I agree it makes BU/Ford look bad, but it doesn't make Kent look good or make them look particularly attractive to coaching candidates at the same time. Hopefully the two sides settle before an appeal is filed.

Who wants coaching candidates who want to weasel out of their contracts? I hope those coaches go somewhere else. Since this went down, KSU has had successful football and baseball coaches leave mid-contract with class, living up to their contracts, and KSU was able able to hire a couple of class coaches to replace them. I'm glad the Ford's of the world will want to go elsewhere.

(07-18-2013 02:21 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I agree it makes BU/Ford look bad, but it doesn't make Kent look good or make them look particularly attractive to coaching candidates at the same time. Hopefully the two sides settle before an appeal is filed.

What would Jim Les say about how Bradley treats head coaches? And, haven't you argued in three different posts that KSU was able to place a highly qualified basketball coach after Ford?

(07-18-2013 04:39 PM)FlashFan Wrote:  

(07-18-2013 02:21 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I agree it makes BU/Ford look bad, but it doesn't make Kent look good or make them look particularly attractive to coaching candidates at the same time. Hopefully the two sides settle before an appeal is filed.

What would Jim Les say about how Bradley treats head coaches? And, haven't you argued in three different posts that KSU was able to place a highly qualified basketball coach after Ford?

Jim Les is bitter towards the administration, I can tell you that. And many Bradley people take his side. But he and Bradley did settle awhile back. I don't know what your point is or why you want to talk about that. I said it makes them look bad.

Senderoff was hired before this suit was filed. At the time he was hired nobody knew whether this would've been settled or not. There's also the fact many other schools won't touch him because he has a bad name in the coaching community due to the Sampson ties, but his qualifications are very good and he had been around the program and had a relationship with the players. Maybe I'm wrong here but I think coaches don't like seeing schools getting litigious when their coaches leave to double their salaries and this may affect their candidate pool next time around.

Not at all. They just replaced the football coach with a Coordinator from an SEC power school that took a pay cut to do it. And football has been a historically horrible program. They'll be fine when the time comes to replace this b-ball coach.

"Historically horrible" but coming off the best season in school history, a BCS ranking as high as 17th, whisker away from the Orange Bowl and returning an all American in Dri Archer.

He's a coordinator from an SEC school (Arkansas) that had probably the second most disappointing season in the nation behind USC and might not have been around much longer. Did Bielema offer him to stay on? I don't remember.

Does it matter? He'd have taken the job coming off an 0-12 season. They fielded a ton of qualified applicants for the job. They also hired a highly qualified baseball coach from another pool of solid candidates.

It matters because someone offered him as evidence that candidates aren't shying away. Maybe they're not, but that hire isn't very convincing. I don't know how you can know he would've taken the job if the Flashes just went 0-12.

Re: a ton of qualified applicants, applicants sometimes withdraw when they learn more information about the environment. In fact I heard Rob Jeter did that to Bradley which is why they went after Ford.

I don't know about the baseball situation, but I don't think it would affect olympic sports much, where salaries are lower and there's less mobility among coaches.

Coach Haynes is a KSU football alum and also applied for the job after Martin was fired. HE got beat out for the job by Hazell. That is part of why PH suggests that he would've taken the job if Kent went 0-12.

(07-19-2013 04:38 PM)Max Power Wrote:  It matters because someone offered him as evidence that candidates aren't shying away. Maybe they're not, but that hire isn't very convincing. I don't know how you can know he would've taken the job if the Flashes just went 0-12.

Re: a ton of qualified applicants, applicants sometimes withdraw when they learn more information about the environment. In fact I heard Rob Jeter did that to Bradley which is why they went after Ford.

I don't know about the baseball situation, but I don't think it would affect olympic sports much, where salaries are lower and there's less mobility among coaches.

Let me understand your theory.

Bradley University, who was nearly sued by an alumni coach when the BU administration failed to live up to the terms of his contract and was sued by KSU for interference in hiring his replacement, does not have a damaged brand for coaches as a result of this mess.

You contend that KSU, on the other hand, who has had five basketball coaches in ten years and never had a problem with any departures except Geno Ford, has an image problem because Ford was the 1 in 4 basketball coaches who left in mid contract with his middle finger in the air. And, the fact that we've hired our top choice in head coaches in football, baseball, men's basketball and women's basketball since Geno's departure is irrelevant.

It's difficult to wrap my head around such flawed logic. Thought you deserve a second chance to reason this out.

(07-19-2013 06:36 PM)FlashFan Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 04:38 PM)Max Power Wrote:  It matters because someone offered him as evidence that candidates aren't shying away. Maybe they're not, but that hire isn't very convincing. I don't know how you can know he would've taken the job if the Flashes just went 0-12.

Re: a ton of qualified applicants, applicants sometimes withdraw when they learn more information about the environment. In fact I heard Rob Jeter did that to Bradley which is why they went after Ford.

I don't know about the baseball situation, but I don't think it would affect olympic sports much, where salaries are lower and there's less mobility among coaches.

Let me understand your theory.

Bradley University, who was nearly sued by an alumni coach when the BU administration failed to live up to the terms of his contract and was sued by KSU for interference in hiring his replacement, does not have a damaged brand for coaches as a result of this mess.

You contend that KSU, on the other hand, who has had five basketball coaches in ten years and never had a problem with any departures except Geno Ford, has an image problem because Ford was the 1 in 4 basketball coaches who left in mid contract with his middle finger in the air. And, the fact that we've hired our top choice in head coaches in football, baseball, men's basketball and women's basketball since Geno's departure is irrelevant.

It's difficult to wrap my head around such flawed logic. Thought you deserve a second chance to reason this out.

Well, whom KSU hires is absolutely irrelevant to the Ford and Bradley lawsuits. Complete red herring.

And, as a point of fact, our departing baseball coach was the highest paid coach at KSU with a salary around $450k, so it is a big deal at KSU whom we hire to coach baseball.

That's a completely dishonest misrepresentation of what I've been saying. I've been very clear Bradley looks bad and very critical of the BU administration in this thread.--

Quote:I agree it makes BU/Ford look bad, but it doesn't make Kent look good or make them look particularly attractive to coaching candidates at the same time. Hopefully the two sides settle before an appeal is filed.

Quote:The Bradley president isn't very well liked by many around Peoria. Most poaching schools just pay the buyout as a matter of course, and Bradley certainly had the endowment to do it. Her compensation is very high-- over $700k as I understand it, probably around 50th among private schools-- but she nickel and dimes both the departing coach (a former player at that) and Kent, and from what I hear may leave Geno on the hook for this judgment. I think Geno/Bradley had a case to get the amount lowered, and I wouldn't be surprised if they appeal it, but the prudent thing to do would be for Bradley to step in, pay them off and avoid the bad press.

My understanding is that Ford didn't as much leave with his middle finger in the air as Bradley prevented him from saying his goodbyes by posting the press release on its web site and inking the deal in order to stop him from going back to Kent for a possible counteroffer. In other words, it wasn't so much his fault and honest coaches can empathize. Also, Christian had a spat too didn't he? If I recall it was settled more quickly, and there was less at stake, but it was a little messy. I'll see if I can find the article. No I don't think non revenue sports would be impacted as much, with (obviously) less money at stake.

http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/bask...e-1.413544

Quote:KSU also recovered damages from Ford’s predecessor. When basketball coach Jim Christian left in 2008 for a similar job at Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, Kent State received about $350,000, according to news accounts.

(07-20-2013 09:30 AM)Max Power Wrote:  http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/bask...e-1.413544

Quote:KSU also recovered damages from Ford’s predecessor. When basketball coach Jim Christian left in 2008 for a similar job at Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, Kent State received about $350,000, according to news accounts.

Correct, except that JC left on relatively/comparatively good terms (i.e. did it openly), paid the buyout (or TCU did) and was welcomed back when he came back to the MACC last season with Ohio U. No lawsuit required for him to meet his obligations. Ford had some choices here, and he chose to do what he did. He was not an innocent victim. He has a tendency to burn bridges when he leaves. I'm sure he'll do the same at Bradley whether he succeeds or fails there.

(07-20-2013 09:25 AM)Max Power Wrote:  That's a completely dishonest misrepresentation of what I've been saying. I've been very clear Bradley looks bad and very critical of the BU administration in this thread.--

Quote:I agree it makes BU/Ford look bad, but it doesn't make Kent look good or make them look particularly attractive to coaching candidates at the same time. Hopefully the two sides settle before an appeal is filed.

Quote:The Bradley president isn't very well liked by many around Peoria. Most poaching schools just pay the buyout as a matter of course, and Bradley certainly had the endowment to do it. Her compensation is very high-- over $700k as I understand it, probably around 50th among private schools-- but she nickel and dimes both the departing coach (a former player at that) and Kent, and from what I hear may leave Geno on the hook for this judgment. I think Geno/Bradley had a case to get the amount lowered, and I wouldn't be surprised if they appeal it, but the prudent thing to do would be for Bradley to step in, pay them off and avoid the bad press.

My understanding is that Ford didn't as much leave with his middle finger in the air as Bradley prevented him from saying his goodbyes by posting the press release on its web site and inking the deal in order to stop him from going back to Kent for a possible counteroffer. In other words, it wasn't so much his fault and honest coaches can empathize. Also, Christian had a spat too didn't he? If I recall it was settled more quickly, and there was less at stake, but it was a little messy. I'll see if I can find the article. No I don't think non revenue sports would be impacted as much, with (obviously) less money at stake.

Frankly, your inconsistencies have made it very difficult for me to understand your position.

1. You contend that BU/Ford should have never let things progress to this extent, but go on at length about the strength of Ford's position and, by inference, the error of the court's finding.

2. You admit that Bradley has damaged relationships with the coach who proceeded Geno. Les was a BU player, alumni and coach who brought that remarkable Sweet 16 run but was still canned. You admit the difficult relationships the BU President has among some community and alumni. BU has only coaching change that I can recall where legal action was threatened or taken with the departure and signing. Yet, you claim KSU will suffer among the coaching community because its leaders chose not to join this circus and stand up for its contractual rights.

As axeme stated, coaches that are discouraged by enforcement of our contractual rights are coaches we don't want. Given FOUR examples of first choice candidates we've placed since Geno departed, you still claim that our reputation has been harmed. Yet, you can't cite a single example of how this has been the case.

3. Now, you claim Jim Christian left on bad terms and you'll find "articles" to prove this point. Good luck. Maybe you'll find the video where his wife and infant son attended the press conference to announce his departure, the day after J.C. left for TCU. Maybe you'll find the videos he made on behalf of our program while he was coach at TCU. Maybe you'll find the many articles on his return to KSU last year, about the warm welcome he received, and about how his in laws, locals to KSU, STILL attend our games. Yea, you find the articles about hard feelings in his departure. While you're at it, let us know who shot J.F.K.

4. Jim Christian left mid contract. He asked to be released from his contract and he was. This release triggered the liquidated damages clause in his contract, which he (or TCU) paid. Before J.C., there was a similar story when Stan Health left for Arkansas. Before that, there was a similar story when Gary Waters left for Rutgers. In Men's Basketball, we went through 4 coaches in 8 years. Four different coaches to four different institutions, but only one mess.

(07-20-2013 01:49 PM)FlashFan Wrote:  Frankly, your inconsistencies have made it very difficult for me to understand your position.

1. You contend that BU/Ford should have never let things progress to this extent, but go on at length about the strength of Ford's position and, by inference, the error of the court's finding.

That's called nuance, not inconsistency. I think it's a case that could have gone either way, and so risking legal fees and bad press in a fight you could very well lose was not prudent. Even if I believe the ruling is incorrect, the case is difficult to prove and it's being fought on Kent's home turf in Ohio state court.

Quote:2. You admit that Bradley has damaged relationships with the coach who proceeded Geno. Les was a BU player, alumni and coach who brought that remarkable Sweet 16 run but was still canned. You admit the difficult relationships the BU President has among some community and alumni. BU has only coaching change that I can recall where legal action was threatened or taken with the departure and signing. Yet, you claim KSU will suffer among the coaching community because its leaders chose not to join this circus and stand up for its contractual rights.

As axeme stated, coaches that are discouraged by enforcement of our contractual rights are coaches we don't want. Given FOUR examples of first choice candidates we've placed since Geno departed, you still claim that our reputation has been harmed. Yet, you can't cite a single example of how this has been the case.

Les brought a Sweet 16 but the following seasons went like this: NIT--> CBI --> CIT --> Nothing. The canning I don't have a problem with.

I don't see why the word "yet" is used in your last sentence. I think Bradley looks bad "yet" I think Kent looks bad? They can both look bad. That's possible. Why? Because both look litigious. Kent wouldn't settle for less than the full amount, which was quite large, so they very much "joined" the "circus" as you put it. While you see it as "standing up for its contractual rights" -- as may well be the case-- other ambitious coaches applying for jobs may be chilled by such aggressive pursuit of a former coach. Every coach sees himself climbing the ladder to be the next guy at Kentucky or Kansas, and doesn't want to be coughing up a million dollars on every rung.

And at least from what I gather, Geno was put in a tough spot. Could he have done things differently? Maybe, but it doesn't necessarily look like his actions were unreasonable. Kent gave him permission to interview with Bradley; Bradley and Geno (or, his agent) negotiated over the phone; he came to Peoria; Bradley offered a contract and told him he had to sign while in Peoria or they might move on; so he signed and Bradley posted and issued the press release immediately. They didn't let him break the news to his team first or go back to say his goodbyes. Axeme, if you were in Geno's shoes how would you have done it differently? Would you have called their bluff or passed up the chance to double your salary in order to "do the right thing?" Who among us would?

I think it's naive to say you don't want coaches discouraged by "enforcement of contractual rights." You want the best coach you can get (that stays clean). I still say some of them may be deterred by chasing a former coach to the ends of the earth for $1.2MM for taking a better offer.

Quote:3. Now, you claim Jim Christian left on bad terms and you'll find "articles" to prove this point. Good luck. Maybe you'll find the video where his wife and infant son attended the press conference to announce his departure, the day after J.C. left for TCU. Maybe you'll find the videos he made on behalf of our program while he was coach at TCU. Maybe you'll find the many articles on his return to KSU last year, about the warm welcome he received, and about how his in laws, locals to KSU, STILL attend our games. Yea, you find the articles about hard feelings in his departure. While you're at it, let us know who shot J.F.K.

4. Jim Christian left mid contract. He asked to be released from his contract and he was. This release triggered the liquidated damages clause in his contract, which he (or TCU) paid. Before J.C., there was a similar story when Stan Health left for Arkansas. Before that, there was a similar story when Gary Waters left for Rutgers. In Men's Basketball, we went through 4 coaches in 8 years. Four different coaches to four different institutions, but only one mess.

I wasn't clear on the Jim Christian departure and it seems like it isn't comparable. How many years were left on that contract? What was his salary and were the liquidated damages the same as his salary?

I've already explained why those other hires aren't apples to apples. And even if they were, it doesn't mean there weren't more qualified coaches who did shy away. Football had an Arkansas DC apply, but maybe they could have also had the Alabama DC, or South Carolina DC as well to pick from. So you see that doesn't disprove anything. I just said it might dissuade *some* candidates, not all. Bradley dissuaded candidates (Rob Jeter I mentioned as one) with how they treated Jim Les, but they still poached the MAC COY.

Anyone else hearing "I Got You Babe"?

http://www.hustlebelt.com/2013/7/22/4546...t-all-mean