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Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
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CrazyCajun Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-24-2013 09:54 AM)warhawk09 Wrote:  
(05-23-2013 10:36 PM)CrazyCajun Wrote:  
(05-23-2013 09:54 PM)CatMom Wrote:  This is what the SLC used. I happen to like it.
Round Robin; basically if you lose 1 game you chances are gone.

2 yrs ago we lost out first game and ended up having to buckle down and the guys had to play 5 games but we won the tourney from the losers bracket. Had to speculate who was going to pitch that last game. Our closer did and pitched a 9 inning shut-out (hadn't started a game since HS). Found that not only extremely tense but exciting. (Thats closer is now in the ChiSox farm system)

I don't like it at all, its bad for teams that have done well during the regular season and hurts your top teams RPI's coming out of the conference tournament for NCAA seeding. Its not good for the conference either.

This couldn't be wrong. It helps teams who did well in the regular season, tiebreakers go to the higher seed. It helps team who will make regionals because their pitching will not be worn out in a ridiculous double-elimination format.

That's your view Bob, but I spoke to several coaches at the regional and they would like to see single elimination like the SEC. And I didn't say anything about pitching, that is a secondary concern.
05-24-2013 10:11 AM
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warhawk09 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-24-2013 10:11 AM)CrazyCajun Wrote:  
(05-24-2013 09:54 AM)warhawk09 Wrote:  
(05-23-2013 10:36 PM)CrazyCajun Wrote:  
(05-23-2013 09:54 PM)CatMom Wrote:  This is what the SLC used. I happen to like it.
Round Robin; basically if you lose 1 game you chances are gone.

2 yrs ago we lost out first game and ended up having to buckle down and the guys had to play 5 games but we won the tourney from the losers bracket. Had to speculate who was going to pitch that last game. Our closer did and pitched a 9 inning shut-out (hadn't started a game since HS). Found that not only extremely tense but exciting. (Thats closer is now in the ChiSox farm system)

I don't like it at all, its bad for teams that have done well during the regular season and hurts your top teams RPI's coming out of the conference tournament for NCAA seeding. Its not good for the conference either.

This couldn't be wrong. It helps teams who did well in the regular season, tiebreakers go to the higher seed. It helps team who will make regionals because their pitching will not be worn out in a ridiculous double-elimination format.

That's your view Bob, but I spoke to several coaches at the regional and they would like to see single elimination like the SEC. And I didn't say anything about pitching, that is a secondary concern.

Sure single elimination would fix everything too, and pitching is a primary concern.
05-24-2013 10:11 AM
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asumike83 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
This is how I understand the SEC format: 12 teams in. Top 4 get a bye, bottom 8 face off in single elimination play-in games. That narrows the field to 8 and they play a double-elimination tournament.
05-24-2013 10:23 AM
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CrazyCajun Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-24-2013 09:55 AM)warhawk09 Wrote:  
(05-23-2013 11:36 PM)CrazyCajun Wrote:  
(05-23-2013 10:50 PM)GaSoEagle Wrote:  For a team who really has to win the tourney to go to regionals you make a good point. For teams who are close to a regional team 3 guaranteed games would give them maybe enough wins to get to a regional.

For teams that are pretty much guaranteed a regional, playing teams with poor RPI's just damages their NCAA resumes and in the long run hurts the conferences opportunities for a higher seed.

Troy played Arkansas State once already and maybe twice ... ULL played FIU once and maybe twice. You're off on this one.

In fact, in round robin the No. 1 seed is guaranteed games against the No. 4, No. 5 and No. 8 plus the winner of the other pool. Now, with double elimination, the No. 1 could play No. 8 twice and No. 4 and skip a game against No. 5 whose RPI is higher than No. 8. So again, NO!

What? And this case Troy #29 is gauranteed games against FAU #33, WKU #104 and ASU #148. A loss against FAU does not damage their RPI, but are you saying a loss to either WKU or FAU does not? Look, in either case having to play lower seeds with poor RPI's does not help your resume and if eliminated by a team with a #148 RPI, exactly how does that help your conference? It doesn't, even you can see that!
05-24-2013 10:29 AM
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warhawk09 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
That's not what I'm saying at all; what I'm saying in round robin you play those teams once. In DE format, Troy could end up playing ASU three times and ULL could end up playing FIU three times.
05-24-2013 10:33 AM
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CrazyCajun Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-24-2013 10:33 AM)warhawk09 Wrote:  That's not what I'm saying at all; what I'm saying in round robin you play those teams once. In DE format, Troy could end up playing ASU three times and ULL could end up playing FIU three times.

Okay, but that wasn't my point! I don't care for either format, nor did I bring up pitching. I agree with several of the coaches and single elimination.
05-24-2013 11:15 AM
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TheMoody1 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
I was told that the ACC is going back to double elimination next year.
05-26-2013 04:17 PM
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GATA Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-26-2013 04:17 PM)TheMoody1 Wrote:  I was told that the ACC is going back to double elimination next year.

ACC will be double elimination next year. It was mentioned during their championship game
05-26-2013 05:11 PM
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chiefsfan Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-24-2013 10:23 AM)asumike83 Wrote:  This is how I understand the SEC format: 12 teams in. Top 4 get a bye, bottom 8 face off in single elimination play-in games. That narrows the field to 8 and they play a double-elimination tournament.

The SEC format is a mess, but it does help them. The SEC Tourney outdraws everybody in the world in attendance partially because every game is important. Round Robin would never work.

Because they get 8-9 teams in the tourney every year, they can basically play single elimination, and not get a single complaint out of coaches because they are likely NCAA bound anyway.

I like 8 teams double elimination. I think its the safest format to use for now.
05-26-2013 06:07 PM
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chiefsfan Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
One thing I would do to the format, is I would eliminate the idea of having 2 4 team brackets. Mix the brackets together. This way it is impossible to play a team more than twice in the tourney

The way you do that is to make the losers bracket winner of the first group of 4 play the winners bracket champ of the 2nd group of 4. You could potentially play a team twice, but never three times, which generally helps save some of the RPI mess.
05-26-2013 06:18 PM
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FoUTASportscaster Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
I like that idea, but I have also wondered about not having a tourney at all. I can't speak for the SBC, but I know in the SLC, it almost always caused more problems than helped.

Because baseball is so different than any other sport, the number one seed almost never won it and seemed to always lose within the first three games. That hurts them and the conference. If the top team can't get in then no one else will. This year, their seventh seed won it, whereas Sam has a very outside shot at a second consecutive at-large.

I wouldn't mind seeing a six team bracket where the top two seeds are automatically in the winners bracket. This would shield the top teams from the lower seed's ace. Great example. TAMU-CC was the eighth seed that barely squeaked in the tournament. They fielded the pitcher of the year who was a league leader in wins and ERA. They won a lot of low scoring games with him on the mound and lost almost every other game. So they rewarded them for being the best team in the regular season with the pitcher of the year? If it has to be 8 teams, there are ways to do byes for the top teams.
05-26-2013 07:43 PM
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chiefsfan Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-26-2013 07:43 PM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  I like that idea, but I have also wondered about not having a tourney at all. I can't speak for the SBC, but I know in the SLC, it almost always caused more problems than helped.

Because baseball is so different than any other sport, the number one seed almost never won it and seemed to always lose within the first three games. That hurts them and the conference. If the top team can't get in then no one else will. This year, their seventh seed won it, whereas Sam has a very outside shot at a second consecutive at-large.

I wouldn't mind seeing a six team bracket where the top two seeds are automatically in the winners bracket. This would shield the top teams from the lower seed's ace. Great example. TAMU-CC was the eighth seed that barely squeaked in the tournament. They fielded the pitcher of the year who was a league leader in wins and ERA. They won a lot of low scoring games with him on the mound and lost almost every other game. So they rewarded them for being the best team in the regular season with the pitcher of the year? If it has to be 8 teams, there are ways to do byes for the top teams.

That same scenario exists in the NCAA tourney as well. Stanford is a bubble team for the NCAA tournament this year, but can you imagine being a 2 seed and having to face Mark Appel? He is a one way trip to the Losers Bracket for a lot of teams.
05-26-2013 08:21 PM
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CatMom Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-26-2013 06:18 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  One thing I would do to the format, is I would eliminate the idea of having 2 4 team brackets. Mix the brackets together. This way it is impossible to play a team more than twice in the tourney

The way you do that is to make the losers bracket winner of the first group of 4 play the winners bracket champ of the 2nd group of 4. You could potentially play a team twice, but never three times, which generally helps save some of the RPI mess.

DE doesn't have pools, it's all one bracket. It's kind of hard for anyone to play a team 3 times in a DE tourney.

1 vs 8
2 vs 7
3 vs 6
4 vs 5

for argumants sake all the top seeds win and sit out
losers bracket
5 vs 7
6 vs 8
5 & 6 win, 7 & 8 go home

winners bracket
1 vs 4
2 vs 3

1 & 2 win, 3 & 4 now losers bracket and play 5 & 6

3 vs 5
4 vs 6

all top seeds still win (as a scenario) so 4 teams are now left. No one has played anyone even twice yet but you are down to 4 teams.

1 vs 3
2 vs 4
and 3 & 4 already have 1 loss

3 beats 1
2 beats 4
4 goes home. 2 is in the championship game and 1 plays 3 again as losers bracket. Loser goes home.
1 wins and plays 2. They haven't played yet and will only play 2 games if 2 wins the first game on championship day. Even if 1 & 2 won the "semis", they both go into a 2 game championship without having met.

It's an example of how we played DE tourney's. Not sure I ever attended one where 2 teams ever played another team 3 times. It just doesn't work. Two teams can't come out unscathed so someone always has a loss going into the actual CG.
(This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 08:46 PM by CatMom.)
05-26-2013 08:42 PM
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USACoN2012 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
The SBC Tournament had 2 4 team brackets. Both bracket winners came out without a loss, but if an *if necessary game would have taken place between USA and ULL, it would have been the third between the two teams.
05-26-2013 08:45 PM
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USACoN2012 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-26-2013 06:18 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  One thing I would do to the format, is I would eliminate the idea of having 2 4 team brackets. Mix the brackets together. This way it is impossible to play a team more than twice in the tourney

The way you do that is to make the losers bracket winner of the first group of 4 play the winners bracket champ of the 2nd group of 4. You could potentially play a team twice, but never three times, which generally helps save some of the RPI mess.

The softball tournament does this.
05-26-2013 08:46 PM
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chiefsfan Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-26-2013 08:42 PM)CatMom Wrote:  
(05-26-2013 06:18 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  One thing I would do to the format, is I would eliminate the idea of having 2 4 team brackets. Mix the brackets together. This way it is impossible to play a team more than twice in the tourney

The way you do that is to make the losers bracket winner of the first group of 4 play the winners bracket champ of the 2nd group of 4. You could potentially play a team twice, but never three times, which generally helps save some of the RPI mess.

DE doesn't have pools, it's all one bracket. It's kind of hard for anyone to play a team 3 times in a DE tourney.

1 vs 8
2 vs 7
3 vs 6
4 vs 5

for argumants sake all the top seeds win and sit out
losers bracket
5 vs 7
6 vs 8
5 & 6 win, 7 & 8 go home

winners bracket
1 vs 4
2 vs 3

1 & 2 win, 3 & 4 now losers bracket and play 5 & 6

3 vs 5
4 vs 6

all top seeds still win (as a scenario) so 4 teams are now left. No one has played anyone even twice yet but you are down to 4 teams.

1 vs 3
2 vs 4
and 3 & 4 already have 1 loss

3 beats 1
2 beats 4
4 goes home. 2 is in the championship game and 1 plays 3 again as losers bracket. Loser goes home.
1 wins and plays 2. They haven't played yet and will only play 2 games if 2 wins the first game on championship day. Even if 1 & 2 won the "semis", they both go into a 2 game championship without having met.

It's an example of how we played DE tourney's. Not sure I ever attended one where 2 teams ever played another team 3 times. It just doesn't work. Two teams can't come out unscathed so someone always has a loss going into the actual CG.

SBC Tourney is formatted like the CWS bracket.
05-26-2013 08:48 PM
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CatMom Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
(05-26-2013 08:45 PM)USACoN2012 Wrote:  The SBC Tournament had 2 4 team brackets. Both bracket winners came out without a loss, but if an *if necessary game would have taken place between USA and ULL, it would have been the third between the two teams.

Then it seems to be a hybrid of the 2 versions
05-26-2013 08:48 PM
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GaSoEagle Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
It is harder to do in baseball than in basketball but I would be in favor or whatever could be done to help the top 2 teams in the conference. If a total round robin is played during the regular season with everyone playing everyone, I don't see any problem is rewarding the top 2 seeds.

As I understand it the basketball tourney is going to do something like that. If a way to do the same sort of thing in baseball could be worked out I think it is a good idea.
05-26-2013 08:50 PM
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CatMom Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Round Robin setup for baseball tourney?
And I mispoke, a bit.
The SLC went to this hybrid this year and TXST did play one team 3 times in 2011. How that happened, I don't recall and it was an anomaly.
Old brain, I guess. (and it was hot as Hades that year)


I agree the top teams should get better treatment for playing great ball for 53-56 games. I still think round robin sucks, though.
05-26-2013 08:56 PM
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