

NCAA jurisdiction...NCAA penalties


PSU--administrative failure to protect children

USA laws...USA legal penalties (jail, etc.)

Baylor didn't get sanctioned for a murdered player...ND didn't get sanctioned for poor judgment on a windy day...

The NCAA should have never been involved. Legal experts said this 14 months ago...brave journalists wrote this 14 months ago...


To wrap up this thread (for me), two things:

1) I only wrote initially because the Penn State poster tried to equate the Sandusky matter to a single, work place accident. That is BS.

2) To be told that, as an ND fan, I cannot comment on #1 above is also complete BS.


I really don't care what happens with Penn State, one way or another. It doesn't surprise or "outrage" be in the slightest that the sanctions are being lessened.

2) You may not have been "outraged" but your extreme sarcasm and your followup "BS" comment made it sound that way and that's the way I interpreted your comments.

My comment was based on that interpretation. If someone who is a ND fan is "outraged" at Penn St. culture without also being concerned about their own, they are practicing hypocrisy in the extreme.

That's my last comment on that issue.
09-25-2013 05:09 PM
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Post: #68
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-24-2013 03:46 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Penn State's accreditation should have been pulled

I was wondering when someone would mention that. Auburn faced something similar back when chairman Bobby Lowder was in power.
09-25-2013 06:59 PM
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Post: #69
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
I love how people are complaining that some more kids will be able to go to their State School of choice and play football on scholarship.

This country has become a Republic (it is not a Democracy people) full of citizen tyrants.
09-25-2013 07:49 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #70
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
From one of the comments to that Harrisburg article, here is the e mail chain, in chronological order:

Monday Feb. 26, 2001 1:57pm From Gary Schultz to Tim Curley
cc Joan Coble (secretary)
Subject: confidential

Tim, I'm assuming that you've got the ball to 1) talk to the subject ASAP regarding the future appropriate use of the University facility; 2) contact the Chair of the Charitable Organization; and 3) contact the Dept. of Welfare. As you know, I'm out of the office the next two weeks, but if you need anything from me, let me know.

Tuesday Feb. 27 8:10pm from Tim Curley (to Schultz and President Spanier)

I had scheduled a meeting with you this afternoon about the subject we discussed on Sunday. After giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe yesterday - I am uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps. I am having trouble with going to everyone, but the person involved. I think I would be more comfortable meeting with the person and tell him about the information we received. I would plan to tell him we are aware of the first situation. I would indicate we feel there is a problem and we want to assist the individual to get professional help. Also. we feel a responsibility at some point soon to inform his organization and and maybe the other one about the situation. If he is cooperative we would work with him to handle informing the organization. If not, we do not have a choice and will inform the two groups. Additionally, I will let him know that his guests are not permitted to use our facilities. I need some help on this one. What do you think about this approach?

Tuesday Feb. 27 10:18pm From Graham Spanier to Tim Curley and Gary Schultz

Tim, this approach is acceptable to me. It requires you to go a step further and means that your conversation will be all the more difficult, but I admire your willingness to do that and I am supportive. The only downside for us is if the message isn't "heard" and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it, but that can be assessed down the road. The approach you outline is humane and a reasonable way to proceed.

Wednesday Feb. 28 2:13pm From Gary Schultz to Tim Curley and Graham Spanier
Subject: re: meeting

Tim and Graham, this is a more humane and upfront way to handle this. I can support this approach with the understanding we will inform his organization, with or without his cooperation (I think that's what Tim proposed). We can play it by ear to decide about the other organization.

*****************

It is obvious that at the beginning, prior to Curley talking to Joe on Monday, they had planned to inform Dept of Welfare (Child Protective Services). Hell, it's the law. Then, surprise surprise, after speaking with Joe, Tim's all of a sudden uncomfortable with all of this reporting business. He wants to talk with Sandusky. Get him to understand what he's doing just isn't right. Hopeful good old Jerry hears the message. Spanier is supportive, but points out they'll all be vulnerable (for breaking the reporting law) if Jerry doesn't "hear" the message.

I think we all found out that pedophiles don't stop. You need to stop them. Yes. They failed any and every test anyone can come up with.

How many kids were abused after this episode? Why are we rewarding Penn State by reducing their penalty again?
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2013 07:59 PM by CougarRed.)
09-25-2013 07:55 PM
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Post: #71
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
unreal

so really all we have learned boys and girls is that if you cheat, lie, give players money, fudge grades, rape kids, provide prostitutes, provide drugs, and just about anything else AND you are a program that makes money for the ncaa and school, then cheating really does pay.

see miami fl, ohio state, usc, unc, ped state, tennessee, etc etc etc etc
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2013 07:59 PM by Bearcats#1.)
09-25-2013 07:57 PM
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Post: #72
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-25-2013 07:55 PM)CougarRed Wrote:  From one of the comments to that Harrisburg article, here is the e mail chain, in chronological order:

Monday Feb. 26, 2001 1:57pm From Gary Schultz to Tim Curley
cc Joan Coble (secretary)
Subject: confidential

Tim, I'm assuming that you've got the ball to 1) talk to the subject ASAP regarding the future appropriate use of the University facility; 2) contact the Chair of the Charitable Organization; and 3) contact the Dept. of Welfare. As you know, I'm out of the office the next two weeks, but if you need anything from me, let me know.

Tuesday Feb. 27 8:10pm from Tim Curley (to Schultz and President Spanier)

I had scheduled a meeting with you this afternoon about the subject we discussed on Sunday. After giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe yesterday - I am uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps. I am having trouble with going to everyone, but the person involved. I think I would be more comfortable meeting with the person and tell him about the information we received. I would plan to tell him we are aware of the first situation. I would indicate we feel there is a problem and we want to assist the individual to get professional help. Also. we feel a responsibility at some point soon to inform his organization and and maybe the other one about the situation. If he is cooperative we would work with him to handle informing the organization. If not, we do not have a choice and will inform the two groups. Additionally, I will let him know that his guests are not permitted to use our facilities. I need some help on this one. What do you think about this approach?

Tuesday Feb. 27 10:18pm From Graham Spanier to Tim Curley and Gary Schultz

Tim, this approach is acceptable to me. It requires you to go a step further and means that your conversation will be all the more difficult, but I admire your willingness to do that and I am supportive. The only downside for us is if the message isn't "heard" and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it, but that can be assessed down the road. The approach you outline is humane and a reasonable way to proceed.

Wednesday Feb. 28 2:13pm From Gary Schultz to Tim Curley and Graham Spanier
Subject: re: meeting

Tim and Graham, this is a more humane and upfront way to handle this. I can support this approach with the understanding we will inform his organization, with or without his cooperation (I think that's what Tim proposed). We can play it by ear to decide about the other organization.

*****************

It is obvious that at the beginning, prior to Curley talking to Joe on Monday, they had planned to inform Dept of Welfare (Child Protective Services). Hell, it's the law. Then, surprise surprise, after speaking with Joe, Tim's all of a sudden uncomfortable with all of this reporting business. He wants to talk with Sandusky. Get him to understand what he's doing just isn't right. Hopeful good old Jerry hears the message. Spanier is supportive, but points out they'll all be vulnerable (for breaking the reporting law) if Jerry doesn't "hear" the message.

I think we all found out that pedophiles don't stop. You need to stop them. Yes. They failed any and every test anyone can come up with.

How many kids were abused after this episode? Why are we rewarding Penn State by reducing their penalty again?

It would have been stopped if they had simply followed up on this lesser plan (which probably did violate the Cleary Act if nothing else). But they basically did nothing except talk to him and then pretend it never happened.
09-25-2013 09:13 PM
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Post: #73
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
Once again, Penn State was gaining a competitive recruiting advantage ("You can play for a clean program that's never been involved in a scandal") by covering up for Sandusky.

Yes, football recruiting advantages pale in comparison to the egregiousness of the other crimes committed. No, that does not entitle the PSU football program to get out of this unscathed. Football program punishment vs. federal/civil school punishment is not a zero-sum game.
09-26-2013 10:31 AM
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Post: #74
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-25-2013 07:49 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  I love how people are complaining that some more kids will be able to go to their State School of choice and play football on scholarship.

This country has become a Republic (it is not a Democracy people) full of citizen tyrants.

That cuts both ways.

The flip side is people saying they are punishing innocent kids. Really? They let anyone on the team transfer who wanted to. No one forced them to stay at Penn State.

Then there is the bowl ban. Are we really going to say kids are being punished because they cannot play in an exhibition game?

The talk of punishing the innocent needs to stop.
09-26-2013 10:39 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #75
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
(09-26-2013 10:39 AM)WNCOrange Wrote:  
(09-25-2013 07:49 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  I love how people are complaining that some more kids will be able to go to their State School of choice and play football on scholarship.

This country has become a Republic (it is not a Democracy people) full of citizen tyrants.
That cuts both ways.

The flip side is people saying they are punishing innocent kids. Really? They let anyone on the team transfer who wanted to. No one forced them to stay at Penn State.

Then there is the bowl ban. Are we really going to say kids are being punished because they cannot play in an exhibition game?

The talk of punishing the innocent needs to stop.
01-ncaabbs
09-26-2013 12:25 PM
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Post: #76
RE: NCAA to restore PSU Scholarships
USC figures, what the heck, if Penn State can get (partially) off the hook, so can we...

https://twitter.com/slmandel/status/383328666400219136
https://twitter.com/slmandel/status/383328785250009088
https://twitter.com/slmandel/status/383328897342771200

Quote:Stewart Mandel
‏@slmandel

USC's Pat Haden met w/ Mark Emmert, NCAA. In light of Penn St action, asks for "consideration" of Trojans' sanctions. http://www.usctrojans.com/blog/2013/09/h...-indy.html

Haden: "After candid discussions, the NCAA asked us to provide additional information and indicated it would study our suggestions."

Haden: "Because time is of the essence regarding these issues, we have asked for the NCAA's response as soon as practical."
09-26-2013 03:45 PM
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