(09-23-2013 08:35 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Adding those 2 conferences leaves fewer upset politicos, which means fewer problems involved in dividing D1 football...

In English soccer, the Premier League provides a "parachute payment" to teams that get relegated to the Championship to soften the blow of not being in the most lucrative league in the world. In other words, expect the P5 to swat the AAC and Mountain West away with a few million bucks. Don't worry, it will be an offer the AAC and Mountain West will know they can't refuse.

The BIG EAST deserves to be on the right side of any split, if the split extends to basketball. Otherwise, I think that it should be P5.

(09-23-2013 08:35 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Adding those 2 conferences leaves fewer upset politicos, which means fewer problems involved in dividing D1 football...

Smart logic. Also the MWC/AAC can be feeder conferences from the next tier down.

I don't think anything less than an FBS split that includes all 10 conferences is happening though. That is even easier to maneuver politically.

(09-23-2013 09:56 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 08:35 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Adding those 2 conferences leaves fewer upset politicos, which means fewer problems involved in dividing D1 football...

Smart logic. Also the MWC/AAC can be feeder conferences from the next tier down.

I don't think anything less than an FBS split that includes all 10 conferences is happening though. That is even easier to maneuver politically.

My personal opinion is some form of semi-merger. The AAC taking in some programs from the MWC. A twenty team, four division AAC which reaches across the country but has four distinctly regional divisions that lead into it's own tournament. That is something I think the Networks could appreciate. Not to the tune of paying them the same money as the Majors of course but still enough.

Having 20 of them in this gatekeeper conference maintains enough teams with the SoS that will be attributed to the conference to fill spots in the schedules of teams in the Major Conferences.


I think if both the AAC and MWC are allowed then both conferences will want to push to 16 in order to have their own tournaments. If they are in any way impeded from doing so then that could spell legal problems.

What's the possibility of the G5 schools being given a choice: either comply or be relegated.

I think that the political landscape will not allow for many in the G5 to be left out by force. I think that the bar will be set at a point that many schools simply choose to not compete at that level.

Thus, you will select schools from the AAC and MWC merge into one conference, possibly along with schools from CUSA and the MAC. I do not think that the Sunbelt is in too good of a shape right now...

(09-23-2013 09:56 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 08:35 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Adding those 2 conferences leaves fewer upset politicos, which means fewer problems involved in dividing D1 football...

Smart logic. Also the MWC/AAC can be feeder conferences from the next tier down.

I don't think anything less than an FBS split that includes all 10 conferences is happening though. That is even easier to maneuver politically.

I think it will be all the FBS and whichever FCS and basketball leagues that vote the way the P5 want them to vote.

(09-23-2013 10:15 PM)Ned Low Wrote:  What's the possibility of the G5 schools being given a choice: either comply or be relegated.

I think that the political landscape will not allow for many in the G5 to be left out by force. I think that the bar will be set at a point that many schools simply choose to not compete at that level.

Thus, you will select schools from the AAC and MWC merge into one conference, possibly along with schools from CUSA and the MAC. I do not think that the Sunbelt is in too good of a shape right now...

I think this is very possible. The G5 will draw its proposed line in the sand and then teams / leagues will have to decide if they want / can afford under the proposed terms. Positioning this way makes it more of a choice than a pure breakaway. Albeit a choice with a high cost of entry.

(09-23-2013 10:15 PM)Ned Low Wrote:  What's the possibility of the G5 schools being given a choice: either comply or be relegated.

I think that the political landscape will not allow for many in the G5 to be left out by force. I think that the bar will be set at a point that many schools simply choose to not compete at that level.

Thus, you will select schools from the AAC and MWC merge into one conference, possibly along with schools from CUSA and the MAC. I do not think that the Sunbelt is in too good of a shape right now...

I don't know if the Sun Belt in its present form will survive. But I know that your core Sun Belt members would make sure their universities complied with any new standards. (ULL, Troy, ASU, ULM, Texas State, USA, probably App State and Georgia Southern) Even if it means radical changes to the athletic budget and structure. Most of our schools could not afford being forced to drop down because it would kill fan support.

Since no legislation would work in the current climate to force a school out of FBS, you'll simply see standards set to hopefully reduce the number of FBS teams, only to provide a drawback that most teams do what they need to do to stay up.

(09-23-2013 10:23 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 09:56 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 08:35 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Adding those 2 conferences leaves fewer upset politicos, which means fewer problems involved in dividing D1 football...

Smart logic. Also the MWC/AAC can be feeder conferences from the next tier down.

I don't think anything less than an FBS split that includes all 10 conferences is happening though. That is even easier to maneuver politically.

I think it will be all the FBS and whichever FCS and basketball leagues that vote the way the P5 want them to vote.

I seriously doubt that basketball will be considered at all, unless the power conferences want to break away totally from those not playing all their sports at the highest level...

In that case, any conference that is not a P5 conference will be left out in the cold, and the power conferences setup their own tourneys in football, basketball, and all other sports...

(09-23-2013 09:56 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 08:35 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Adding those 2 conferences leaves fewer upset politicos, which means fewer problems involved in dividing D1 football...

Smart logic. Also the MWC/AAC can be feeder conferences from the next tier down.

I don't think anything less than an FBS split that includes all 10 conferences is happening though. That is even easier to maneuver politically.

THIS.

It has been widely reported that the most likely scenario is the 10 FBS conferences plus a few top Bball conferences would be placed in the new top division, should one be formed. The issue has been with FBS schools in the minority of NCAA membership, FBS has been forced to tolerate rules and regulations that smaller schools use to control costs (among other things). There is very little daylight between the ISSUES FBS schools face, no matter the conference. This potential new subset of D1 will create a super committee that will review pending legislation from the general body, and vote to determine if those rules should apply to FBS or not... it will also make some of its own rules as well.

With the playoff format in place, and the money divided, all that is left is for governance to be resolved... and it will be, but it will include ALL FBS conferences and the top 2-3 Bball only conferences that will occupy D4, or whatever they wind up calling it.

(09-23-2013 04:50 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 04:35 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 04:08 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  per NCAA president Mark Emmert.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/...oming-ncaa

Sound more like a lean to the split of the FBS conferences and some other conferences (Big East..) that are in line with the issues of the Big Schools from the last paragraph of the article.

"suggests that FBS institutions and conferences that are more closely aligned in issues and athletics resources form a new division."

I read that as more that the P5 form a new division. Basketball conferences, CUSA, MAC, Sun Belt not invited. AAC and MWC possibly not invited as well.

I don't know about that. Adding the AAC and MWC still gives the P5 conferences some easier games to schedule, without having to go down a divisional level...

What difference does that even make? It won't affect a thing if the MWC is in "D4" or left behind in the old FBS. It'd be no different than scheduling FCS currently. Everybody schedules FCS and FBS scrubs and I doubt very much that'll change drastically in the new system.

As GoNolzOhio said, it'd be fruitless to create a new, "inclusive" division just to wind up right back with what they were trying to escape.

(09-23-2013 10:36 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  I don't know if the Sun Belt in its present form will survive. But I know that your core Sun Belt members would make sure their universities complied with any new standards. (ULL, Troy, ASU, ULM, Texas State, USA, probably App State and Georgia Southern) Even if it means radical changes to the athletic budget and structure. Most of our schools could not afford being forced to drop down because it would kill fan support.

Since no legislation would work in the current climate to force a school out of FBS, you'll simply see standards set to hopefully reduce the number of FBS teams, only to provide a drawback that most teams do what they need to do to stay up.

If D4 put requirements in place like increasing the minimum number of sports, full cost of attendance scholarships, stipends, and prohibiting schools from only partially funding sports, do you think those same schools would be able to afford it? How much money do you think the majority of G5 schools can just pull out of their butts?

If you have to increase how much a scholarship is worth, increase how many you award, pay stipends, have to higher more coaches and build new facilities (for new sports), can schools in the Sun Belt keep up?

The typical P5 tv contract is $18M/year or more greater than the G5? The amount of bowl and playoff money the P5 will be getting will also be substantially larger than the G5, right? What if the P5 set the standards to a level that is anticipated at a $10-15M/year increase in athletic spending for all universities (P5 and G5)?

Because that's what I'd do if I was the P5. I'd say, "We are more than willing to open our doors to anyone who wants to join just so long as they know that by joining they will be required to do x, y and z."

I also don't think fan support would suffer much. I believe the P5 will continue to schedule G5 even if that is the dividing line for D4. So the schedule will remain mostly unchanged. But now your school will have a much better shot at actually winning a national title without directly having to compete with the P5 schools.

(09-24-2013 12:05 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 10:36 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  I don't know if the Sun Belt in its present form will survive. But I know that your core Sun Belt members would make sure their universities complied with any new standards. (ULL, Troy, ASU, ULM, Texas State, USA, probably App State and Georgia Southern) Even if it means radical changes to the athletic budget and structure. Most of our schools could not afford being forced to drop down because it would kill fan support.

Since no legislation would work in the current climate to force a school out of FBS, you'll simply see standards set to hopefully reduce the number of FBS teams, only to provide a drawback that most teams do what they need to do to stay up.

If D4 put requirements in place like increasing the minimum number of sports, full cost of attendance scholarships, stipends, and prohibiting schools from only partially funding sports, do you think those same schools would be able to afford it? How much money do you think the majority of G5 schools can just pull out of their butts?

If you have to increase how much a scholarship is worth, increase how many you award, pay stipends, have to higher more coaches and build new facilities (for new sports), can schools in the Sun Belt keep up?

The typical P5 tv contract is $18M/year or more greater than the G5? The amount of bowl and playoff money the P5 will be getting will also be substantially larger than the G5, right? What if the P5 set the standards to a level that is anticipated at a $10-15M/year increase in athletic spending for all universities (P5 and G5)?

Because that's what I'd do if I was the P5. I'd say, "We are more than willing to open our doors to anyone who wants to join just so long as they know that by joining they will be required to do x, y and z."

I also don't think fan support would suffer much. I believe the P5 will continue to schedule G5 even if that is the dividing line for D4. So the schedule will remain mostly unchanged. But now your school will have a much better shot at actually winning a national title without directly having to compete with the P5 schools.

I think you don't understand the gap that fans see between G5 and FCS. Many G5 teams exist simply because we have no desire to be lumped in with FCS teams. We all have FCS teams below us who we believe to be far inferior, and our fan base would never accept being associated with them.

Its possible that fans would be satisfied if a division for simply G5 schools existed. But I am not sure you would ever see that happen. We've never been in this for the national titles. We're in it so we can get home games against P5 schools, and so we can beat P5 schools and have a chance at a major BCS Bowl that would bring a lucrative financial reward to the school.

As for many of the requirements you stated. Title IX will have a lot to say about what a new division can require in terms of sports, but, yes. Every Sun Belt school approved stipends...in fact the conference was prepared to implement it before it was voted down.

I can guarantee you that a lot of schools would do whatever necessary to maintain the new requirements for a 4th division. No administrator could afford to be the one to have to announce to fans that they cant...the consequences would be extreme.

(09-24-2013 12:05 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 10:36 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  I don't know if the Sun Belt in its present form will survive. But I know that your core Sun Belt members would make sure their universities complied with any new standards. (ULL, Troy, ASU, ULM, Texas State, USA, probably App State and Georgia Southern) Even if it means radical changes to the athletic budget and structure. Most of our schools could not afford being forced to drop down because it would kill fan support.

Since no legislation would work in the current climate to force a school out of FBS, you'll simply see standards set to hopefully reduce the number of FBS teams, only to provide a drawback that most teams do what they need to do to stay up.

If D4 put requirements in place like increasing the minimum number of sports, full cost of attendance scholarships, stipends, and prohibiting schools from only partially funding sports, do you think those same schools would be able to afford it? How much money do you think the majority of G5 schools can just pull out of their butts?

If you have to increase how much a scholarship is worth, increase how many you award, pay stipends, have to higher more coaches and build new facilities (for new sports), can schools in the Sun Belt keep up?

The typical P5 tv contract is $18M/year or more greater than the G5? The amount of bowl and playoff money the P5 will be getting will also be substantially larger than the G5, right? What if the P5 set the standards to a level that is anticipated at a $10-15M/year increase in athletic spending for all universities (P5 and G5)?

Because that's what I'd do if I was the P5. I'd say, "We are more than willing to open our doors to anyone who wants to join just so long as they know that by joining they will be required to do x, y and z."

I also don't think fan support would suffer much. I believe the P5 will continue to schedule G5 even if that is the dividing line for D4. So the schedule will remain mostly unchanged. But now your school will have a much better shot at actually winning a national title without directly having to compete with the P5 schools.

G5 schools WILL sue before being relegated. Bet on it. Which is why they are not going to be relegated. Nobody wants that expense...what would show up in discovery....and the chance that you run into a judge who doesn't care one bit about the P5 or their "specialness".

What do you gain from attempting to relegate or force out the remaining schools that is worth that? I don't see it.

(09-24-2013 01:00 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(09-24-2013 12:05 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 10:36 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  I don't know if the Sun Belt in its present form will survive. But I know that your core Sun Belt members would make sure their universities complied with any new standards. (ULL, Troy, ASU, ULM, Texas State, USA, probably App State and Georgia Southern) Even if it means radical changes to the athletic budget and structure. Most of our schools could not afford being forced to drop down because it would kill fan support.

Since no legislation would work in the current climate to force a school out of FBS, you'll simply see standards set to hopefully reduce the number of FBS teams, only to provide a drawback that most teams do what they need to do to stay up.

If D4 put requirements in place like increasing the minimum number of sports, full cost of attendance scholarships, stipends, and prohibiting schools from only partially funding sports, do you think those same schools would be able to afford it? How much money do you think the majority of G5 schools can just pull out of their butts?

If you have to increase how much a scholarship is worth, increase how many you award, pay stipends, have to higher more coaches and build new facilities (for new sports), can schools in the Sun Belt keep up?

The typical P5 tv contract is $18M/year or more greater than the G5? The amount of bowl and playoff money the P5 will be getting will also be substantially larger than the G5, right? What if the P5 set the standards to a level that is anticipated at a $10-15M/year increase in athletic spending for all universities (P5 and G5)?

Because that's what I'd do if I was the P5. I'd say, "We are more than willing to open our doors to anyone who wants to join just so long as they know that by joining they will be required to do x, y and z."

I also don't think fan support would suffer much. I believe the P5 will continue to schedule G5 even if that is the dividing line for D4. So the schedule will remain mostly unchanged. But now your school will have a much better shot at actually winning a national title without directly having to compete with the P5 schools.

G5 schools WILL sue before being relegated. Bet on it. Which is why they are not going to be relegated. Nobody wants that expense...what would show up in discovery....and the chance that you run into a judge who doesn't care one bit about the P5 or their "specialness".

What do you gain from attempting to relegate or force out the remaining schools that is worth that? I don't see it.

Rest assured, it won't come to that. They are not going to split G5 P5. That has never been what this is about, notwithstanding a few mouthy AD's. They won't carve out a minority of the minority and have them call the shots, won't happen. The G5 and FCS/D2 schools would make strange bedfellows and prevent it from happening, which would force the P5 to fish or cut bait... no one wants that, that's why it won't happen.

and his paycheck....he'll be the biggest Ho! In the room.

(09-23-2013 08:47 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 08:40 PM)Flying Bearcat Wrote:  Lets face it guys, what is said now does not mean it will happen when things become official. Things can always change because there are alot of things that can happen between now and what will happen in the NCAA meetings. I am taking what is said with very little salt and waiting till the the time of the meetings to make a more informed opinion.

Emmert is trying to save his ass. If it doesn't happen then he is gone for sure. If it happens then he possibly can maintain his position.

The P5 did not just sign a 12-year contract with the G5 just to split them off. The issue is really more FBS vs the rest of D1. Also keep in mind that a full division split would have gigantic financial implications to the rest of the divisions and would require a vote of the entire NCAA membership (D1, D2, and D3). Knowing that, it seems that a full division split while staying within the boundaries of the NCAA is not something that is tenable.

One of the nine subcommittees that are putting together proposals for the new governance structure recommended that FBS become its own full subdivision within D1 - basically able to establish its own rules while still staying within the D1 umbrella. I think that is what ends up making the most sense for long term stability.

http://www.oneafar.org/Governance_Proposal.pdf

I don't understand why you guys are even discussing whether the G5 will be included or not because the document they are drafting up above clearly states they are included and that there is no desire to not include all FBS because they are worries there would not be enough competition without them.

I think the OP link can be interpreted either way. P5 only, or FBS + others. However, numerous media types have reported for months that D4 was likely going to be all of FBS, plus a few select BB conferences. Remember, people tend to think of D1 as only the football schools, but there are 334 schools in Div. 1 right now.

This separation is to get rid of the overwhelming number of small BB schools that vote down everything the P5 schools want to do, not to split the P5 from everybody else, including the G5. That's why they also keep talking about weighting the P5 votes in the new division. Why consider that if you're going into D4 by yourself?

(09-24-2013 08:03 AM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  http://www.oneafar.org/Governance_Proposal.pdf

I don't understand why you guys are even discussing whether the G5 will be included or not because the document they are drafting up above clearly states they are included and that there is no desire to not include all FBS because they are worries there would not be enough competition without them.

Don't see a break. Kind of counter intuitive when there was a 12 year contract signed by all FBS conferences to include a playoff. I rhink what we could see is more leniency at the top. Like allowing players to be payed, etc...

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