(07-09-2013 02:40 PM)psualltheway5 Wrote:  I think it has. Not only are players leaving when they clearly aren't ready for the NBA, fans can't even keep up with the progress of a player nor will they know who is on their team next year. On the flip side, the NBA talent pool gets a lot worse with all of these raw players coming into the league who clearly aren't ready. My opinion is that if a player wants to declare right out of high school, they can. If they decide to go to college, there has to be a 3 year minimum.

I absolutely agree that it has ruined both college AND pro basketball. There is no longer any "star" power in college, and the NBA now resembles a development league outside of the top 5-6 teams . It may be by accident, but the NFL seems to understand that popular college football translates to popular pro football. I cannot understand why the NBA and MLB do not get that.

Can I agree and disagree at the same time?

I think mid majors are better because of the one and done simply because they are more likely to have upperclassmen. Without the one and done rule I doubt very much that the George Mason, VCU, or Butler runs of the past few years occur.

Then you have teams like Kentucky which were just beasts two years ago where the whole class just leaves. Kentucky should have been able to go on a great run, but instead they are one and done.

As fans we get to see great fundamental teams because of this, and we are also robbed of potential superstar teams. At the end of the day it is still a pleasure to watch Butler v Gonzaga. But Kentucky v Texas not so much.

Not sure where or who but someone suggested the baseball model for college hoops. Either commit to the D-League/NBA out of high school and forego your college eligibility, or stay through your junior year. That I think would fix both college and pro hoops.

(07-09-2013 04:03 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  

(07-09-2013 02:40 PM)psualltheway5 Wrote:  I think it has. Not only are players leaving when they clearly aren't ready for the NBA, fans can't even keep up with the progress of a player nor will they know who is on their team next year. On the flip side, the NBA talent pool gets a lot worse with all of these raw players coming into the league who clearly aren't ready. My opinion is that if a player wants to declare right out of high school, they can. If they decide to go to college, there has to be a 3 year minimum.

I absolutely agree that it has ruined both college AND pro basketball. There is no longer any "star" power in college, and the NBA now resembles a development league outside of the top 5-6 teams . It may be by accident, but the NFL seems to understand that popular college football translates to popular pro football. I cannot understand why the NBA and MLB do not get that.

Do you blame the guys who have "star" power from wanting to monetize that status, though? At best (say elite private universities), what is the "paycheck" a star college basketball player earns in a year (barring undisclosed gifts)? $100,000 in tuition, tutoring, room/board, athletic training/coaching? Awesome value for America's future teachers, accountants, and business managers. Not so great value for the guy where professional sport's league minimums are at least 4x that amount. If someone has star power, they are making much, much more.

(07-09-2013 04:03 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  

(07-09-2013 02:40 PM)psualltheway5 Wrote:  I think it has. Not only are players leaving when they clearly aren't ready for the NBA, fans can't even keep up with the progress of a player nor will they know who is on their team next year. On the flip side, the NBA talent pool gets a lot worse with all of these raw players coming into the league who clearly aren't ready. My opinion is that if a player wants to declare right out of high school, they can. If they decide to go to college, there has to be a 3 year minimum.

I absolutely agree that it has ruined both college AND pro basketball. There is no longer any "star" power in college, and the NBA now resembles a development league outside of the top 5-6 teams . It may be by accident, but the NFL seems to understand that popular college football translates to popular pro football. I cannot understand why the NBA and MLB do not get that.

I'd have to disagree about the NBA looking like a developmental league right now. The time when it looked like a developmental league was prior to the one-year rule being instituted and we were getting Kwame Brown(!) as the top pick in the draft. I think the NBA commissioner's office and owners fully understand that strong college basketball and more seasoned top draft picks with top name recognition help their product, but the NBA players union flat out wouldn't agree to anything more than the one-year rule (and that issue simply was far down the list of the CBA items compared to salary structures and the luxury tax).

MLB is quite different in that there is a grand total of TWO draft picks since 2000 that have gone directly to the majors and those were college draftees. You have to go back to 1978 to find a high school draftee that went directly to the majors. There is an expectation/need for baseball players to spend time in the minors even when they have played college ball, so it makes sense that a lot of organizations would rather get those prospects right out of high school when they're younger since they have to spend multiple years in the minors no matter what. In contrast, lottery picks in the NBA are expected to contribute at a high level immediately (and lower first round picks are expected to be at least rotation guys).

I don't agree. I think that the one and done's have ruined Pro Basketball, because most of the kids are not ready or were never pro material to begin with.

IMO the one and done has actually helped college basketball, because it has evened playing court for mid-major schools that have players who remained for the entire 4 years. We have now seen programs like George Mason, Butler, VCU, Witchita State, etc., make really deep runs in the NCAA's seemingly every year, rather than every once and a while; which is what we usually saw from mid-majors in years past. It seems like upper classmen and good coaching have made them even better in recent years.

(07-09-2013 04:32 PM)PirateMarv Wrote:  IMO the one and done has actually helped college basketball, because it has evened playing court for mid-major schools that have players who remained for the entire 4 years.

It helps those teams if the players stay. But mid-majors are not immune from losing players to the one-and-done rule. UNLV didn't want to lose Anthony Bennett (the first pick in this year's NBA draft) after one year. They would have had a much better team over the next couple of years, a team that could have gone deep in the NCAAs, if he stayed in Vegas two more years.

And because the NBA talent pool is thinner now (because the best players are raw and not developed), the cycle perpetuates itself and it becomes more likely that one-and-done will happen even to programs that are not as upper-crust as Kentucky or Kansas.

(07-09-2013 05:00 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(07-09-2013 04:32 PM)PirateMarv Wrote:  IMO the one and done has actually helped college basketball, because it has evened playing court for mid-major schools that have players who remained for the entire 4 years.

It helps those teams if the players stay. But mid-majors are not immune from losing players to the one-and-done rule. UNLV didn't want to lose Anthony Bennett (the first pick in this year's NBA draft) after one year. They would have had a much better team over the next couple of years, a team that could have gone deep in the NCAAs, if he stayed in Vegas two more years.

And because the NBA talent pool is thinner now (because the best players are raw and not developed), the cycle perpetuates itself and it becomes more likely that one-and-done will happen even to programs that are not as upper-crust as Kentucky or Kansas.

It does have more of a street ball kind of feel nowadays.

(07-09-2013 04:13 PM)sundodger Wrote:  Can I agree and disagree at the same time?

I think mid majors are better because of the one and done simply because they are more likely to have upperclassmen. Without the one and done rule I doubt very much that the George Mason, VCU, or Butler runs of the past few years occur.

Especially considering Butler advanced to the national title game again after losing their best player two years early to the NBA.

Quote:Then you have teams like Kentucky which were just beasts two years ago where the whole class just leaves. Kentucky should have been able to go on a great run, but instead they are one and done.

As fans we get to see great fundamental teams because of this, and we are also robbed of potential superstar teams. At the end of the day it is still a pleasure to watch Butler v Gonzaga. But Kentucky v Texas not so much.

Not sure where or who but someone suggested the baseball model for college hoops. Either commit to the D-League/NBA out of high school and forego your college eligibility, or stay through your junior year. That I think would fix both college and pro hoops.

I say two years, like the other guy.

(07-09-2013 03:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(07-09-2013 02:46 PM)uakronkid Wrote:  I wish they would implement the rule that the MLB uses. You either declare for the draft directly from high school, or you have to go to college for at least three years.

The MLB rule is the way the NBA should go as well.

Still, I would not go so far as to say that the current rule has "ruined" college hoops. IMO it's not even the thing most in need of fixing in the current college game. The first item on my list would be doing something about control-freak coaches who make their teams use the entire shot clock. The fix for that might be adopting the 24-second shot clock in college. They need to do something to increase the total number of possessions in a game.

Agree completely on the MLB draft format being superior. One and done is an issue the NCAA can't do a thing about because it is the NBA collective bargaining agreement. The deal had no basis in reality. Several studies have shown the straight from high school guys had a higher success rate in the NBA than players with three or four years of college and on average longer careers.

Shot clock doesn't worry me.

What I want is a fix for the regular season being of so little interest.

Move the start of the season back to January 2 and play longer into the spring.

Make the regular season more valuable by give the top 8 or top 12 or top 16 conferences based on the last three years of RPI a guaranteed slot in the tournament for the regular season champ. Announce at the start of the season that the regular season champ of say the Big XII is going to the Dallas sub-regional (seeding not guaranteed) or the Pac-12 champ is going to Seattle.

Really doesn't change much. Those regular season champs generally make the field any way but give them some added incentive to claim their slot and let their fans start planning the trip.

(07-09-2013 07:58 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Shot clock doesn't worry me.

What I want is a fix for the regular season being of so little interest.

Move the start of the season back to January 2 and play longer into the spring.

Make the regular season more valuable by give the top 8 or top 12 or top 16 conferences based on the last three years of RPI a guaranteed slot in the tournament for the regular season champ. Announce at the start of the season that the regular season champ of say the Big XII is going to the Dallas sub-regional (seeding not guaranteed) or the Pac-12 champ is going to Seattle.

Really doesn't change much. Those regular season champs generally make the field any way but give them some added incentive to claim their slot and let their fans start planning the trip.

You want to make the regular season more interesting? Institute a rule that you can't get an at large invitation to the NCAA tournament with a losing conference record, or if you're independent a sub-.500 record.

If my kid weren't so short and suck and dribbling to his left and were actually an NBA prospect I'd NEVER consider letting him go to college. If he's that good, I'd find an agent with experience putting guys in Europe. Can make more in a year there than in college and have some money in the bank if he gets hurt.

(07-09-2013 08:05 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If my kid weren't so short and suck and dribbling to his left and were actually an NBA prospect I'd NEVER consider letting him go to college. If he's that good, I'd find an agent with experience putting guys in Europe. Can make more in a year there than in college and have some money in the bank if he gets hurt.

I think an education is important. What if he becomes permanently hurt?

Has it hurt? Yes.

Although, considering there is no Minor League Pro Basketball here in the states one could argue that if you can go pro, you should.

Then again, all the quick fixes in the NBA seem to show up during the regular season. The NBA regular season is a bore. None of the teams really start caring till playoff time.

Yes it hurt, but it is just one of many things that have hurt the game.

The shot clock hurt the game because it killed the diversity of offensive styles that the game once employed. Now zone defenses are the norm instead of an option to combat a style of play.

The lack of enforcement of the actual rules has hurt the game. I'm sick of watching four and five step drives to the basket. And palming is seldom called no matter how flagrant the offense.

Hand checking is one thing but hacks across the arms and tugging on the jersey under the basket should be fouls in close just as they would be on the perimeter.

Obvious flops should be technical fouls on the flopper.

Television timeouts with the normal number of team timeouts drag games out way too long, especially in the last two minutes.

Yeah, I'm an old coot, but the beauty of the game has disappeared for me.

Team play and good sets are still fun to watch when they occur.

If I had something positive to say about the changes to the game it would be that I do like the 3 point shot. It helped to open the game back up naturally.

(07-09-2013 10:07 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(07-09-2013 08:05 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If my kid weren't so short and suck and dribbling to his left and were actually an NBA prospect I'd NEVER consider letting him go to college. If he's that good, I'd find an agent with experience putting guys in Europe. Can make more in a year there than in college and have some money in the bank if he gets hurt.

I think an education is important. What if he becomes permanently hurt?

If he's a potential one and done he will have 30 hours or so of college credit assuming he didn't lose a semester because of treatment of the injury and has to depend on the whims of the school to have a scholarship after the injury. If he goes to Europe as a player who is likely to be drafted in the first round he has had a year of traveling in a different country or countries and will have six or seven figures banked.

(07-09-2013 10:42 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Yes it hurt, but it is just one of many things that have hurt the game.

The shot clock hurt the game because it killed the diversity of offensive styles that the game once employed. Now zone defenses are the norm instead of an option to combat a style of play.

The lack of enforcement of the actual rules has hurt the game. I'm sick of watching four and five step drives to the basket. And palming is seldom called no matter how flagrant the offense.

Hand checking is one thing but hacks across the arms and tugging on the jersey under the basket should be fouls in close just as they would be on the perimeter.

Obvious flops should be technical fouls on the flopper.

Television timeouts with the normal number of team timeouts drag games out way too long, especially in the last two minutes.

Yeah, I'm an old coot, but the beauty of the game has disappeared for me.

Team play and good sets are still fun to watch when they occur.

If I had something positive to say about the changes to the game it would be that I do like the 3 point shot. It helped to open the game back up naturally.

Soccer has tried penalizing flopping and one of the first big applications of it a ref penalized a guy who was actually hurt and missed a couple games due to the injury.

My biggest rules beef is block/charge. The rules requiring both feet set makes it a tougher call for the official. Nothing irks me worse than seeing a defender backpedaling and get run over and whistled for a block when the offensive player caused the contact. Likewise a fast player with quick reactions and feet can pop in front of an offensive player to close an open lane where it is impossible for the offensive player to avoid contact and draw the foul. The defender for all intents and purpose initiated the rough contact but gets rewarded.

(07-09-2013 10:31 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  Has it hurt? Yes.

Although, considering there is no Minor League Pro Basketball here in the states one could argue that if you can go pro, you should.

Then again, all the quick fixes in the NBA seem to show up during the regular season. The NBA regular season is a bore. None of the teams really start caring till playoff time.

Bet I'm not the only one who enjoyed the strike shortened season with the more meaningful and intense regular season.

IMO the biggest problem college basketball has is and will continue to be the crooked AAU system.

(07-09-2013 10:42 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Yes it hurt, but it is just one of many things that have hurt the game.

The shot clock hurt the game because it killed the diversity of offensive styles that the game once employed. Now zone defenses are the norm instead of an option to combat a style of play.

The lack of enforcement of the actual rules has hurt the game. I'm sick of watching four and five step drives to the basket. And palming is seldom called no matter how flagrant the offense.

Hand checking is one thing but hacks across the arms and tugging on the jersey under the basket should be fouls in close just as they would be on the perimeter.

Obvious flops should be technical fouls on the flopper.

Television timeouts with the normal number of team timeouts drag games out way too long, especially in the last two minutes.

Yeah, I'm an old coot, but the beauty of the game has disappeared for me.

Team play and good sets are still fun to watch when they occur.

If I had something positive to say about the changes to the game it would be that I do like the 3 point shot. It helped to open the game back up naturally.

I couldn't have done this argument any better. Another "old coot" here that's pretty much given up on college basketball, along with the "one and done" problem. I can get interested during March Madness, but that's about it.

(07-09-2013 10:42 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Yes it hurt, but it is just one of many things that have hurt the game.

The shot clock hurt the game because it killed the diversity of offensive styles that the game once employed. Now zone defenses are the norm instead of an option to combat a style of play.

The lack of enforcement of the actual rules has hurt the game. I'm sick of watching four and five step drives to the basket. And palming is seldom called no matter how flagrant the offense.

Hand checking is one thing but hacks across the arms and tugging on the jersey under the basket should be fouls in close just as they would be on the perimeter.

Obvious flops should be technical fouls on the flopper.

Television timeouts with the normal number of team timeouts drag games out way too long, especially in the last two minutes.

Yeah, I'm an old coot, but the beauty of the game has disappeared for me.

Team play and good sets are still fun to watch when they occur.

If I had something positive to say about the changes to the game it would be that I do like the 3 point shot. It helped to open the game back up naturally.

Other than Syracuse who runs the zone predominantly? Louisville runs it sometimes. I think EMU runs it now with Murphy as head coach. Most of the time Syracuse gets ripped because they use the zone, even if they do it effectively.

Hardly any players take more than two steps and don't get whistled.

I agree that hand checking and other physical fouls need to be called more often.

I agree, flopping needs to be done away with. Coach K abuses the hell out of the fact that refs don't call it.

Definitely agree about TV timeouts. I find basketball games difficult to sit through. If you're at the game you're sitting by idly or trying to chat up those around you. If you're at home you have to sit through the same commercials. It's also annoying in football, but there's generally a lot more action in between the timeouts.