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Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-06-2013 11:43 AM)Theodoresdaddy Wrote:  they belong to the NCAA because they chose to belong

if they don't like the rules put forth, they're free to leave

no one is making them stay in the NCAA and since they're a member, they're choosing to follow the rules put forth by the member schools
But the NCAA is close enough to a monopoly cartel of conferences for access to media contracts for the common free association rule of "if you don't like it, join another association or form one of your own" to not apply to the NCAA.

That's why they have to meet a higher standard of being able to show that the rules they put in place are reasonable.
04-06-2013 12:51 PM
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Ned Low Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-05-2013 02:30 PM)indydoug Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 02:00 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Liberty may be a bunch of religious nut cases but if they add value in football to the Sun Belt, those nut cases will be overlooked.

Just curious, but in your way of thinking, isn't the term "religious nut cases" redundant, or can one be "religious" without being a "nut case"?

Reason? On this board? Really? You know that reason does not apply on these boards; people are only capable of making absurdly ignorant comments aimed at those they do not agree with no forethought given to how stupid those comments make them look.
04-06-2013 01:10 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-06-2013 11:43 AM)Theodoresdaddy Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 06:59 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  All the non-lawyers need to stop pontificating about discrimination suits. Liberty could well file an antitrust suit that the rules a restraint of trade, and I could make strong arguments either way. It's hard to predict how that case would come out, but it has absolutely zero to do with a religious exercise case or discrimination or anything similar.

they belong to the NCAA because they chose to belong

if they don't like the rules put forth, they're free to leave

no one is making them stay in the NCAA and since they're a member, they're choosing to follow the rules put forth by the member schools

There is at least one court decision where the judge rejected that argument by the NCAA saying there is no adequate substitute entity.
04-06-2013 02:04 PM
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Sultan of Euphonistan Online
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Post: #44
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-06-2013 02:04 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(04-06-2013 11:43 AM)Theodoresdaddy Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 06:59 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  All the non-lawyers need to stop pontificating about discrimination suits. Liberty could well file an antitrust suit that the rules a restraint of trade, and I could make strong arguments either way. It's hard to predict how that case would come out, but it has absolutely zero to do with a religious exercise case or discrimination or anything similar.

they belong to the NCAA because they chose to belong

if they don't like the rules put forth, they're free to leave

no one is making them stay in the NCAA and since they're a member, they're choosing to follow the rules put forth by the member schools

There is at least one court decision where the judge rejected that argument by the NCAA saying there is no adequate substitute entity.

Of course the reason for that is that all the "important" schools are in the NCAA and if they decided to break up the NCAA then all those institutions would just take their ball and make another group and be even more exclusive and could allow all the rest of the schools to be in what really was the NCAA.

Honestly I think a school like Liberty is risking making things worse for itself rather than better with going through such an act which may be why you don't see it. Heck the more you apply the free market to college sports the WORSE it gets for schools like Liberty and the better it gets for the big schools. The non big conferences and schools are not worth much.
04-06-2013 05:51 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-06-2013 05:51 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  
(04-06-2013 02:04 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(04-06-2013 11:43 AM)Theodoresdaddy Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 06:59 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  All the non-lawyers need to stop pontificating about discrimination suits. Liberty could well file an antitrust suit that the rules a restraint of trade, and I could make strong arguments either way. It's hard to predict how that case would come out, but it has absolutely zero to do with a religious exercise case or discrimination or anything similar.

they belong to the NCAA because they chose to belong

if they don't like the rules put forth, they're free to leave

no one is making them stay in the NCAA and since they're a member, they're choosing to follow the rules put forth by the member schools

There is at least one court decision where the judge rejected that argument by the NCAA saying there is no adequate substitute entity.

Of course the reason for that is that all the "important" schools are in the NCAA and if they decided to break up the NCAA then all those institutions would just take their ball and make another group and be even more exclusive and could allow all the rest of the schools to be in what really was the NCAA.

Honestly I think a school like Liberty is risking making things worse for itself rather than better with going through such an act which may be why you don't see it. Heck the more you apply the free market to college sports the WORSE it gets for schools like Liberty and the better it gets for the big schools. The non big conferences and schools are not worth much.

Taking their ball and leaving carries anti-trust risk. About 15 years ago there was some thought that an 8 team playoff might get approved. One of the concerns was that it was start a gold rush like happened in basketball with a lot of move-ups there was some toying with the idea of breaking away then, one of the problems was figuring out how to breakaway and limit access without running afoul of anti-trust.
04-06-2013 10:45 PM
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AtlanticLeague Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
Isn't liberty mostly online?
04-06-2013 11:08 PM
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Theodoresdaddy Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-06-2013 11:08 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Isn't liberty mostly online?

12K are on campus as opposed to 60K+ who take on-line classes

so the answer to your question is yes
04-07-2013 10:02 AM
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utpotts Online
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Post: #48
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-07-2013 10:02 AM)Theodoresdaddy Wrote:  
(04-06-2013 11:08 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Isn't liberty mostly online?

12K are on campus as opposed to 60K+ who take on-line classes

so the answer to your question is yes

So when will the University of Phoenix want to apart of FBS football?? LOL
04-07-2013 11:27 AM
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GreenMississippi Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-07-2013 11:27 AM)utpotts Wrote:  
(04-07-2013 10:02 AM)Theodoresdaddy Wrote:  
(04-06-2013 11:08 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  Isn't liberty mostly online?

12K are on campus as opposed to 60K+ who take on-line classes

so the answer to your question is yes

So when will the University of Phoenix want to apart of FBS football?? LOL

See: Grand Canyon University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyo...#Athletics
04-07-2013 12:10 PM
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Dukes09 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
liberty is just as "shut out" of the fbs as the approximately 120 other fcs level programs that would probably prefer to be fbs if they could just flip a switch. the fact is, you must be invited by a current fbs conference, and no conference is willing to extend liberty an invite at this time.
04-07-2013 03:31 PM
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Dukes09 Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-05-2013 02:13 PM)jmufan Wrote:  Personally I fail to see how the NCAA can keep a school down a level.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

i agree, especially when there are roughly 13 fbs teams that are questionable as to whether they should be fbs or not.
04-07-2013 03:36 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
IMO all these FCS schools upgrading their programs to FBS, or wishing to, will eventually be right back where they started. I've long been of the opinion that there will be a major reorganization of who is a top level football program, and who isn't. Whether the NCAA is a part of the equation has yet to be determined...
04-07-2013 06:33 PM
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Dukes09 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-07-2013 06:33 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  IMO all these FCS schools upgrading their programs to FBS, or wishing to, will eventually be right back where they started. I've long been of the opinion that there will be a major reorganization of who is a top level football program, and who isn't. Whether the NCAA is a part of the equation has yet to be determined...

most are aware of that fact too. top fcs teams are trying to reorganize themselves with non-bcs fbs teams instead of being stuck in what is about to be a third level of cfb. d2 will be a 4th level and d3 a fifth level.
there's no guarantee that the group of 5 FBS conferences will be grabbing FCS teams after a bcs conference split. you get in while the gettin' is good.
(This post was last modified: 04-07-2013 06:53 PM by Dukes09.)
04-07-2013 06:52 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-07-2013 06:52 PM)Dukes09 Wrote:  
(04-07-2013 06:33 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  IMO all these FCS schools upgrading their programs to FBS, or wishing to, will eventually be right back where they started. I've long been of the opinion that there will be a major reorganization of who is a top level football program, and who isn't. Whether the NCAA is a part of the equation has yet to be determined...

most are aware of that fact too. top fcs teams are trying to reorganize themselves with non-bcs fbs teams instead of being stuck in what is about to be a third level of cfb. d2 will be a 4th level and d3 a fifth level.
there's no guarantee that the group of 5 FBS conferences will be grabbing FCS teams after a bcs conference split. you get in while the gettin' is good.

This is why I've supported App's move to the FBS for years.
04-07-2013 07:31 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-07-2013 06:33 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  IMO all these FCS schools upgrading their programs to FBS, or wishing to, will eventually be right back where they started. I've long been of the opinion that there will be a major reorganization of who is a top level football program, and who isn't. Whether the NCAA is a part of the equation has yet to be determined...

Past history says that probably isn't correct.

There will be some move-ups who might be moved backs but just as many of the moved downs will be programs that have a longer history and have not been able to establish a fan base.
04-07-2013 08:56 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-05-2013 01:20 PM)giesing Wrote:  In my eyes, it is some kind of a monopoly and someone is shut out of the "FBS-Business", because of their religious belief.

Monopolies are held over industries not companies. So long as the NAIA is there then nobody can say "The NCAA has a monopoly"..

And this is no just about Liberties religious belief, Liberty is a school with no longstanding athletics history and there are only so many spots.

Who has moved up that was less deserving than Liberty?

Quote:If Liberty fulfill all other criteria to be a FBS-School, the NCAA should Liberty allow to upgrade as an independent.

No, because one of the criteria is that you have to have a conference.
04-08-2013 01:03 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-08-2013 01:03 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 01:20 PM)giesing Wrote:  In my eyes, it is some kind of a monopoly and someone is shut out of the "FBS-Business", because of their religious belief.

Monopolies are held over industries not companies. So long as the NAIA is there then nobody can say "The NCAA has a monopoly"..
Yet the existence of the Mac and Apple's OS, with Linux also set forward by Microsoft was not sufficient for them to win the argument, and they were ruled a monopoly. In that kind of anti-trust action, a key question is determining the relevant market, and it would be very hard to maintain that the market that the Access Bowl schools are in and the market that the NAIA is in are substantially the same market.

Quote: Who has moved up that was less deserving than Liberty?
This is a lot more to the point. Liberty would have to show that they would be allowed to upgrade under a reasonable standard and have been denied an upgrade because of the standard applied was unreasonable.

And its hard to find a general standard that would be widely accepted as reasonable under which they "ought to be" next in line.
04-08-2013 10:48 AM
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Post: #58
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-08-2013 10:48 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(04-08-2013 01:03 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 01:20 PM)giesing Wrote:  In my eyes, it is some kind of a monopoly and someone is shut out of the "FBS-Business", because of their religious belief.

Monopolies are held over industries not companies. So long as the NAIA is there then nobody can say "The NCAA has a monopoly"..
Yet the existence of the Mac and Apple's OS, with Linux also set forward by Microsoft was not sufficient for them to win the argument, and they were ruled a monopoly. In that kind of anti-trust action, a key question is determining the relevant market, and it would be very hard to maintain that the market that the Access Bowl schools are in and the market that the NAIA is in are substantially the same market.

Quote: Who has moved up that was less deserving than Liberty?
This is a lot more to the point. Liberty would have to show that they would be allowed to upgrade under a reasonable standard and have been denied an upgrade because of the standard applied was unreasonable.

And its hard to find a general standard that would be widely accepted as reasonable under which they "ought to be" next in line.

No Microsoft was ruled to be engaging in a way to create a monopoly by make the IE browser not only the default browser in Windows by shipping it with Windows, they made it essential to the operation of Windows that you have IE installed and did not provide an easy way to make any other browser the default so that if you clicked on a link in a document the other browser would open.

The court held their behavior was designed to create a monopoly and deny access to the market for competitors when less restrictive means could have been used by Microsoft.

The NCAA has inherent interest in assuring that schools wishing to be FBS meet certain standards AND have the capacity to meet those standards.

A school wishing to realign to FBS is required to play a minimum number of games vs FBS competition. Perfectly reasonable restriction. Why should a team playing a majority or half their games against lower division teams be permitted to market themselves as FBS? It harms the FBS brand.

A school wishing to realign FBS is required to play a minimum of five home games vs high scholarship programs. That protects the brand so that a school does not market itself as FBS without playing FBS home games of very few FBS home games. There are past examples of FBS schools (back when it was called I-A or just I) that played few home games and their lack of success by being on the road so much harmed local market interest depressing ticket sales making it difficult to continue to operate a football team and a number of schools did in fact drop football. Each dropped program is a loss of opportunity for the involved student-athletes and creates a financial hardship for schools that had them on future schedules. It is a reasonable restriction.

The requirement that a school be invited by a conference furthers those aims. Would a court strike them completely down? That is unlikely. A court might direct that there be a less restrictive option, such as the old rule where you had to line up four years worth of contracts but the history of the change is that the old rule was hard on the schools and the NCAA, there is no guarantee the NCAA would even be forced to offer that option and the chances that the membership criteria would be struck down are slim.
04-08-2013 11:04 AM
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SlyFox Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
Interesting thread, guys. For the record, we have never threatened to sue the NCAA but I wouldn't rule anything out under the proper circumstances. Hopefully we never get to that point because a conference will look passed the stereotypes being thrown around by some in this thread to see what the school actually is today. And frankly it is in much greater financial position than most G5 schools because we aren't not tied to state budgets. We consider our private status a asset and not a demia.
04-09-2013 05:44 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Can Liberty sue the NCAA for an FBS-upgrade as an Independent?
(04-08-2013 11:04 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(04-08-2013 10:48 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Yet the existence of the Mac and Apple's OS, with Linux also set forward by Microsoft was not sufficient for them to win the argument, and they were ruled a monopoly. In that kind of anti-trust action, a key question is determining the relevant market, and it would be very hard to maintain that the market that the Access Bowl schools are in and the market that the NAIA is in are substantially the same market.

No Microsoft was ruled to be engaging in a way to create a monopoly by make the IE browser not only the default browser in Windows by shipping it with Windows, they made it essential to the operation of Windows that you have IE installed and did not provide an easy way to make any other browser the default so that if you clicked on a link in a document the other browser would open.

The court held their behavior was designed to create a monopoly and deny access to the market for competitors when less restrictive means could have been used by Microsoft.
I follow everything here except the "No", since there's nothing here that contradicts what I said. The determination by the court regarding the appropriate market within which to apply market dominance tests was a critical step in arriving at that result. Microsoft would have had a much easier time making their case if the market definition they set forward been applied.

Quote: The NCAA has inherent interest in assuring that schools wishing to be FBS meet certain standards AND have the capacity to meet those standards.
Yes. Having an interest in assuring that schools meet standard and have the capacity to meet certain standards is what channels the question toward whether the actual rules put in place are reasonable instruments to use in pursuit of those interests.
04-11-2013 02:59 PM
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