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Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
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jaminandjachin Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 09:45 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:15 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:02 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:07 AM)Maize Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:05 AM)S11 Wrote:  If you haven't read their suit against the ACC it lays out a pretty good case that the ACC didn't even follow it's own bylaws in adopting the exit fee raise, didn't implement it at the right time, and therefore may have issues holding it up in court.

It's going to be interesting either way.
That the key to the case, but in the end I don't see this going all the way to court...JMO, they will settle so both sides will "feel" good about the situation.
IMO the only way Maryland settles is if the ACC backs off the raise in the exit fee. I don't see them paying more than the original $25 million, unless forced to by the court...
Well we all know the ACC is not going to back off. Maryland may settle because they're just ready to move on and believe the Big 10 money is so good it won't matter. If this goes to court, they would end up paying more than the exit fee..when you include lawyer costs.
That depends on whether or not they win the case. The loser is usually responsible for any court costs, and if Maryland wins, the ACC will most likely pay them...

Maryland won't win. The only thing that could happen is a reduced exit fee decision by the courts, but Maryland would still be on the hook for everything else. Exit fees are in the by-laws. If they drag this out the lawyer fees alone might be more than the exit fee.
03-15-2013 10:08 AM
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Dasville Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 08:25 AM)94panther Wrote:  
(03-14-2013 09:58 PM)Big 12 Wrote:  
(03-14-2013 07:05 PM)PhiladelphiaVT Wrote:  More conference realigment nonsense. Thamel seems convinced that the ACC will soon be poached into near-oblivion, so what difference does it make where future ACC basketball tournaments are held? Why would MSG want to sign a long-term lease with a soon-to-be-gutted ACC when in a few years MSG could sign such a lease with an 18-20 team B1G that includes UNC, Duke, Virginia, Maryland, Penn State, Rutgers, Ohio State, and Michigan?

The Big East used to be the Big East and play at MSG. After the next round of raids, the ACC will be the Big East and should play at MSG......why is that so hard to figure out?

By the way,this quote was HUGE by Thamel:

"All five major conference commissioners privately acknowledge that realignment isn't done. And the next logical evolution will inevitably be a poaching of the ACC."

So, either Thamel is a liar and willing to throw his career down the toilet to support WVU message board rumors...OR...Swofford is telling people that the writing is on the wall and the ACC is in huge trouble. Even Swofford is admitting it to people but it is tragic that not one of the myopic ACC fans who post here can come to terms with reality.

No offense, but i think you are reading this quote incorrectly.

The five major conference commissioners acknowledged that realignment is not done. This is obvious, every conference had teams they would like to add, if possible.

Thamel says that the ACC being poached is the next logical step. Not the five conference commissioners, just Thamel. Big difference.


That is how I read it and imo how it was intended to be read.

I think some here are also forgetting about the realignment that is taking place in the non-contract conferences. I know we as fans look through our own prisms but those conferences have commissioners as well and they are peers to the five major conferences commissioners. I think they (5 major conference commissioners) give realignment in the "gang of 5" much more respect than many fans.
03-15-2013 10:17 AM
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Dasville Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
To leave the Big 12 in the same time frame as you can in the ACC, the exit fee would be close to $31 million. Add the exit fee and the GOR together and it seems that it would be very difficult for any team in the Big 12 to leave but perhaps Texas.

It would also make the decision to join the Big 12 very tough, almost would have to be more than a last resort. It may have to be a schools only choice.
03-15-2013 10:27 AM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 09:45 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:15 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:02 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:07 AM)Maize Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:05 AM)S11 Wrote:  If you haven't read their suit against the ACC it lays out a pretty good case that the ACC didn't even follow it's own bylaws in adopting the exit fee raise, didn't implement it at the right time, and therefore may have issues holding it up in court.

It's going to be interesting either way.
That the key to the case, but in the end I don't see this going all the way to court...JMO, they will settle so both sides will "feel" good about the situation.
IMO the only way Maryland settles is if the ACC backs off the raise in the exit fee. I don't see them paying more than the original $25 million, unless forced to by the court...
Well we all know the ACC is not going to back off. Maryland may settle because they're just ready to move on and believe the Big 10 money is so good it won't matter. If this goes to court, they would end up paying more than the exit fee..when you include lawyer costs.
That depends on whether or not they win the case. The loser is usually responsible for any court costs, and if Maryland wins, the ACC will most likely pay them...

Like West Virginia "won" their case against the Big East?

More likely the court will send them back to the table to work out a mutually agreeable settlement as happened in WVU vs BE.
03-15-2013 10:31 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 10:08 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:45 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:15 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:02 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:07 AM)Maize Wrote:  That the key to the case, but in the end I don't see this going all the way to court...JMO, they will settle so both sides will "feel" good about the situation.
IMO the only way Maryland settles is if the ACC backs off the raise in the exit fee. I don't see them paying more than the original $25 million, unless forced to by the court...
Well we all know the ACC is not going to back off. Maryland may settle because they're just ready to move on and believe the Big 10 money is so good it won't matter. If this goes to court, they would end up paying more than the exit fee..when you include lawyer costs.
That depends on whether or not they win the case. The loser is usually responsible for any court costs, and if Maryland wins, the ACC will most likely pay them...
Maryland won't win. The only thing that could happen is a reduced exit fee decision by the courts, but Maryland would still be on the hook for everything else. Exit fees are in the by-laws. If they drag this out the lawyer fees alone might be more than the exit fee.
When did you get appointed the judge in this case? He's the only one who can make that determination...

(03-15-2013 10:31 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Like West Virginia "won" their case against the Big East?

More likely the court will send them back to the table to work out a mutually agreeable settlement as happened in WVU vs BE.
WVU settled with The BEast, so we could get out immediately. It never went to court. I guess you missed that memo...

Perhaps UConn fans are too concerned with the infighting over the exit fee distribution with the C7 schools to worry about the details of WVU's exit. That looks to be your major source of income after 2014...
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2013 11:38 AM by bitcruncher.)
03-15-2013 11:37 AM
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jaminandjachin Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
I don't have to be appointed a judge to see how this is going to go down. You leave a conference..you pay. It's that simple. If Maryland wants to challenge the amount..that's fine but that's going to cost too. All of that nonsense about treble damages. That was just a scare tactic and the ACC didn't flinch.
03-15-2013 12:08 PM
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Post: #107
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 10:08 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:45 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:15 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:02 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:07 AM)Maize Wrote:  That the key to the case, but in the end I don't see this going all the way to court...JMO, they will settle so both sides will "feel" good about the situation.
IMO the only way Maryland settles is if the ACC backs off the raise in the exit fee. I don't see them paying more than the original $25 million, unless forced to by the court...
Well we all know the ACC is not going to back off. Maryland may settle because they're just ready to move on and believe the Big 10 money is so good it won't matter. If this goes to court, they would end up paying more than the exit fee..when you include lawyer costs.
That depends on whether or not they win the case. The loser is usually responsible for any court costs, and if Maryland wins, the ACC will most likely pay them...

Maryland won't win. The only thing that could happen is a reduced exit fee decision by the courts, but Maryland would still be on the hook for everything else. Exit fees are in the by-laws. If they drag this out the lawyer fees alone might be more than the exit fee.

And the ACC could easily spend more in lawyer fees than they collect. That's why it will be settled at some point.
03-15-2013 12:12 PM
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Post: #108
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 10:05 AM)Dasville Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:49 AM)Big 12 Wrote:  The ADs have read the GORs, the conference commissioners have read the GORs, the TV networks have read the GORs and these guys (most of which are or were attorneys) are the ones saying they think the GORs are ironclad.

The only people saying GORs aren't ironclad are the ACC posters on this board, who have never read the documents, but have countless theories about special loopholes allowing Texas to exit without penalty if DeLoss Dodds gets too much mustard on his turkey sandwich.


If the GOR was so ironclad, why does the Big 12 still have an exit fee?

Because the GOR serves more purposes and relates to the TV contract. The exit fee also deals with non-TV issues (which is why WVU had to pay $20 million to get out of the BE early).
03-15-2013 12:15 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 12:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:08 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:45 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:15 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:02 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  IMO the only way Maryland settles is if the ACC backs off the raise in the exit fee. I don't see them paying more than the original $25 million, unless forced to by the court...
Well we all know the ACC is not going to back off. Maryland may settle because they're just ready to move on and believe the Big 10 money is so good it won't matter. If this goes to court, they would end up paying more than the exit fee..when you include lawyer costs.
That depends on whether or not they win the case. The loser is usually responsible for any court costs, and if Maryland wins, the ACC will most likely pay them...

Maryland won't win. The only thing that could happen is a reduced exit fee decision by the courts, but Maryland would still be on the hook for everything else. Exit fees are in the by-laws. If they drag this out the lawyer fees alone might be more than the exit fee.

And the ACC could easily spend more in lawyer fees than they collect. That's why it will be settled at some point.

... Which is exactly the same thing that will happen when a school tries to leave a conference that has a grant-of-rights agreement.

Both sides file lawsuits, they hire lawyers, the lawyers bill their brains out, the lawyers start sending huge invoices to both sides, and finally they get together in a conference room somewhere and settle the thing.
03-15-2013 12:16 PM
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Post: #110
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 12:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 12:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:08 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:45 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:15 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  Well we all know the ACC is not going to back off. Maryland may settle because they're just ready to move on and believe the Big 10 money is so good it won't matter. If this goes to court, they would end up paying more than the exit fee..when you include lawyer costs.
That depends on whether or not they win the case. The loser is usually responsible for any court costs, and if Maryland wins, the ACC will most likely pay them...

Maryland won't win. The only thing that could happen is a reduced exit fee decision by the courts, but Maryland would still be on the hook for everything else. Exit fees are in the by-laws. If they drag this out the lawyer fees alone might be more than the exit fee.

And the ACC could easily spend more in lawyer fees than they collect. That's why it will be settled at some point.

... Which is exactly the same thing that will happen when a school tries to leave a conference that has a grant-of-rights agreement.

Both sides file lawsuits, they hire lawyers, the lawyers bill their brains out, the lawyers start sending huge invoices to both sides, and finally they get together in a conference room somewhere and settle the thing.

The difference is huge. The networks are a part of the grant of rights. Its not just a contract with the conference and schools. The future conference is at risk of losing games to the old conference under the GOR. Noone will touch a school with a GOR with a 10 foot pole unless there is already a mutually agreed separation. With an exit fee its only the school at risk and they are only challenging the conference. With a GOR there are lots of people at risk and lots of parties involved that have to agree. Talking about a school leaving with a GOR is just silly.

The ACC fans talking about someone leaving the Big 12 before the contract is up are just totally delusional. The non-ACC fans saying it just aren't thinking it through.

Now GORs, unlike exit fees, do expire. Then its a different issue.
03-15-2013 12:23 PM
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jaminandjachin Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 12:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:08 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:45 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:15 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:02 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  IMO the only way Maryland settles is if the ACC backs off the raise in the exit fee. I don't see them paying more than the original $25 million, unless forced to by the court...
Well we all know the ACC is not going to back off. Maryland may settle because they're just ready to move on and believe the Big 10 money is so good it won't matter. If this goes to court, they would end up paying more than the exit fee..when you include lawyer costs.
That depends on whether or not they win the case. The loser is usually responsible for any court costs, and if Maryland wins, the ACC will most likely pay them...

Maryland won't win. The only thing that could happen is a reduced exit fee decision by the courts, but Maryland would still be on the hook for everything else. Exit fees are in the by-laws. If they drag this out the lawyer fees alone might be more than the exit fee.

And the ACC could easily spend more in lawyer fees than they collect. That's why it will be settled at some point.

Not the same. The ACC will spend 100 mill if they have to. Upholding a large fee keeps other conferences away. The ACC stands to lose a whole lot more than 50 mill if they let Maryland off the hook.
03-15-2013 12:29 PM
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Post: #112
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 12:29 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 12:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:08 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:45 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:15 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  Well we all know the ACC is not going to back off. Maryland may settle because they're just ready to move on and believe the Big 10 money is so good it won't matter. If this goes to court, they would end up paying more than the exit fee..when you include lawyer costs.
That depends on whether or not they win the case. The loser is usually responsible for any court costs, and if Maryland wins, the ACC will most likely pay them...

Maryland won't win. The only thing that could happen is a reduced exit fee decision by the courts, but Maryland would still be on the hook for everything else. Exit fees are in the by-laws. If they drag this out the lawyer fees alone might be more than the exit fee.

And the ACC could easily spend more in lawyer fees than they collect. That's why it will be settled at some point.

Not the same. The ACC will spend 100 mill if they have to. Upholding a large fee keeps other conferences away. The ACC stands to lose a whole lot more than 50 mill if they let Maryland off the hook.

But if they lose, their exit fee is invalidated. If they settle, they can have language like Maryland recognizes the exit fee, but we will settle to avoid litigation. There's no negative legal precedent if they settle. Its a huge risk to take it to court. They will drag it out, but they won't go to court. Neither will Maryland, unless the ACC refuses to compromise.
03-15-2013 12:32 PM
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jaminandjachin Offline
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Post: #113
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 12:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 12:29 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 12:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:08 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:45 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  That depends on whether or not they win the case. The loser is usually responsible for any court costs, and if Maryland wins, the ACC will most likely pay them...

Maryland won't win. The only thing that could happen is a reduced exit fee decision by the courts, but Maryland would still be on the hook for everything else. Exit fees are in the by-laws. If they drag this out the lawyer fees alone might be more than the exit fee.

And the ACC could easily spend more in lawyer fees than they collect. That's why it will be settled at some point.

Not the same. The ACC will spend 100 mill if they have to. Upholding a large fee keeps other conferences away. The ACC stands to lose a whole lot more than 50 mill if they let Maryland off the hook.

But if they lose, their exit fee is invalidated. If they settle, they can have language like Maryland recognizes the exit fee, but we will settle to avoid litigation. There's no negative legal precedent if they settle. Its a huge risk to take it to court. They will drag it out, but they won't go to court. Neither will Maryland, unless the ACC refuses to compromise.

ACC will most likely refuse to compromise. You can't make it that easy to leave...ask the Big East how that worked out.
03-15-2013 12:41 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #114
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 12:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 12:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 12:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:08 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 09:45 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  That depends on whether or not they win the case. The loser is usually responsible for any court costs, and if Maryland wins, the ACC will most likely pay them...

Maryland won't win. The only thing that could happen is a reduced exit fee decision by the courts, but Maryland would still be on the hook for everything else. Exit fees are in the by-laws. If they drag this out the lawyer fees alone might be more than the exit fee.

And the ACC could easily spend more in lawyer fees than they collect. That's why it will be settled at some point.

... Which is exactly the same thing that will happen when a school tries to leave a conference that has a grant-of-rights agreement.

Both sides file lawsuits, they hire lawyers, the lawyers bill their brains out, the lawyers start sending huge invoices to both sides, and finally they get together in a conference room somewhere and settle the thing.

The difference is huge. The networks are a part of the grant of rights. Its not just a contract with the conference and schools. The future conference is at risk of losing games to the old conference under the GOR. Noone will touch a school with a GOR with a 10 foot pole unless there is already a mutually agreed separation. With an exit fee its only the school at risk and they are only challenging the conference. With a GOR there are lots of people at risk and lots of parties involved that have to agree. Talking about a school leaving with a GOR is just silly.

The ACC fans talking about someone leaving the Big 12 before the contract is up are just totally delusional. The non-ACC fans saying it just aren't thinking it through.

Now GORs, unlike exit fees, do expire. Then its a different issue.

Meh. All of the TV rights are locked up by ESPN and Fox who have become friendly competitors with the mutual goal of keeping NBCSN and other would-be competitors down. The ESPN and Fox suits can work out any differences by trading a few game rights here and there or exchanging a few dollars to even things out.

The only way a GOR would be more effective is if people think it works, whether it does or not -- i.e., a placebo effect.

But once someone decides they really want to leave, the lawyers will just fight it out and decide what the price of leaving is. If the Big Ten gets as much money as Delany thinks he's going to get, and they start paying each member $35 million/year, and then they ask Kansas if they'd like a huge pay raise, you think KU is just going to hide under the table and tremble in fear of The Big Bad GOR? No way.
03-15-2013 12:41 PM
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Post: #115
RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 12:41 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 12:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 12:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 12:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:08 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  Maryland won't win. The only thing that could happen is a reduced exit fee decision by the courts, but Maryland would still be on the hook for everything else. Exit fees are in the by-laws. If they drag this out the lawyer fees alone might be more than the exit fee.

And the ACC could easily spend more in lawyer fees than they collect. That's why it will be settled at some point.

... Which is exactly the same thing that will happen when a school tries to leave a conference that has a grant-of-rights agreement.

Both sides file lawsuits, they hire lawyers, the lawyers bill their brains out, the lawyers start sending huge invoices to both sides, and finally they get together in a conference room somewhere and settle the thing.

The difference is huge. The networks are a part of the grant of rights. Its not just a contract with the conference and schools. The future conference is at risk of losing games to the old conference under the GOR. Noone will touch a school with a GOR with a 10 foot pole unless there is already a mutually agreed separation. With an exit fee its only the school at risk and they are only challenging the conference. With a GOR there are lots of people at risk and lots of parties involved that have to agree. Talking about a school leaving with a GOR is just silly.

The ACC fans talking about someone leaving the Big 12 before the contract is up are just totally delusional. The non-ACC fans saying it just aren't thinking it through.

Now GORs, unlike exit fees, do expire. Then its a different issue.

Meh. All of the TV rights are locked up by ESPN and Fox who have become friendly competitors with the mutual goal of keeping NBCSN and other would-be competitors down. The ESPN and Fox suits can work out any differences by trading a few game rights here and there or exchanging a few dollars to even things out.

The only way a GOR would be more effective is if people think it works, whether it does or not -- i.e., a placebo effect.

But once someone decides they really want to leave, the lawyers will just fight it out and decide what the price of leaving is. If the Big Ten gets as much money as Delany thinks he's going to get, and they start paying each member $35 million/year, and then they ask Kansas if they'd like a huge pay raise, you think KU is just going to hide under the table and tremble in fear of The Big Bad GOR? No way.

If Texas told the Big 10 they were ready to give up the Longhorn Network and move in 2014, the Big 10 would say, "We're very interested. Call back in 10 years."
03-15-2013 12:43 PM
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RE: Thamel: The ACC should sign w/ MSG; Realignment not over.
(03-15-2013 07:50 AM)Tallgrass Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 06:41 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Quotes mean jack. Only someone who has actually read a legal agreement can comment on it with any accuracy.

As a lawyer, I know of nobody in the legal profession who would give an opinion on it without reviewing the document.

Lawyers also know better than to ever speak in absolutes.

Finally, all lawyers know that all contracts are made to be broken and draft them on the assumption that a breach will occur.

Until someone posts the actual document, everything said about it is conjecture and talking without knowing.

I am not an attorney. But it seems to me that the ACC will not win against Maryland since Maryland did not agree to the binding ACC document to begin with.

But the B12 situation is unique because each and every B12 school signed it volunarily. It seems on this board, many say this contract is invalid. But contracts have to be vaild in a court of law, if they weren't, how could business operate in this country? The contract is a facilitator, it seems to me. Not some document to be ignored and/or thrown out because circumstances change.



All contacts are made to be broken. That is Contract Law 101 that law students learn the first day of class.

I just am pointing out that their may be clauses that deal with all types of situations, possibly including a school changing conferences or the conference dissolving.

No lawyer would make ironclad, certain statements about any contract he has reviewed.

None would make any statements about a contract he has not seen at all.

I can't make any statements one way or another. I haven't reviewed it.

I can't put any faith in quotes by other people who allegedly saw it either. Sorry. All of them may have agendas, spins to make and "misinformation" to spread. Right?

Doesn't this board always have folks telling us to never believe what anyone comes out and says about realignment topics?

I just don't put stock into anything allegedly "ironclad" in the legal arena. Show us the contract.
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2013 01:35 PM by TerryD.)
03-15-2013 01:29 PM
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