(09-11-2013 11:23 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-10-2013 02:38 PM)bostonspider Wrote:  Do you really think that the presidents of these mostly Catholic Universities would really vote to invite a Morman school in Utah into the Big East? One with a FBS football team and its own tv network set up to convert people to mormonism?

Do you really think that Fox will continue to pay major dollars for a watered down product with Richmond and St Louis?

Back to attacking Saint Louis, are we? Watered down with SLU? After what SLU did to VCU and Butler, you gotta come better than that.

(09-11-2013 11:48 PM)LouPower Wrote:  

(09-11-2013 11:23 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-10-2013 02:38 PM)bostonspider Wrote:  Do you really think that the presidents of these mostly Catholic Universities would really vote to invite a Morman school in Utah into the Big East? One with a FBS football team and its own tv network set up to convert people to mormonism?

Do you really think that Fox will continue to pay major dollars for a watered down product with Richmond and St Louis?

Back to attacking Saint Louis, are we? Watered down with SLU? After what SLU did to VCU and Butler, you gotta come better than that.

Lou, everyone knows SLU is #11 unless some unlikely options come into play. Chill.

That said, SLU would probably be lower tier in this league and what some of us want is to increase the profile of the conference.

Lot of people have been attacking SLU during this process. It seems that there's plenty of contempt out there from a lot of different angles.

We just get tired of hearing how much we suck.

(09-11-2013 11:48 PM)LouPower Wrote:  

(09-11-2013 11:23 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-10-2013 02:38 PM)bostonspider Wrote:  Do you really think that the presidents of these mostly Catholic Universities would really vote to invite a Morman school in Utah into the Big East? One with a FBS football team and its own tv network set up to convert people to mormonism?

Do you really think that Fox will continue to pay major dollars for a watered down product with Richmond and St Louis?

Back to attacking Saint Louis, are we? Watered down with SLU? After what SLU did to VCU and Butler, you gotta come better than that.

I'm not attacking St Louis. For a long time, I've been in favor of the Billikens. I won't feel bad if St Louis is added. There are certainly worse choices.

Recently, I've moved away from St Louis as a good addition. I'm just trying to be objective. The problem with St Louis is that they have never demonstrated the ability to build a program and then sustain it at a high level of success. And that's while playing in mid major conferences. If I'm Fox and I'm investing my money, why do I see them as a good return on investment?

If I'm Fox, I look around and Insee Gonzaga. #1 in the country last year. 15 straight years in the tournament. National name recognition. I say to the BE presidents: "Hey, guys, I know that distance and travel is a problem, but they're a perfect fit and that's the kind of product we're paying for. Make it work."

And then I'd point out that both BYU are out there as quality programs who've proven that they can compete at this level. I'd say: "take your pick for #12."

Now if they wait for 5 years as the Xavier AD suggests and SLU keeps up what they've done the past 2 years, then it could be a different decision.

(09-12-2013 12:01 AM)LouPower Wrote:  Lot of people have been attacking SLU during this process. It seems that there's plenty of contempt out there from a lot of different angles.

We just get tired of hearing how much we suck.

honestly, i think you have a complex, lol...SLU is a great school, academically, and athletically...how many soccer champs? a decent, if improving, bball team...I'm sure I'm missing something...Academically, not that far from Wash U...you all would be a good, if not great, addition, from a bball perspective, but it wouldn't piss me off.

Cheers to your continued support of your team and of my league.

Melky, have you ever been to Spokane? it makes Elizabeth and Newark look nice and cultured, tbh

(09-12-2013 12:13 AM)The Turk Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 12:01 AM)LouPower Wrote:  Lot of people have been attacking SLU during this process. It seems that there's plenty of contempt out there from a lot of different angles.

We just get tired of hearing how much we suck.

honestly, i think you have a complex, lol...SLU is a great school, academically, and athletically...how many soccer champs? a decent, if improving, bball team...I'm sure I'm missing something...Academically, not that far from Wash U...you all would be a good, if not great, addition, from a bball perspective, but it wouldn't piss me off.

Cheers to your continued support of your team and of my league.

I do. Most SLU fans do. It's called Biondi-itis. I appreciate good basketball wherever it is.

(09-12-2013 12:30 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 12:13 AM)The Turk Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 12:01 AM)LouPower Wrote:  Lot of people have been attacking SLU during this process. It seems that there's plenty of contempt out there from a lot of different angles.

We just get tired of hearing how much we suck.

honestly, i think you have a complex, lol...SLU is a great school, academically, and athletically...how many soccer champs? a decent, if improving, bball team...I'm sure I'm missing something...Academically, not that far from Wash U...you all would be a good, if not great, addition, from a bball perspective, but it wouldn't piss me off.

Cheers to your continued support of your team and of my league.

I do. Most SLU fans do. It's called Biondi-itis. I appreciate good basketball wherever it is.

you all are a great school, and a great bball school...i'd love to replace some of our members with you if we were to stay at 10, i want you as my first choice post byu/uconn/zaga...and you're the first, most realistic choice for the conference...so you're gonna make it....act like you belong tho, ffs.

Gomzaga is not being considered. You all need to accept that. Did the Xavier AD mention them or BYU? No. So why do you think they are actually being considered? BYU? Are you freaking kidding me? We've been talking about this and sifting through every interview looking for clues and not once EVER did BYU come up. Now all if a sudden we're supposed to believe that if we don't invite those cafine free drinkers were all screwed? Please, give me a break.

You guys have some nerve talking about SLU like that. The team who just outright won the A-10 last year.

Going west was dismissed right out of the gate and we've all accepted that these last 9 months. Gonzaga is NOT coming. BYU is NOT coming. Creighton is our western boarder. Get used to it.

Talk to any of the MWC schools from when BYU was in the league. They are not fans if how that school conducts itself. I remember all the stories from the TCU and SD St fans on here from when they were supposed to join up. They basically said BYU was a constant headache.

(09-12-2013 09:21 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Gomzaga is not being considered. You all need to accept that. Did the Xavier AD mention them or BYU? No. So why do you think they are actually being considered? BYU? Are you freaking kidding me? We've been talking about this and sifting through every interview looking for clues and not once EVER did BYU come up. Now all if a sudden we're supposed to believe that if we don't invite those cafine free drinkers were all screwed? Please, give me a break.

You guys have some nerve talking about SLU like that. The team who just outright won the A-10 last year.

Going west was dismissed right out of the gate and we've all accepted that these last 9 months. Gonzaga is NOT coming. BYU is NOT coming. Creighton is our western boarder. Get used to it.

Talk to any of the MWC schools from when BYU was in the league. They are not fans if how that school conducts itself. I remember all the stories from the TCU and SD St fans on here from when they were supposed to join up. They basically said BYU was a constant headache.

Yeah, I agree. I'm someone that has generally downplayed the geography factor in conference realignment compared to other metrics, but Gonzaga to the Big East is a situation where the geography is untenable. This whole Big East expansion process has really been about who should be paired up with SLU (I really can't understand anyone that denies that they are next in line at this point - they are an exact cultural fit in a large market with a solid on-the-court program). The other 3 have major warts compared to SLU (Dayton's market isn't desirable, VCU is a public school and Richmond has a tiny enrollment and fan base). The problem is that it's not as if though any of those warts are going to get rectified and there isn't another compelling school in the A-10 or other leagues that you can see suddenly rising up AND fitting in with the Big East culture and TV market needs in the way that Butler did. The only 2 schools other than the 4 mentioned above that could plausibly fit into the conversation if the Big East waits around are (a) Duquesne because of its market and cultural fit, but that would take a Final Four run from a program that hasn't even made the tournament in over 30 years and (b) Davidson, which has a similar tiny enrollment issue as Richmond but is in a better TV market and basketball recruiting ground, has had some great recent NCAA Tournament success, and the academics are stellar.

Otherwise, the likelihood that some magical hidden program that's going to pop out of nowhere in a major market that the Big East hasn't considered yet is extremely low. Frankly, I don't know what the heck the Big East presidents are waiting for. This is a situation where they should pull the trigger while they have the poaching power to do so.

(09-11-2013 11:16 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  With attendance under 3,000 in a good hear, St. Mary's wouldn't be considered in a million years. People laughed when Siena was suggested, but there attendance was more than double St. Mary's and that was in a down year.

Fox will make sure that the Big East considers BYU. They are the ONLY option that makes sense as a travel partner for Gonzaga. If they are going to expand to 12, Gonzaga is the only school that is a perfect for (except for geography). Otherwise, they can look to VCU. There really is no one else out there who has demonstrated that they can compete and this level and can make the conference better.

Hypothetically, I think a western expansion would need to come with more than 2 schools. While I hate divisions, in this case 3 divisions of 5 could work with the right schools. A western group of Gonzaga, BYU, Denver, Creighton and team 5 (SLU / western school) would compliment the eastern group of 5 and a Midwest 4 plus one and make the conference national. I don't think the current schools aspire to be a national conference though.

Come on. People seem to be assuming FOX has as much clout as ESPN did. They don't. Fox Sports is a start up and needs the Big East as much as the Big East needs FS. There will be conversations between the two parties, but Fox won't have any real say.

(09-12-2013 11:47 AM)itsmejpt Wrote:  Come on. People seem to be assuming FOX has as much clout as ESPN did. They don't. Fox Sports is a start up and needs the Big East as much as the Big East needs FS. There will be conversations between the two parties, but Fox won't have any real say.

They are far from a silent partner. They are a partner yes, silent no. Fox is going after the Big Ten & NBA next.

(09-12-2013 01:01 PM)BigmanU Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 11:47 AM)itsmejpt Wrote:  Come on. People seem to be assuming FOX has as much clout as ESPN did. They don't. Fox Sports is a start up and needs the Big East as much as the Big East needs FS. There will be conversations between the two parties, but Fox won't have any real say.

They are far from a silent partner. They are a partner yes, silent no. Fox is going after the Big Ten & NBA next.

But that doesn't mean they are making conference decisions.

(09-12-2013 09:21 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Gomzaga is not being considered. You all need to accept that. Did the Xavier AD mention them or BYU? No. So why do you think they are actually being considered? BYU? Are you freaking kidding me? We've been talking about this and sifting through every interview looking for clues and not once EVER did BYU come up. Now all if a sudden we're supposed to believe that if we don't invite those cafine free drinkers were all screwed? Please, give me a break.

You guys have some nerve talking about SLU like that. The team who just outright won the A-10 last year.

Going west was dismissed right out of the gate and we've all accepted that these last 9 months. Gonzaga is NOT coming. BYU is NOT coming. Creighton is our western boarder. Get used to it.

Talk to any of the MWC schools from when BYU was in the league. They are not fans if how that school conducts itself. I remember all the stories from the TCU and SD St fans on here from when they were supposed to join up. They basically said BYU was a constant headache.

Red Man, do you have an inside contact? If you don't, then you have no idea who's being considered. The fact that the Xavier AD didn't mention them means nothing. Did you listen to the interview? He made it clear that the4 mentioned were not the list from whom the new additions were being picked. He gave them as examples of programs about whom there has been a lot of speculation. That's all.

I have not once said that Gonzaga is being considered. My point is that there really is no one else out there who is viable at this level other than VCU. It doesn't take a genius to see that. Gonzaga was in fact mentioned in the early reports. They ate an obvious fit both institutionally and competitively. I believe that Fox will therefore bring the Big East back to reconsidering them. That's just my opinion, not a statement that I know they're being considered. None of us know who's on that list.

We have no idea if going west was dismissed out of the gate. We do know that they opted not to go there in the first stage. That made sense for 2 reasons. First they had enough quality programs to go to 10 without Gonzaga. second, the logistics of Gonzaga's geography really are impossible in a 10 team league. However, once a league goes to 12, we're bringing divisional play into the conversation, which does make accommodating a western school much more doable.

I'm not saying that the conference needs to add BYU or they're screwed. I'm saying that the failure to add Gonzaga would represent a big step backward if this conference is serious about competing on the same level as the P5. Gonzaga is yhe key. Once Gonzaga is in, then it makes sense to talk about a travel partner and BYU is the only one who qualifies. Personally I'd rather see them stop at 10. I don't see any point in going beyond that in basketball. If it's Fox who's driving expansion to 12 as seems likely, then Fox is going to have something to say about what additions they're willing to pay for.

As for St Louis, I'm well aware that they just won the A10. I'm also aware that they've gone to back to back tournaments and have won a game in each of those tournaments. Unfortunately for them I'm equally aware that you have to go back 12 years to find another tournament appearance. That's not indicative of a program that has demonstrated even at the mid major level that they are capable of maintaining a level of success once they've achieved it. That's not insulting St Louis; it's simple stating a fact. IMO Fox will not see St Louis as a program from which they can expect a good return on their investment. Why would they?

As for BYU being a headache, that wouldn't bother me - not when they are consistently competitive, sell out a 16000 seat arena, and boost TVRatings. But if the conference shares your concern, they can turn to VCU, which is the only other viable program put there. IMO, the benefits of BYU as a travel partner for Gonzaga outweigh any other headaches.

If in fact Omaha is the western border - a foolish decision IMO - then St Louis would indeed be a reasonably good add along with VCU, given what else is available.

(09-12-2013 01:14 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 01:01 PM)BigmanU Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 11:47 AM)itsmejpt Wrote:  Come on. People seem to be assuming FOX has as much clout as ESPN did. They don't. Fox Sports is a start up and needs the Big East as much as the Big East needs FS. There will be conversations between the two parties, but Fox won't have any real say.

They are far from a silent partner. They are a partner yes, silent no. Fox is going after the Big Ten & NBA next.

But that doesn't mean they are making conference decisions.

I didn't say Fox was making decisions. I said they are not a silent partner. Financially, Fox and the Big East both have a lot at stake. They are in a joint agreement and will make decisions accordingly.

(09-12-2013 01:14 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 01:01 PM)BigmanU Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 11:47 AM)itsmejpt Wrote:  Come on. People seem to be assuming FOX has as much clout as ESPN did. They don't. Fox Sports is a start up and needs the Big East as much as the Big East needs FS. There will be conversations between the two parties, but Fox won't have any real say.

They are far from a silent partner. They are a partner yes, silent no. Fox is going after the Big Ten & NBA next.

But that doesn't mean they are making conference decisions.

It doesn't? What do you think it means?

Fox doesn't have to make conference decisions to be a factor any more than any buyer gets to make product decisions. Fox does get to say what they're willing to pay for and what they're not.

The Big East can make its own decisions and watch the Fox money decline and eventually disappear if they ignore Fox's input. If they want to keep the gravy train rolling, they better give Fox a product it can sell. If they water down the conference with ill advised additions, they will reduce its value and will diminish Fox's interest.

From early reports last December, it seemed that Fox was the driving force to go to 12. So, if the Big East is expanding only at Fox's behest, don't you think that Fox will have something to say about what kind of additions they'll be willing to pay for and what they won't?

(09-12-2013 01:18 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 09:21 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Gomzaga is not being considered. You all need to accept that. Did the Xavier AD mention them or BYU? No. So why do you think they are actually being considered? BYU? Are you freaking kidding me? We've been talking about this and sifting through every interview looking for clues and not once EVER did BYU come up. Now all if a sudden we're supposed to believe that if we don't invite those cafine free drinkers were all screwed? Please, give me a break.

You guys have some nerve talking about SLU like that. The team who just outright won the A-10 last year.

Going west was dismissed right out of the gate and we've all accepted that these last 9 months. Gonzaga is NOT coming. BYU is NOT coming. Creighton is our western boarder. Get used to it.

Talk to any of the MWC schools from when BYU was in the league. They are not fans if how that school conducts itself. I remember all the stories from the TCU and SD St fans on here from when they were supposed to join up. They basically said BYU was a constant headache.

Red Man, do you have an inside contact? If you don't, then you have no idea who's being considered. The fact that the Xavier AD didn't mention them means nothing. Did you listen to the interview? He made it clear that the4 mentioned were not the list from whom the new additions were being picked. He gave them as examples of programs about whom there has been a lot of speculation. That's all.

I have not once said that Gonzaga is being considered. My point is that there really is no one else out there who is viable at this level other than VCU. It doesn't take a genius to see that. Gonzaga was in fact mentioned in the early reports. They ate an obvious fit both institutionally and competitively. I believe that Fox will therefore bring the Big East back to reconsidering them. That's just my opinion, not a statement that I know they're being considered. None of us know who's on that list.

We have no idea if going west was dismissed out of the gate. We do know that they opted not to go there in the first stage. That made sense for 2 reasons. First they had enough quality programs to go to 10 without Gonzaga. second, the logistics of Gonzaga's geography really are impossible in a 10 team league. However, once a league goes to 12, we're bringing divisional play into the conversation, which does make accommodating a western school much more doable.

I'm not saying that the conference needs to add BYU or they're screwed. I'm saying that the failure to add Gonzaga would represent a big step backward if this conference is serious about competing on the same level as the P5. Gonzaga is yhe key. Once Gonzaga is in, then it makes sense to talk about a travel partner and BYU is the only one who qualifies. Personally I'd rather see them stop at 10. I don't see any point in going beyond that in basketball. If it's Fox who's driving expansion to 12 as seems likely, then Fox is going to have something to say about what additions they're willing to pay for.

As for St Louis, I'm well aware that they just won the A10. I'm also aware that they've gone to back to back tournaments and have won a game in each of those tournaments. Unfortunately for them I'm equally aware that you have to go back 12 years to find another tournament appearance. That's not indicative of a program that has demonstrated even at the mid major level that they are capable of maintaining a level of success once they've achieved it. That's not insulting St Louis; it's simple stating a fact. IMO Fox will not see St Louis as a program from which they can expect a good return on their investment. Why would they?
As for BYU being a headache, that wouldn't bother me - not when they are consistently competitive, sell out a 16000 seat arena, and boost TVRatings. But if the conference shares your concern, they can turn to VCU, which is the only other viable program put there. IMO, the benefits of BYU as a travel partner for Gonzaga outweigh any other headaches.

If in fact Omaha is the western border - a foolish decision IMO - then St Louis would indeed be a reasonably good add along with VCU, given what else is available.

History's dead and buried. It's over now. That's fine, go back 12 years. Not one player or coach from that time is around. It's about what's best for the conference on the floor. St. Louis is a bigger TV market, and they've proven that they can win. Fox will want the market. If SLU was a .500 team or worse in A-10 play, you'd have a legitimate argument. They aren't.

(09-12-2013 11:47 AM)itsmejpt Wrote:  Come on. People seem to be assuming FOX has as much clout as ESPN did. They don't. Fox Sports is a start up and needs the Big East as much as the Big East needs FS. There will be conversations between the two parties, but Fox won't have any real say.

Wow! This would be a first. The person paying the tab has no say?

(09-12-2013 01:27 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 01:14 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 01:01 PM)BigmanU Wrote:  

(09-12-2013 11:47 AM)itsmejpt Wrote:  Come on. People seem to be assuming FOX has as much clout as ESPN did. They don't. Fox Sports is a start up and needs the Big East as much as the Big East needs FS. There will be conversations between the two parties, but Fox won't have any real say.

They are far from a silent partner. They are a partner yes, silent no. Fox is going after the Big Ten & NBA next.

But that doesn't mean they are making conference decisions.

It doesn't? What do you think it means?

Fox doesn't have to make conference decisions to be a factor any more than any buyer gets to make product decisions. Fox does get to say what they're willing to pay for and what they're not.

The Big East can make its own decisions and watch the Fox money decline and eventually disappear if they ignore Fox's input. If they want to keep the gravy train rolling, they better give Fox a product it can sell. If they water down the conference with ill advised additions, they will reduce its value and will diminish Fox's interest.

From early reports last December, it seemed that Fox was the driving force to go to 12. So, if the Big East is expanding only at Fox's behest, don't you think that Fox will have something to say about what kind of additions they'll be willing to pay for and what they won't?

Dude, having input is not the same as calling the shots.

Get over the fact that your idea isn't realistic. The Fox money isn't declining or disappearing. The conference always wanted to go to 12 but couldn't agree on who #12 would be. Fox has known all about this from the get go.