(02-07-2013 02:46 PM)lew240z Wrote:  

(02-07-2013 12:58 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(02-07-2013 12:48 PM)S11 Wrote:  

(02-07-2013 12:41 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 01:58 PM)lew240z Wrote:  BYU will be independent as long as the LDS leaders want them to be. BCS access and tv money are not among their primary considerations.

(02-06-2013 04:29 PM)gocards#1 Wrote:  The Big 12 wanted to add Louisville and BYU for the longest time but BYU wanted special treatment and the Big 12 said no, which is ironic considering how everyone bends to Texas' will in that conference.

The Big12's first choice was BYU and Air Force, but BYU did not work out and AFA said no thanks. So then they went to plan B and added TCU and West Virginia.

Actually no on both replies.

1- Louisville and BYU were the "if we HAD to" pair after TCU and WVU were added. UL and WVU was a close decision and BYU negotiated for too much when TCU was added.

2- AFA and BYU was a comment by OU's Castiglione that was DOA once the tv numbers came back.

Sorry Sammy, but with all due respect I do not beleive that is correct.. I read a quote from the Air Force Academy Commander where he said the Big12 wanted them, but they did not think it was fair to their players to ask them to compete week in and week out against bigger, superior athletes that the Big12 was allowed to recruit and they declined. Then there was another quote along the same line from the AFA coach. IIRC these were articles in the Denver and Colorado Springs papers. They were linked on the MWC website and that is where I read them.

I also read several other places that the AFA said no thanks.

Correct. I read comments about not wanting his players to get beat up playing in the XII made by the AFA AD at least twice in interviews with the Colorado Springs newspaper. BYU and AFA were contacted before TCU and WVU. The tv numbers were determined after TCU and WVU were added. Actually, AFA has been contacted by the XII several times over the years. The talks never went very far because AFA was not interested in the XII.

Yes ....I remember not long after the Big12 was formed, there was talk that Colorado was eyeing the PAC12. A reporter asked Bill Byrne, who was then the Nebraska AD and sort of the Dean of the Big12 AD's, what would the Big12 do if Colorado left.

Byrne said the Big12 had a contingency plan in place and they would invite Arkansas and if they said no, they would invite the Air Force Academy. So the AFA had been in their crosshairs for a long time.

(02-07-2013 07:48 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(02-07-2013 02:46 PM)lew240z Wrote:  

(02-07-2013 12:58 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(02-07-2013 12:48 PM)S11 Wrote:  

(02-07-2013 12:41 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  The Big12's first choice was BYU and Air Force, but BYU did not work out and AFA said no thanks. So then they went to plan B and added TCU and West Virginia.

Actually no on both replies.

1- Louisville and BYU were the "if we HAD to" pair after TCU and WVU were added. UL and WVU was a close decision and BYU negotiated for too much when TCU was added.

2- AFA and BYU was a comment by OU's Castiglione that was DOA once the tv numbers came back.

Sorry Sammy, but with all due respect I do not beleive that is correct.. I read a quote from the Air Force Academy Commander where he said the Big12 wanted them, but they did not think it was fair to their players to ask them to compete week in and week out against bigger, superior athletes that the Big12 was allowed to recruit and they declined. Then there was another quote along the same line from the AFA coach. IIRC these were articles in the Denver and Colorado Springs papers. They were linked on the MWC website and that is where I read them.

I also read several other places that the AFA said no thanks.

Correct. I read comments about not wanting his players to get beat up playing in the XII made by the AFA AD at least twice in interviews with the Colorado Springs newspaper. BYU and AFA were contacted before TCU and WVU. The tv numbers were determined after TCU and WVU were added. Actually, AFA has been contacted by the XII several times over the years. The talks never went very far because AFA was not interested in the XII.

Yes ....I remember not long after the Big12 was formed, there was talk that Colorado was eyeing the PAC12. A reporter asked Bill Byrne, who was then the Nebraska AD and sort of the Dean of the Big12 AD's, what would the Big12 do if Colorado left.

Byrne said the Big12 had a contingency plan in place and they would invite Arkansas and if they said no, they would invite the Air Force Academy. So the AFA had been in their crosshairs for a long time.

There were reports as early as 1990 that the PACs targets were Texas, Colorado and Utah. In 1994, the PAC all but extended formal invitations to Texas and Colorado. Texas decided to join the Big XII which started play in 1996. By a vote of 5 to 4 the CU Board of Regents voted to decline any invitation from the PAC and go with Texas to the XII. That does not mean that CU decided to stay in the Big 8. Without Texas, CU would have left.

(02-06-2013 06:14 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  BYU is one of a handful of programs not in the power conferences who may be able to make the jump. That said, BYU is a little over-hyped and has a harder road to travel than some other programs. Add a little sense of entitlement, and that's why BYU is outside the major conferences.

In terms of fan-support, facilities, budget for recruiting, budget for everything else, salaries, media-interest, etc., BYU has an athletic program that is 100% ready to compete in any power conference (putting geography aside) right now and actually that has been true for 20 years or more.

The only (repeat: ONLY) issues holding them back are rooted in some way in BYU's institutional mission as a religious (Mormon) university, and in the ways that certain segments of the population react to that mission. Now, to be sure, those issues are important and real and, when it's all said and done, those issues may very well be enough to keep BYU out of any "power conference" in the college-football landscape. College football is a crazy business and I would be cautious with predictions. But yes, the "LDS-factor" may force BYU to go it alone in football.

(02-07-2013 06:10 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  the road ahead for both programs is pretty uncertain, and while I can see both struggling, I can't see both succeeding.

Perhaps. As you said, we'll see how that unfolds.

I think both schools were stronger together than they will be apart. That seems to be consistent with your outlook, too.

(02-08-2013 09:20 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  The only (repeat: ONLY) issues holding them back are rooted in some way in BYU's institutional mission as a religious (Mormon) university, and in the ways that certain segments of the population react to that mission. Now, to be sure, those issues are important and real and, when it's all said and done, those issues may very well be enough to keep BYU out of any "power conference" in the college-football landscape. College football is a crazy business and I would be cautious with predictions. But yes, the "LDS-factor" may force BYU to go it alone in football.

The "LDS factor" is also the reason that BYU is fiscally solvent, so it's sort of a double edge sword. I think the main restrictions were previously self imposed with the honor code's intrinsic limitation on recruiting/retention of non-LDS players followed by prohibition of Sunday play. Prior to the church's support of Prop 8, I don't think there was much external aversion to the school's religious mission.

As far as better together goes, that wasn't where I was going. I actually think the scenario with the highest probably of success for both would have been BYU to the PAC (greatest numbers of LDS recruits in the footprint) and Utah to BigXII (we seem to recruit Texas better than Cali despite being in the PAC-probably due to the perception of being conservative and dull by west coast standards yet slightly more metropolitan and exciting than many BigXII destinations).

Because I think BYU is excluded from the power conference where it would have had the best chance of success is largely why I think BYU has a hard road compared to a school like UCONN that could do very well in the ACC or Houston that could probably do well in the ACC or BigXII if given the opportunity. Even some schools that aren't close right now (eg UNLV) seem to have fewer unresolvable impediments to moving up eventually.

(02-05-2013 02:01 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 01:58 PM)lew240z Wrote:  BYU will be independent as long as the LDS leaders want them to be. BCS access and tv money are not among their primary considerations.

until they finish a season #10 and miss out on the BCS for #20 Northern Illinois.

And they will still remain indy....Their goal is evangelism, as hard as that it is for most of us to believe...

(02-08-2013 09:39 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  Prior to the church's support of Prop 8, I don't think there was much external aversion to the school's religious mission.

The extent and intensity of anti-Mormon sentiment is difficult to quantify. My own perception is that the debate over Prop 8 and "gay marriage" in general merely brought up to the surface feelings that were already there and deeply-rooted in popular opinion.

Quote:I actually think the scenario with the highest probably of success for both would have been BYU to the PAC (greatest numbers of LDS recruits in the footprint) and Utah to BigXII (we seem to recruit Texas better than Cali despite being in the PAC-probably due to the perception of being conservative and dull by west coast standards yet slightly more metropolitan and exciting than many BigXII destinations).

Is there any evidence that UU sought Big XII membership? I think that if UU and BYU had presented a united front, they could have both been given invitations to the Big XII, and possibly to the Pac. At any rate, I think UU and CU will both struggle to remain relevant in the Pac-12. Being in the Pac-12 may be (to them) a more desirable fit from a social/cultural standpoint, and it may be a financial windfall. But in terms of Ws and Ls, I think they are going to be losers more often -- MUCH more often -- than winners. Two years isn't enough time to be sure, of course, but I know that UU is 6-10 against teams that were in the Pac-10 since joining and of course CU is just pitiful right now.

Quote:Because I think BYU is excluded from the power conference where it would have had the best chance of success is largely why I think BYU has a hard road compared to a school like UCONN that could do very well in the ACC or Houston that could probably do well in the ACC or BigXII if given the opportunity. Even some schools that aren't close right now (eg UNLV) seem to have fewer unresolvable impediments to moving up eventually.

I think if BYU, Houston and UConn were all in the same league, that BYU would consistently be better in football than the other two. Do you disagree?

[quote='Native Georgian' pid='8945115' dateline='1360441572']

[quote]The extent and intensity of anti-Mormon sentiment is difficult to quantify. My own perception is that the debate over Prop 8 and "gay marriage" in general merely brought up to the surface feelings that were already there and deeply-rooted in popular opinion.[/quote]

To the extent that feelings were already there, Prop 8 solidified and entrenched those feelings, and made some converts, especially for some important people in PAC Land (eg David "let me buy you a med school" Geffen).

[quote]Is there any evidence that UU sought Big XII membership?[/quote] None. It was the hypothetical scenario for the best chance for success for both teams. I think Utah's chances for success in the BigXII would have been a little better than they are in the PAC while BYU's odds for success would be substantially greater in the PAC than any other power conference. I think splitting the teams into separate conferences is better for both as it opens up the greatest amount of recruiting territories. Both couldn't succeed paired in the PAC or BigXII splitting Utah natives, LDS, Polynesian kids, and second tier CA or TX kids respectively.

[quote]I think if BYU, Houston and UConn were all in the same league, that BYU would consistently be better in football than the other two. Do you disagree?
[/quote] In a continental league of with these schools as the top teams, BYU would dominate. In any of the existing power leagues other than the PAC, I think BYU would be disadvantaged. I would favor both UCONN and Hou over BYU in the ACC and Houston > BYU > UCONN in the BigXII.

(02-09-2013 03:26 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  At any rate, I think UU and CU will both struggle to remain relevant in the Pac-12. Being in the Pac-12 may be (to them) a more desirable fit from a social/cultural standpoint, and it may be a financial windfall. But in terms of Ws and Ls, I think they are going to be losers more often -- MUCH more often -- than winners. Two years isn't enough time to be sure, of course, but I know that UU is 6-10 against teams that were in the Pac-10 since joining and of course CU is just pitiful right now.

CU was pitiful and irrelevant in the B12 before they jumped to the PAC. I don't think anyone believes that CU would have been competitive in the B12 the last couple of years if they hadn't moved conferences. If CU was going to suck anyway, I think they prefer sucking in the PAC instead of sucking in the B12.

Utah would probably have had the better record the last couple of years if they were still in the MWC playing a MWC schedule. But that's like telling someone getting straight B's at UPenn that he could have better grades if he were going to Penn State.

BYU's AD re: BYU's demands when considering conference affiliation. This tweet was in response to a question about joining the Big12.

Tom Holmoe @TomHolmoe

@TayJoyce8 "School" not demanding anything other than the obvious--Sunday play. I fully understand fans preference for BCS. Once again...

The Big XII or Pac-12. The MWC would have to really give BYU some really special benefits to lure them back but thats not likely. There could be a scenario where the remnants of the Big XII and ACC take a few others to form a leftover league after the B1G, SEC and Pac take what they want.

(02-21-2013 02:36 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  The Big XII or Pac-12. The MWC would have to really give BYU some really special benefits to lure them back but thats not likely. There could be a scenario where the remnants of the Big XII and ACC take a few others to form a leftover league after the B1G, SEC and Pac take what they want.

You need to give the realignment board a rest. You're actually beginning to think what you say is an actual truth.

(02-08-2013 09:20 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(02-06-2013 06:14 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  BYU is one of a handful of programs not in the power conferences who may be able to make the jump. That said, BYU is a little over-hyped and has a harder road to travel than some other programs. Add a little sense of entitlement, and that's why BYU is outside the major conferences.

In terms of fan-support, facilities, budget for recruiting, budget for everything else, salaries, media-interest, etc., BYU has an athletic program that is 100% ready to compete in any power conference (putting geography aside) right now and actually that has been true for 20 years or more.

The only (repeat: ONLY) issues holding them back are rooted in some way in BYU's institutional mission as a religious (Mormon) university, and in the ways that certain segments of the population react to that mission. Now, to be sure, those issues are important and real and, when it's all said and done, those issues may very well be enough to keep BYU out of any "power conference" in the college-football landscape. College football is a crazy business and I would be cautious with predictions. But yes, the "LDS-factor" may force BYU to go it alone in football.

Good, I hope that BYU can remain a football independent and be successful as such.

I was at the BYU/ND game in South Bend last season. The BYU fans were very pleasant and really seemed to enjoy being there.

I wish them well (when not playing ND).

(02-09-2013 09:43 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 03:26 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  At any rate, I think UU and CU will both struggle to remain relevant in the Pac-12. Being in the Pac-12 may be (to them) a more desirable fit from a social/cultural standpoint, and it may be a financial windfall. But in terms of Ws and Ls, I think they are going to be losers more often -- MUCH more often -- than winners. Two years isn't enough time to be sure, of course, but I know that UU is 6-10 against teams that were in the Pac-10 since joining and of course CU is just pitiful right now.

CU was pitiful and irrelevant in the B12 before they jumped to the PAC. I don't think anyone believes that CU would have been competitive in the B12 the last couple of years if they hadn't moved conferences. If CU was going to suck anyway, I think they prefer sucking in the PAC instead of sucking in the B12.

I agree about CU's status in the B12 the last few years, and that jumping to the PAC did not "cause" them to become a sh*tty football team. My point is just to say that over the next few years (IMHO) the Buffs would have had a better chance of recovering in the B12 than they have now in the PAC. I think they are pretty much doomed to suck in the PAC for a long time. I don't think their difficulties would've been quite so bad in the B12.

I agree with your point that CU probably prefers to suck in the PAC instead of sucking in the B12. I honestly don't know any CU fans so I don't know how much they are enjoying that right now.

(02-21-2013 07:39 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-08-2013 09:20 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  In terms of fan-support, facilities, budget for recruiting, budget for everything else, salaries, media-interest, etc., BYU has an athletic program that is 100% ready to compete in any power conference (putting geography aside) right now and actually that has been true for 20 years or more.

The only (repeat: ONLY) issues holding them back are rooted in some way in BYU's institutional mission as a religious (Mormon) university, and in the ways that certain segments of the population react to that mission. Now, to be sure, those issues are important and real and, when it's all said and done, those issues may very well be enough to keep BYU out of any "power conference" in the college-football landscape. College football is a crazy business and I would be cautious with predictions. But yes, the "LDS-factor" may force BYU to go it alone in football.

Good, I hope that BYU can remain a football independent and be successful as such.

I was at the BYU/ND game in South Bend last season. The BYU fans were very pleasant and really seemed to enjoy being there.

I wish them well (when not playing ND).

TD, I would love to see a college-football world in which lots of schools could thrive and succeed as Independents. I think it would be healthy for a lot of reasons. Such a world existed from the beginning of organized college football in the 1880s up until about 20 years ago. Realitically, however, I don't think those circumstances can be recreated now. A shame that they can't, IMHO.

It is not really clear yet if BYU will be able to thrive as an Independent or not. They are still in the very early phase of this "experiment" and I don't think they or anyone else has really formed a final opinion about it.

I will say that if Notre Dame desires for BYU to remain Independent in football, it would help to continue that series for as long as possible. I don't know if either school wants to do that, or not.

(02-21-2013 02:36 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  The MWC would have to really give BYU some really special benefits to lure them back but thats not likely.

This.

The Mtn. has already given Boise State the sweetest sweetheart deal that any member of an FBS football conference has. BYU considers itself (correctly, IMHO) as a bigger catch than Boise State, so the "Boise deal" would be merely the opening bid in any negotiations involving BYU and the Mtn. Fans of the Mtn. can speak for themselves on this point, but I don't sense much of an appetite to give BYU the kind of deal they would want.

(02-21-2013 10:07 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(02-21-2013 07:39 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-08-2013 09:20 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  In terms of fan-support, facilities, budget for recruiting, budget for everything else, salaries, media-interest, etc., BYU has an athletic program that is 100% ready to compete in any power conference (putting geography aside) right now and actually that has been true for 20 years or more.

The only (repeat: ONLY) issues holding them back are rooted in some way in BYU's institutional mission as a religious (Mormon) university, and in the ways that certain segments of the population react to that mission. Now, to be sure, those issues are important and real and, when it's all said and done, those issues may very well be enough to keep BYU out of any "power conference" in the college-football landscape. College football is a crazy business and I would be cautious with predictions. But yes, the "LDS-factor" may force BYU to go it alone in football.

Good, I hope that BYU can remain a football independent and be successful as such.

I was at the BYU/ND game in South Bend last season. The BYU fans were very pleasant and really seemed to enjoy being there.

I wish them well (when not playing ND).

TD, I would love to see a college-football world in which lots of schools could thrive and succeed as Independents. I think it would be healthy for a lot of reasons. Such a world existed from the beginning of organized college football in the 1880s up until about 20 years ago. Realitically, however, I don't think those circumstances can be recreated now. A shame that they can't, IMHO.

It is not really clear yet if BYU will be able to thrive as an Independent or not. They are still in the very early phase of this "experiment" and I don't think they or anyone else has really formed a final opinion about it.

I will say that if Notre Dame desires for BYU to remain Independent in football, it would help to continue that series for as long as possible. I don't know if either school wants to do that, or not.

I think that they do want to continue the series. Right now, the two schools are natural allies, despite the religious difference.

Both are football independents and private schools. I don't see why ND and BYU cannot play often or even every year.