This is an usless thread. The power 5 don't want any of these schools, that is why they are where they are. Uconn and Cincy fans can fool themselves but they are not considered above the others. If they were someone would have grabbed them. All of the power 5 could grow by 2 to 6 and still have 16, none of them are interested in any of these programs. If they split they wont take anyone.

(06-11-2013 04:55 PM)goofus Wrote:  Well, some belong with the Power 5 and some don't

Belong
BYU
UNLV
New Mexico
Colorado State
Boise
Hawaii
San Diego State
UConn
Cincy
USF
UCF
Houston

Don't Belong
Utah State
San Jose State
Fresno State
Wyoming
Nevada
Air Force
Navy
SMU
Memphis
ECU
Tulane
Temple
Tulsa
IOWA

You forgot one in the don't belong group. I put them under Tulsa for you.

(06-11-2013 07:21 PM)goodknightfl Wrote:  This is an usless thread. The power 5 don't want any of these schools, that is why they are where they are. Uconn and Cincy fans can fool themselves but they are not considered above the others. If they were someone would have grabbed them. All of the power 5 could grow by 2 to 6 and still have 16, none of them are interested in any of these programs. If they split they wont take anyone.

Agree. If anything, they could leave some more behind.
IF they were wanted more schools, they'd already be in the P5 conferences.

(06-11-2013 04:39 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  In other news:

I should be a millionaire! I have much more in common with millionaires than I do with poor people.

(06-11-2013 07:10 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(06-11-2013 04:57 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  At this juncture, UCONN and BYU are similar to the P5. Everybody else has at least one of the following that is lacking enough to not put them in as peer with the rest of the P5:

1. Academics (Boise State, Fresno State, UNLV, San Diego State, Memphis come to mind quickly)
2. Revenue generation (Nevada, Utah State, San Jose State are all at or less than $20 mil annually. That doesn't cut it.)
3. Athletics success/facilities
4. Market/following
5. Duplication of an existing or exhausted market (mainly California, Texas, Florida, and North Carolina Go5 schools)

Okay this just shows you have some work to do. California is actually on a per population basis one of the most underserved markets in the US behind the Rocky mountain states for college football. The Central Valley/ Fresno area which is 3 hours from LA or SF has no BCS or Pro team and is equivalent in Population to the state of Oklahoma.

I agree that Fresno and SDSU are not tier 1 research University and for that you can thank the UC system which has lobbied to maintain an outdated education model that prohibits the Cal State System (the largest system in the US) form offering doctoral degrees. If college football thinks it is wise to completely disenfranchise the largest education system in the US that says more about the stupidity of college football than it does about the Cal State schools. With 480,000 current students and staff the Cal State System is slightly smaller than the state of Wyoming. If graduates are counted it is a huge population to be excluded.

You misunderstood. Cali has 4 P5 schools. How many more do you think tv networks will pay for at a price that meets or exceeds current revenue sharing numbers?

(06-11-2013 07:21 PM)goodknightfl Wrote:  This is an usless thread. The power 5 don't want any of these schools, that is why they are where they are. Uconn and Cincy fans can fool themselves but they are not considered above the others. If they were someone would have grabbed them. All of the power 5 could grow by 2 to 6 and still have 16, none of them are interested in any of these programs. If they split they wont take anyone.

That's right.

They may just carve up the B12 next time instead of the Big East.

Could Texas get a sweetheart deal from the ACC and roll as an independent?

(06-11-2013 07:10 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(06-11-2013 04:57 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  At this juncture, UCONN and BYU are similar to the P5. Everybody else has at least one of the following that is lacking enough to not put them in as peer with the rest of the P5:

1. Academics (Boise State, Fresno State, UNLV, San Diego State, Memphis come to mind quickly)
2. Revenue generation (Nevada, Utah State, San Jose State are all at or less than $20 mil annually. That doesn't cut it.)
3. Athletics success/facilities
4. Market/following
5. Duplication of an existing or exhausted market (mainly California, Texas, Florida, and North Carolina Go5 schools)

Okay this just shows you have some work to do. California is actually on a per population basis one of the most underserved markets in the US behind the Rocky mountain states for college football. The Central Valley/ Fresno area which is 3 hours from LA or SF has no BCS or Pro team and is equivalent in Population to the state of Oklahoma.

I agree that Fresno and SDSU are not tier 1 research University and for that you can thank the UC system which has lobbied to maintain an outdated education model that prohibits the Cal State System (the largest system in the US) form offering doctoral degrees. If college football thinks it is wise to completely disenfranchise the largest education system in the US that says more about the stupidity of college football than it does about the Cal State schools. With 480,000 current students and staff the Cal State System is slightly smaller than the state of Wyoming. If graduates are counted it is a huge population to be excluded.

College football is stupid, or at the very least, dysfunctional. I don't know how anyone could dispute that.

I think the AAC, MAC, SBC, CUSA, MWC would have more to gain actually by staying with the other Division 1 schools than leaving to join up with the P5.

1) They could cut football scholarships down to 75 and lower Title IX costs. Perhaps cut a women's sport or two.

2) Overall ability to compete for a Division 1 championship in any sport would increase with the P5 no longer participating in D1.

3) In a D1 subdivision with football conferences like the Big Sky and CAA would allow for alignments that make more sense. For instance Idaho could find a home in the Big Sky instead of being forced into the Sun Belt.

4) The NCAA Division 1 Men's basketball tournament would be more competitive without the likes of the B1G, ACC, SEC, PAC, B12. There are plenty of name basketball conferences left in the mix that people would be interested in watching.

Big East
American Athletic
Mountain West
Missouri Valley
Atlantic Ten
West Coast
Mid American
Sun Belt
Conference USA
Horizon

The P5 leaving is not going to be able to torpedo the D1 Men's Basketball tournament.

(06-11-2013 10:26 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I think the AAC, MAC, SBC, CUSA, MWC would have more to gain actually by staying with the other Division 1 schools than leaving to join up with the P5.

1) They could cut football scholarships down to 75 and lower Title IX costs. Perhaps cut a women's sport or two.

2) Overall ability to compete for a Division 1 championship in any sport would increase with the P5 no longer participating in D1.

3) In a D1 subdivision with football conferences like the Big Sky and CAA would allow for alignments that make more sense. For instance Idaho could find a home in the Big Sky instead of being forced into the Sun Belt.

4) The NCAA Division 1 Men's basketball tournament would be more competitive without the likes of the B1G, ACC, SEC, PAC, B12. There are plenty of name basketball conferences left in the mix that people would be interested in watching.

Big East
American Athletic
Mountain West
Missouri Valley
Atlantic Ten
West Coast
Mid American
Sun Belt
Conference USA
Horizon

The P5 leaving is not going to be able to torpedo the D1 Men's Basketball tournament.

I just barfed in my mouth. I would kill myself if that actually happened.

This is a repost here but the push to breakaway is completely driven by voting. Voting now is completely out of balance.

NCAA voting #'s
B12 (3 votes)
B1G (3 votes)
CUSA (3 votes)
ACC (3 votes)
PAC (3 votes)
SEC (3 votes)
BE (3 votes)
WAC (1.5 votes)
MWC (1.5 votes)
MAC (1.5 votes)
SBC (1.5 votes)
Everyone Else (21 conferences, 1 vote a piece)

It was designed to give the majority voting power to the FBS conferences so they follow lock in step over any of the football issues. This format was forced upon D1 in 1997 when the power conferences last threatened to leave the NCAA.

The issue is the Big East and WAC no longer sponsor football yet they retain the votes. Further CUSA retains 3 votes like a power conference yet is comprised mostly of former SBC schools. At the time the votes were given to CUSA they were much closer in strength to being a power conference, especially in basketball where it was a 4-5 bid league.

Before the votes were 27-20 in favor of the football conferences but now the votes are 22.5-25.5 against FBS and if you are looking at P5 vs. everyone else on controversial matters such as the the player stipend the voting is even more lopsided, 15-33 against the P5.

There is no way to rebalance the votes....they became balanced toward the FBS conferences before under threat of breakaway. Now the NCAA has another 75-80 D1 schools to work with and the Big East and CUSA on its side which wasn't the case before.

(06-11-2013 04:39 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  In other news:

I should be a millionaire! I have much more in common with millionaires than I do with poor people.

Best ever!

(06-11-2013 09:47 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  

(06-11-2013 07:10 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(06-11-2013 04:57 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  At this juncture, UCONN and BYU are similar to the P5. Everybody else has at least one of the following that is lacking enough to not put them in as peer with the rest of the P5:

1. Academics (Boise State, Fresno State, UNLV, San Diego State, Memphis come to mind quickly)
2. Revenue generation (Nevada, Utah State, San Jose State are all at or less than $20 mil annually. That doesn't cut it.)
3. Athletics success/facilities
4. Market/following
5. Duplication of an existing or exhausted market (mainly California, Texas, Florida, and North Carolina Go5 schools)

Okay this just shows you have some work to do. California is actually on a per population basis one of the most underserved markets in the US behind the Rocky mountain states for college football. The Central Valley/ Fresno area which is 3 hours from LA or SF has no BCS or Pro team and is equivalent in Population to the state of Oklahoma.

I agree that Fresno and SDSU are not tier 1 research University and for that you can thank the UC system which has lobbied to maintain an outdated education model that prohibits the Cal State System (the largest system in the US) form offering doctoral degrees. If college football thinks it is wise to completely disenfranchise the largest education system in the US that says more about the stupidity of college football than it does about the Cal State schools. With 480,000 current students and staff the Cal State System is slightly smaller than the state of Wyoming. If graduates are counted it is a huge population to be excluded.

You misunderstood. Cali has 4 P5 schools. How many more do you think tv networks will pay for at a price that meets or exceeds current revenue sharing numbers?

Look at the logic of your statement. California has a huge population and the 4 schools are in 2 major cities a long way from other areas. You clearly show you don't understand California. Your analogy is like saying Oklahoma doesn't make sense because Texas has a team in Dallas. It is equivalent both in terms of population and distance.

Their may very well be other reasons to keep out the Cal States and I am not saying they belong or not but your reason is just plain east coast ignorance of anything past the Mississippi. Pull your head out and understand something about geography in the rest of the country.

Let me put it this way, California has 3.5x the population and 2x the land mass of Tennessee and Kentucky combined. Based on your ratio calculations Kentucky and Tennessee should have at most 2 teams. I propose we kick Kentucky out of the gang of 5 since they never do anything in football anyway and their market is pointless.

"The P5 leaving is not going to be able to torpedo the D1 Men's Basketball tournament."

First of all, the Catholic Big East would in all likelihood be chosen to come along and second, even with programs like Memphis, UConn, Gonzaga, Wichita State, UNLV, New Mexico, San Diego State and even Houston and San Francisco that all have solid programs and/or solid history, they'd be relegated to more of a minor league status than they already are now. The big name programs with most fans and history would be gone. 80-90% of all national championships and even more Final Four appearances. The schools that produce the most pro players, etc... Without them, college basketball and even athletics goes back to being what it originally was intended to be at the colleges not in the fray: an extra-curricular activity that's a minor part of campus life. Casual fans will jump ship immediately.

Part of the fun now is the hope of competing with Big Boys. It's an uphill climb for all outsiders right now but is a legit dream for many but impossible if they break away from the NCAA.

(06-12-2013 12:09 AM)Caltex2 Wrote:  "The P5 leaving is not going to be able to torpedo the D1 Men's Basketball tournament."

First of all, the Catholic Big East would in all likelihood be chosen to come along and second, even with programs like Memphis, UConn, Gonzaga, Wichita State, UNLV, New Mexico, San Diego State and even Houston and San Francisco that all have solid programs and/or solid history, they'd be relegated to more of a minor league status than they already are now. The big name programs with most fans and history would be gone. 80-90% of all national championships and even more Final Four appearances. The schools that produce the most pro players, etc... Without them, college basketball and even athletics goes back to being what it originally was intended to be at the colleges not in the fray: an extra-curricular activity that's a minor part of campus life. Casual fans will jump ship immediately.

Part of the fun now is the hope of competing with Big Boys. It's an uphill climb for all outsiders right now be is a legit dream for many but impossible if they break away from the NCAA.

I don't see how the Big East finds its way into the new Super Division and the AAC doesn't.

Take a look at the budgets across the AAC and compare it to the Big East. If a split is about money the AAC will be coming first.

(06-11-2013 09:47 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  You misunderstood. Cali has 4 P5 schools. How many more do you think tv networks will pay for at a price that meets or exceeds current revenue sharing numbers?

If the networks wanted to pay over $20 million/year each for 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th California programs, they could pay the MWC, who already has those teams.

So the marketplace will decide. Ask the question again when the MWC's TV contract expires. If that new contract sparks a major bidding war and the MWC ends up with more money than the Pac, then the answer will be yes, the TV guys have an unlimited appetite for California college football at top-dollar prices.

(06-12-2013 12:27 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(06-11-2013 09:47 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  You misunderstood. Cali has 4 P5 schools. How many more do you think tv networks will pay for at a price that meets or exceeds current revenue sharing numbers?

If the networks wanted to pay over $20 million/year each for 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th California programs, they could pay the MWC, who already has those teams.

So the marketplace will decide. Ask the question again when the MWC's TV contract expires. If that new contract sparks a major bidding war and the MWC ends up with more money than the Pac, then the answer will be yes, the TV guys have an unlimited appetite for California college football at top-dollar prices.

Nice logic except the MWC only has 3 California teams and the MWC also has the populations wastelands of Wyoming, Nevada and New Mexico.

A better measure would be what would TV pay the Big 12 to add California with 2 or 3 Cal State schools. Not that it would happen but that would be the appropriate measure.

If the Mountain West and American are coming with a new division 1 subdivision, I'm not sure I see the point in a new division to begin with. The votes so far have been against allowing the school to have full cost scholarships. The threat of the power 5 leaving will probably be enough for them to get what they want. If that includes a new subdivision within division 1, it will probably a) only be the power 5, b) only be for football, c) only be for rules; teams from current FBS would still play the new subdivision and probably share the same bowl/playoff structure.

In the event that the power 5 formally leave the NCAA, then they probably will be taking most of division 1 with them, but making sure the set-up allows for the rules they want.

(06-12-2013 12:34 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(06-12-2013 12:27 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(06-11-2013 09:47 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  You misunderstood. Cali has 4 P5 schools. How many more do you think tv networks will pay for at a price that meets or exceeds current revenue sharing numbers?

If the networks wanted to pay over $20 million/year each for 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th California programs, they could pay the MWC, who already has those teams.

So the marketplace will decide. Ask the question again when the MWC's TV contract expires. If that new contract sparks a major bidding war and the MWC ends up with more money than the Pac, then the answer will be yes, the TV guys have an unlimited appetite for California college football at top-dollar prices.

Nice logic except the MWC only has 3 California teams and the MWC also has the populations wastelands of Wyoming, Nevada and New Mexico.

A better measure would be what would TV pay the Big 12 to add California with 2 or 3 Cal State schools. Not that it would happen but that would be the appropriate measure.

UNLV isn't in a population wasteland, but I guess you could just replace Nevada with Idaho in your argument there.

The Big 12 was down to 8 members and needed teams less than two years ago. I'm sure they asked ESPN and Fox who would be worth the most money to add, and they asked how much ESPN/Fox would pay for 10 teams and how much more (if any) they would pay for 12, and I'm sure they asked about anyone on a long list of available schools including MWC schools.

Unfortunately for us there are no transcripts of those conversations, if there were that would be enough to keep this board going for several years.

But we know what the Big 12 ended up doing then, and we know that the Big 12 commissioner and others keep saying they'll only expand from 10 to 12 if the TV guys are willing to pay for each new school at the same per-school rate the Big 12 gets now, or more. That's what they care about.

(06-12-2013 12:38 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  In the event that the power 5 formally leave the NCAA, then they probably will be taking most of division 1 with them, but making sure the set-up allows for the rules they want.

This is where I see things potentially going:

P5 (ACC, B12, B1G, SEC, PAC)
G5 (MAC, AAC, MWC, CUSA, SBC)
BB (BE, A10, MVC, WCC, BW, Horizon)

A new D1 with 16 conferences and 192 total schools. Each P5 league would get 3 votes in the new system while everyone else gets 1 vote. In this way the P5 can out vote the remaining schools 15-10 on all issues if it wanted including the stipends.

The BB only leagues would help in travel and olympic sports plus give options for schools that want to be independent for football BYU (WCC) and Hawaii (Big West).

With the requirement in place that a lower division school has to be invited by a higher division conference there shouldn't be to much movement or potential for new conferences forming. D1 was never intended to be 351 schools large, it just got way too big.

(06-11-2013 10:04 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  That's right.

They may just carve up the B12 next time instead of the Big East.

Could Texas get a sweetheart deal from the ACC and roll as an independent?

Sure. Especially if ND is still a partial member (which is almost certain).