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If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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Post: #1
If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
They will think outside the box and outside the footprint. In fact, Fox may push them to do just that because there really are no good choices within the footprint, which is why they stopped at 10 the first time around. The choices are not likely to get any better by waiting. So, they make the move to the school with institutional fit with the highest profile:

Gonzaga

I'm obviously not the first one to think about them. There are all of the obvious objections. Too far. Too many time zones. Sitting out there on an island. It will never happen. We can't change the distance, but we can note that except for Portland, Gonzaga already travels between 900 - 1500 miles for all the rest of their conference games on the West Coast. So, the distance will increase, but they're already getting on a plane for every sport in which they compete in the WCC.

As far as time zones are concerned, that is a big problem. West Virginia is already finding the combination of distance and a time zone change to be a major problem for them. And that's only one time zone. But WVu is traveling west and coming back east. Going in the other direction actually helps on the return trip and is much more doable. For the rest of the league it's a max of one trip out west per year. Not a big deal; many of them already do that.

Being out on an island is something that can be accommodated. Find a second team out west that draws big attendance, has a high profile, will boost TV ratings, is always competitive, and has the private school institutional fit with no football. That would give Gonzaga a travel partner and allow the rest of the league to pick up 2 games with one road trip the way that the PAC XII does. Such a school does exist:

BYU

If the BYU is serious about going independent in football for the long haul, adding them for all other sports would be no different than adding Notre Dame, which the Big East would do in a New York minute.

No one else available would increase the conference's competitive profile and TV ratings the way that the combination of Gonzaga and BYU would. In fact, I would venture to say that such an announcement would be a blockbuster. Fox would love it. I suspect that they're already thinking of it because if I can see it, so can they.

In spite of all of the travel and logistical obstacles, it's really an offer that Gonzaga and BYU can't refuse. Right now Gonzaga has a ceiling on how far they can grow their program because they play in a mid major conference comparable to the MAAC. The home attendance for all the other WCC schools except BYU averages in the 2000-3000 range. Some are less. It's really awful even for the better schools in the league. Gonzaga has outgrown that conference.

It's even worse for BYU. What the LDS wants out of BYU sports is exposure. That's why they are adopting the Notre Dame model and going independent in football with their own TV deal. But the WCC gives them absolutely nothing for the rest of their sports. The Big East would be a dream come true for them with major market exposure and a big time TV contract.

I think there is no doubt that Gonzaga and BYU would make the jump and I also have no doubt that the rest of the league can manage the logistics. The PAC XII and the Ivy League have already shown how to manage schedules to create paired scheduling on weekends to minimize the impact of travel. It's very doable as one western road trip per year at worst. Frankly, for Gonzaga & BYU it's not much different than what Miami had to manage in the old Big East or what Colorado is managing in the PAC XII. Except that Miami had no travel partner.
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2013 05:53 AM by Melky Cabrera.)
09-08-2013 05:39 AM
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TheRock Offline
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Post: #2
RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 05:39 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  They will think outside the box and outside the footprint. In fact, Fox may push them to do just that because there really are no good choices within the footprint, which is why they stopped at 10 the first time around. The choices are not likely to get any better by waiting. So, they make the move to the school with institutional fit with the highest profile:

Gonzaga

I'm obviously not the first one to think about them. There are all of the obvious objections. Too far. Too many time zones. Sitting out there on an island. It will never happen. We can't change the distance, but we can note that except for Portland, Gonzaga already travels between 900 - 1500 miles for all the rest of their conference games on the West Coast. So, the distance will increase, but they're already getting on a plane for every sport in which they compete in the WCC.

As far as time zones are concerned, that is a big problem. West Virginia is already finding the combination of distance and a time zone change to be a major problem for them. And that's only one time zone. But WVu is traveling west and coming back east. Going in the other direction actually helps on the return trip and is much more doable. For the rest of the league it's a max of one trip out west per year. Not a big deal; many of them already do that.

Being out on an island is something that can be accommodated. Find a second team out west that draws big attendance, has a high profile, will boost TV ratings, is always competitive, and has the private school institutional fit with no football. That would give Gonzaga a travel partner and allow the rest of the league to pick up 2 games with one road trip the way that the PAC XII does. Such a school does exist:

BYU

If the BYU is serious about going independent in football for the long haul, adding them for all other sports would be no different than adding Notre Dame, which the Big East would do in a New York minute.

No one else available would increase the conference's competitive profile and TV ratings the way that the combination of Gonzaga and BYU would. In fact, I would venture to say that such an announcement would be a blockbuster. Fox would love it. I suspect that they're already thinking of it because if I can see it, so can they.

In spite of all of the travel and logistical obstacles, it's really an offer that Gonzaga and BYU can't refuse. Right now Gonzaga has a ceiling on how far they can grow their program because they play in a mid major conference comparable to the MAAC. The home attendance for all the other WCC schools except BYU averages in the 2000-3000 range. Some are less. It's really awful even for the better schools in the league. Gonzaga has outgrown that conference.

It's even worse for BYU. What the LDS wants out of BYU sports is exposure. That's why they are adopting the Notre Dame model and going independent in football with their own TV deal. But the WCC gives them absolutely nothing for the rest of their sports. The Big East would be a dream come true for them with major market exposure and a big time TV contract.

I think there is no doubt that Gonzaga and BYU would make the jump and I also have no doubt that the rest of the league can manage the logistics. The PAC XII and the Ivy League have already shown how to manage schedules to create paired scheduling on weekends to minimize the impact of travel. It's very doable as one western road trip per year at worst. Frankly, for Gonzaga & BYU it's not much different than what Miami had to manage in the old Big East or what Colorado is managing in the PAC XII. Except that Miami had no travel partner.

I agree about needing to treat 11 & 12 different than 1-10 and I agree that Fox will push for a different standard for $$ reasons. So my question is that if the independent model would work for BYU, why not Uconn or Cincy or Memphis? Any 2 of those 3 choices would be better than BYU & the Zags IMO.
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2013 06:22 AM by TheRock.)
09-08-2013 06:22 AM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 06:22 AM)TheRock Wrote:  I agree about needing to treat 11 & 12 different than 1-10 and I agree that Fox will push for a different standard for $$ reasons. So my question is that if the independent model would work for BYU, why not Uconn or Cincy or Memphis? Any 2 of those 3 choices would be better than BYU & the Zags IMO.

Any of those 3 would of course be a great catch for basketball.

We know that BYU can be a successful independent on the Notre Dame model because they already have a TV contract in hand. UConn has no history in football, Memphis has a terrible history, and Cincy has not enough market appeal. None of them are getting a TV contract as an indy, but all of them have delusions of grandeur that they may some day join a P5 football conference, so they will stay where they are for now.

They all have other problems in that they are all public and all would be flight risks. None brings a great market. Memphis has poor academics and a history of scandal with their last 2 Final Fours both vacated for violations. Cincinnati is a total non-starter because they are in the same city as Xavier.

I could see UConn if they gave up on aspirations for big time football. But as someone who lives in CT, I can tell you that isn't happening any time soon. The state has simply invested too much money in the program to give up on it so soon. The university has its sights set on a P5 conference, which they believe is as important to maintaining their top notch basketball program as it is for football.

Ultimately the big catch for the Big East is Gonzaga. BYU comes into play because with them as a travel partner, Gonzaga becomes a more viable addition.
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2013 06:58 AM by Melky Cabrera.)
09-08-2013 06:57 AM
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TheRock Offline
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 06:57 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 06:22 AM)TheRock Wrote:  I agree about needing to treat 11 & 12 different than 1-10 and I agree that Fox will push for a different standard for $$ reasons. So my question is that if the independent model would work for BYU, why not Uconn or Cincy or Memphis? Any 2 of those 3 choices would be better than BYU & the Zags IMO.

Any of those 3 would of course be a great catch for basketball.

We know that BYU can be a successful independent on the Notre Dame model because they already have a TV contract in hand. UConn has no history in football, Memphis has a terrible history, and Cincy has not enough market appeal. None of them are getting a TV contract as an indy, but all of them have delusions of grandeur that they may some day join a P5 football conference, so they will stay where they are for now.

They all have other problems in that they are all public and all would be flight risks. None brings a great market. Memphis has poor academics and a history of scandal with their last 2 Final Fours both vacated for violations. Cincinnati is a total non-starter because they are in the same city as Xavier.

I could see UConn if they gave up on aspirations for big time football. But as someone who lives in CT, I can tell you that isn't happening any time soon. The state has simply invested too much money in the program to give up on it so soon. The university has its sights set on a P5 conference, which they believe is as important to maintaining their top notch basketball program as it is for football.

Ultimately the big catch for the Big East is Gonzaga. BYU comes into play because with them as a travel partner, Gonzaga becomes a more viable addition.

Good points, but let me clarify my thought though:

1) Even though your points against "my 3" are valid, the BE & Fox have to acknowledge that our new conference model may need a bump down the road that only these schools can provide to avoid mid-major status.

2) For the schools I named, I'm considering they may come to the realization that Big Time fb may have given up on them for the foreseeable future.

3) My assumption actually wasn't necessarily going Indy for my 3, instead joining a lower tier D1 conference (D2 anyone?) that will not compel the schools to support the heavy expenses required trying to achieve P5 status that may never come. I think some of them may be considering back tracking/downgrading on their own at some point. (memphis?)

4) The "new" BE will be strong enough to handle 1 or 2 potential defections in the next 10-15 years. Richmond, VCU, SLU, Dayton, etc will still be there. You just can't have half the league looking to leave, no conference can manage that like was recently the case.
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2013 07:20 AM by TheRock.)
09-08-2013 07:19 AM
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bmorex Offline
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
I've always been a fan of adding Gonzaga and BYU sans football.
09-08-2013 09:17 AM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 05:39 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  For the rest of the league it's a max of one trip out west per year. Not a big deal; many of them already do that.

They may already do it for basketball, but I bet most do not already do it for ALL OLYMPIC SPORTS as would have to be the case if they joined the conference, they wouldn't join, just for basketball. It's not revenue sport travel that schools cringe at, it's the non and low revenue sports with more players and equipment to travel with that gets expensive.
09-08-2013 09:59 AM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
I'm all for what you are saying Melky, I don't think the east coast Big East schools are though....
09-08-2013 10:47 AM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 09:59 AM)IceJus10 Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 05:39 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  For the rest of the league it's a max of one trip out west per year. Not a big deal; many of them already do that.

They may already do it for basketball, but I bet most do not already do it for ALL OLYMPIC SPORTS as would have to be the case if they joined the conference, they wouldn't join, just for basketball. It's not revenue sport travel that schools cringe at, it's the non and low revenue sports with more players and equipment to travel with that gets expensive.

It's not necessary for all other sports to make that trip every year. There are creative ways to work the schedule out so that it's doable. Gonzaga doesn't have to play everyone in baseball every year. It might mean a road trip to Spokane once every 3 or 4 years for the baseball team. Maybe some schools never go out there or are on even a longer rotation.

Fact is that the Big East made it work with Miami and that was a 1600 mile trip for some schools. I know that Spokane is farther, but once you're talking that kind of distance, you need a day each way just to travel.

If the East Coast teams don't want to expand out west, their other option is VCU and St. Louis. There really is no one else at this point who is a viable candidate and VCU & St. Louis both have their shortcomings as have been pointed out by many posters. With the 10 teams they have now, they have set the bar high. They really can't afford to lower it from where it is now. And frankly I doubt that Fox will allow them to.
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2013 01:17 PM by Melky Cabrera.)
09-08-2013 12:35 PM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 09:59 AM)IceJus10 Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 05:39 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  For the rest of the league it's a max of one trip out west per year. Not a big deal; many of them already do that.

They may already do it for basketball, but I bet most do not already do it for ALL OLYMPIC SPORTS as would have to be the case if they joined the conference, they wouldn't join, just for basketball. It's not revenue sport travel that schools cringe at, it's the non and low revenue sports with more players and equipment to travel with that gets expensive.

Actually the only teams that would have to travel (other than conference championships) would be for BYU Baseball, softball, voleyball and womens soccer. Gonzaga baseball,volleyball and mens and womens soccer. Not ideal, but not outrageous either.
Denver baseball,softball, volleyball and mens and womens soccer
09-08-2013 12:44 PM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
I don't think any school with FBS football will be considered. I think the C7 are tired of dealing with members looking towards the door all the time. BYU is a big time flight risk. Same with the teams in the AAC.
09-08-2013 07:11 PM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
I don't think for a second that the Big East will try to expand with schools out west. The logical choice for expansion is Saint Louis and one of Richmond, Dayton, and VCU. This new branded conference of basketball schools first will not go beyond the regional sectors just to please TV.

This new conference has went through this once and will not go down this road again just to appease the TV gods for teams on the west coast. As of right now I am having a hard time wondering WHY they are looking to expand unless FOX is wanting to increase their stock. If expansion is going to happen then St. Louis would be a logical choice that would also connect Creighton with the others which brings several NEW TV sets, and another school like Richmond would bring in more TV's with another new state to the fold.

I would hope the new regime of the Big East would only add schools regionally for any thing else would look ridiculous just like the proposed expansion of the old regime that caused the conference to fall and crumble with the likes of adding teams out west. Good luck into what you do, but going west I doubt happens.
09-08-2013 08:39 PM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 07:11 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  I don't think any school with FBS football will be considered. I think the C7 are tired of dealing with members looking towards the door all the time. BYU is a big time flight risk. Same with the teams in the AAC.

Do you think that that they would take Notre Dame if they were available?
09-08-2013 08:49 PM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 08:49 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 07:11 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  I don't think any school with FBS football will be considered. I think the C7 are tired of dealing with members looking towards the door all the time. BYU is a big time flight risk. Same with the teams in the AAC.

Do you think that that they would take Notre Dame if they were available?

Notre Dame is the biggest name in college sports, they have been in the conference with 7 of these schools before, they are in the conference footprint and they aren't mormons. Oh and Notre Dame definitely doesn't want to join a conference for FB while BYU would accept an invite to the Big XII and Pac in a heartbeat.
09-08-2013 10:58 PM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
Melky, I'm in favor of Gonzaga and BYU being added if the logistics can be worked out with the travel. However I'm curious what your opinion is of the BE snagging the biggest catch of all, that being UCONN. That's the addition I'm still holding out hope for. My thinking goes like this, I think the next conference likely to expand is the B12 and it will likely be Cincy and one other that goes. Should that happen, then the AAC becomes even more of a disaster for UCONN than it already is. The financial deck is already stacked enough against you guys. I realize UCONN has sunk a lot of money into the football program, but just like in poker, it doesn't matter how much you've put in the pot, once you realize you hold a losing hand it's best to fold. I don't mean discontinue football altogether, but maybe head to the MAC, like Temple did a few years ago. In fact, I'm not sure the MAC isn't better than the AAC right now in football. I think when basketball season starts and you guys are away playing at places like ECU, Tulane and Houston, the reality will hit you, that what are you doing there? Plus, virtually every AAC team would leave tomorrow if a P5 invitation came. What kind of security is that? Being back in the BE reunites you with many old rivals, brings far more money, and is a more convenient home for your olympic sports. Plus much of the Big East's finest history, is UCONN's history as well. I truly believe it's in UCONN's best interests to consider this. And finally, I realize there are some that don't want any football playing, potential flight risks added to the conference. Having one or two teams that could possibly leave, within a 14 or 16 team league, is not that big a deal. It's not like in the BE of a few years ago, where nobody trusted anyone else, and half the league was looking to go. Plus even if they did leave, there are still good replacements to choose from, should that happen. So while I'm in favor of Gonzaga, BYU, St Louis, VCU being closely considered, I want to find a way to get UCONN back home where they belong.
09-08-2013 11:22 PM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 10:58 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 08:49 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 07:11 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  I don't think any school with FBS football will be considered. I think the C7 are tired of dealing with members looking towards the door all the time. BYU is a big time flight risk. Same with the teams in the AAC.

Do you think that that they would take Notre Dame if they were available?

Notre Dame is the biggest name in college sports, they have been in the conference with 7 of these schools before, they are in the conference footprint and they aren't mormons. Oh and Notre Dame definitely doesn't want to join a conference for FB while BYU would accept an invite to the Big XII and Pac in a heartbeat.

My only point was that there is a school with FBS football that would be considered. So, FBS football in and of itself is not the problem.

BYU is a mini-Notre Dame. Not as bid a name, but a big name with national appeal nonetheless. They are currently in a conference with mostly Catholic schools, one of whom is or should be the prime target for the BE if they want to expand. There is little or no anti-Mormon bias among Catholics, so that is a non-issue. While Notre Dame is in the footprint, BYU offers a different geographic advantage. They are the perfect travel partner for Gonzaga.

Notre Dame doesn't want to join a conference, but they haven't ruled it out. If forced to do so, they will. But their intention not to do so would be enough for the BE. BYU has apparently adopted the ND model (That would have to be verified.) If they wanted to be in the Big XII, they already would be. By all reports there we negotiations and it was a no-go. By every indication, the PAC XII has no interest in them. So, what's left for them? They've chosen independence in football. The WCC is the equivalent of the MAAC. They are totally out of place there. I'm betting that they would jump at the opportunity to join the Big East.
09-09-2013 08:11 AM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 11:22 PM)hoops22 Wrote:  Melky, I'm in favor of Gonzaga and BYU being added if the logistics can be worked out with the travel. However I'm curious what your opinion is of the BE snagging the biggest catch of all, that being UCONN. That's the addition I'm still holding out hope for. My thinking goes like this, I think the next conference likely to expand is the B12 and it will likely be Cincy and one other that goes. Should that happen, then the AAC becomes even more of a disaster for UCONN than it already is. The financial deck is already stacked enough against you guys. I realize UCONN has sunk a lot of money into the football program, but just like in poker, it doesn't matter how much you've put in the pot, once you realize you hold a losing hand it's best to fold. I don't mean discontinue football altogether, but maybe head to the MAC, like Temple did a few years ago. In fact, I'm not sure the MAC isn't better than the AAC right now in football. I think when basketball season starts and you guys are away playing at places like ECU, Tulane and Houston, the reality will hit you, that what are you doing there? Plus, virtually every AAC team would leave tomorrow if a P5 invitation came. What kind of security is that? Being back in the BE reunites you with many old rivals, brings far more money, and is a more convenient home for your olympic sports. Plus much of the Big East's finest history, is UCONN's history as well. I truly believe it's in UCONN's best interests to consider this. And finally, I realize there are some that don't want any football playing, potential flight risks added to the conference. Having one or two teams that could possibly leave, within a 14 or 16 team league, is not that big a deal. It's not like in the BE of a few years ago, where nobody trusted anyone else, and half the league was looking to go. Plus even if they did leave, there are still good replacements to choose from, should that happen. So while I'm in favor of Gonzaga, BYU, St Louis, VCU being closely considered, I want to find a way to get UCONN back home where they belong.

Hoops, I agree with everything you say. But I just don't think that the climate at UConn is anywhere close to seeing things the way you and I do. They have their hearts set on getting into a P5 conference and will stay away from anything that might be perceived as a downgrade to their football program. They will throw the kitchen sink at football if they need to. I expect that Pasqualoni will be gone after this season - barring a miracle. I expect that they will try to hire a name coach who can turn football around ASAP.

If the BE could get UConn, it would be great. But I see that as beyond being a long shot. It just is not happening.

Your 4 BE choices are the same as mine. This league should strive to be the best basketball conference in the country, which means not settling for mid majors like Richmond or a school like Dayton which has been unable to get its program on track despite good support in attendance from its fans.
(This post was last modified: 09-09-2013 08:22 AM by Melky Cabrera.)
09-09-2013 08:21 AM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 09:59 AM)IceJus10 Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 05:39 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  For the rest of the league it's a max of one trip out west per year. Not a big deal; many of them already do that.

They may already do it for basketball, but I bet most do not already do it for ALL OLYMPIC SPORTS as would have to be the case if they joined the conference, they wouldn't join, just for basketball. It's not revenue sport travel that schools cringe at, it's the non and low revenue sports with more players and equipment to travel with that gets expensive.

If you actually look at their schedules, most go to Florida or California once a year - especially for soccer, track and field/XC, and volleyball.

It really wouldn't be that much more.
(This post was last modified: 09-09-2013 09:36 AM by aughnanure.)
09-09-2013 09:34 AM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
Stop with the UConn obsession. They will be in the B1G or ACC w/in 5 years.
09-09-2013 09:38 AM
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 10:58 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 08:49 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 07:11 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  I don't think any school with FBS football will be considered. I think the C7 are tired of dealing with members looking towards the door all the time. BYU is a big time flight risk. Same with the teams in the AAC.

Do you think that that they would take Notre Dame if they were available?

Notre Dame is the biggest name in college sports, they have been in the conference with 7 of these schools before, they are in the conference footprint and they aren't mormons. Oh and Notre Dame definitely doesn't want to join a conference for FB while BYU would accept an invite to the Big XII and Pac in a heartbeat.


While I agree, I dont think BYU is as great of a flight risk as you claim. If they really wanted to be, they'd have gone to the Big XII a year ago, but they're sticklers and stubborn and won't budge on many issues.

They really can make the independent thing work and the Big East would make it the most viable. They have their own television network, a national following not all that different than Notre Dame.
09-09-2013 09:41 AM
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MU88 Offline
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RE: If the Big East really wants to go big time . . .
(09-08-2013 10:58 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Notre Dame is the biggest name in college sports, they have been in the conference with 7 of these schools before, they are in the conference footprint and they aren't mormons. Oh and Notre Dame definitely doesn't want to join a conference for FB while BYU would accept an invite to the Big XII and Pac in a heartbeat.

Actually, ND has been in conference with 9 of the BE schools. It was in the North Star with X, DePaul and MU (girls conference) and was in the MCC with X, Butler, and MU (men's sports but football and basketball).
09-09-2013 10:20 AM
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