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Glassonion Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Why is it taking so long
(05-22-2012 06:24 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  In the free market system you have the choice of being hired by an existing firm or going out on your own to start a new business and compete in the free market.

In the NCAA, you can only be picked by an existing conference (company) and you are not allowed to go out on your own (independent) or partner with other people that want to start a business (form a new conference).

Sounds more like a country club membership than a free market enterprise. And lets remember that there is a lot of public tax money tied up in these Universities.

At least somebody got it.
05-22-2012 06:40 PM
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Panthersville Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Why is it taking so long
(05-22-2012 06:40 PM)Glassonion Wrote:  
(05-22-2012 06:24 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  In the free market system you have the choice of being hired by an existing firm or going out on your own to start a new business and compete in the free market.

In the NCAA, you can only be picked by an existing conference (company) and you are not allowed to go out on your own (independent) or partner with other people that want to start a business (form a new conference).

Sounds more like a country club membership than a free market enterprise. And lets remember that there is a lot of public tax money tied up in these Universities.

At least somebody got it.

No, he engaged in the same horrible analysis you did.

"In the free market system you have the choice of being hired by an existing firm or going out on your own to start a new business and compete in the free market.
In the NCAA, you can only be picked by an existing conference (company) and you are not allowed to go out on your own (independent) or partner with other people that want to start a business (form a new conference)."

This ignores that the NCAA operates within a free market - it is not compulsory. In the free market, you can be hired by an employee to contribute to their company. In the NCAA, you can be picked by an conference to contribute to their conference.

It is true that in the free market you can go out on your own, however if you go out on your own with a product nobody wants to buy, you will fail. In the NCAA market, programs are the products and conferences are the buyers. You can announce the availability of your product and try to sell it, but if nobody buys it, it is not the market's fault. If you want to sell your product in a different market, you can schedule all the JUCOs, prep schools and NAIA schools you want. You can even try to get other people in the market to come with you - nobody is stopping you.

"Sounds more like a country club membership than a free market enterprise. And lets remember that there is a lot of public tax money tied up in these Universities."

What about a country club doesn't align with free enterprise? People pay a sum of money to join the club, and they are allowed entry if their addition to the club is acceptable to the current members. To force the club members to accept members they do not want is, again, not "free market" - it is socialistic. Now, you will point out that in certain instances, clubs have been forced to take certain members, and while that is true, that doesn't make those actions part of a "free market" philosophy.

Again, you are essentially arguing that there should be some sort of plan for small market schools that forces conferences to take them when it is not in their self-determined best interests. If that is what you want, fine, but it is NOT a free-market approach.
05-22-2012 08:16 PM
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Glassonion Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Why is it taking so long
(05-22-2012 08:16 PM)Panthersville Wrote:  This ignores that the NCAA operates within a free market - it is not compulsory. In the free market, you can be hired by an employee to contribute to their company. In the NCAA, you can be picked by an conference to contribute to their conference.

It is true that in the free market you can go out on your own, however if you go out on your own with a product nobody wants to buy, you will fail. In the NCAA market, programs are the products and conferences are the buyers. You can announce the availability of your product and try to sell it, but if nobody buys it, it is not the market's fault. If you want to sell your product in a different market, you can schedule all the JUCOs, prep schools and NAIA schools you want. You can even try to get other people in the market to come with you - nobody is stopping you.

"Sounds more like a country club membership than a free market enterprise. And lets remember that there is a lot of public tax money tied up in these Universities."

What about a country club doesn't align with free enterprise? People pay a sum of money to join the club, and they are allowed entry if their addition to the club is acceptable to the current members. To force the club members to accept members they do not want is, again, not "free market" - it is socialistic. Now, you will point out that in certain instances, clubs have been forced to take certain members, and while that is true, that doesn't make those actions part of a "free market" philosophy.

Again, you are essentially arguing that there should be some sort of plan for small market schools that forces conferences to take them when it is not in their self-determined best interests. If that is what you want, fine, but it is NOT a free-market approach.

Yes, the NCAA operates in a free society. But, joining the NCAA does NOT void lawful rights. You may sell yourself as a slave, sign a paper declaring it, but that paper is invalid. Why? Because a contract must be lawful.

And skipping to your last sentence, because Im not reading all of that,

Nobody wants to force a conference to accept anyone. I sure as hell dont want to be in a conference that doesnt want us, but the ability to create another conference, and compete in the market is a right.

The NCAA IS the college football market, it is a legal monopoly, just like many that the States and Federal government dole out, but the government is not regulating it as it does those other types of monopolies. And that will change, just a matter of time.
05-22-2012 08:45 PM
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GSU Eagles Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Why is it taking so long
(05-22-2012 08:16 PM)Panthersville Wrote:  
(05-22-2012 06:40 PM)Glassonion Wrote:  
(05-22-2012 06:24 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  In the free market system you have the choice of being hired by an existing firm or going out on your own to start a new business and compete in the free market.

In the NCAA, you can only be picked by an existing conference (company) and you are not allowed to go out on your own (independent) or partner with other people that want to start a business (form a new conference).

Sounds more like a country club membership than a free market enterprise. And lets remember that there is a lot of public tax money tied up in these Universities.

At least somebody got it.

No, he engaged in the same horrible analysis you did.

"In the free market system you have the choice of being hired by an existing firm or going out on your own to start a new business and compete in the free market.
In the NCAA, you can only be picked by an existing conference (company) and you are not allowed to go out on your own (independent) or partner with other people that want to start a business (form a new conference)."

This ignores that the NCAA operates within a free market - it is not compulsory. In the free market, you can be hired by an employee to contribute to their company. In the NCAA, you can be picked by an conference to contribute to their conference.

It is true that in the free market you can go out on your own, however if you go out on your own with a product nobody wants to buy, you will fail. In the NCAA market, programs are the products and conferences are the buyers. You can announce the availability of your product and try to sell it, but if nobody buys it, it is not the market's fault. If you want to sell your product in a different market, you can schedule all the JUCOs, prep schools and NAIA schools you want. You can even try to get other people in the market to come with you - nobody is stopping you.

"Sounds more like a country club membership than a free market enterprise. And lets remember that there is a lot of public tax money tied up in these Universities."

What about a country club doesn't align with free enterprise? People pay a sum of money to join the club, and they are allowed entry if their addition to the club is acceptable to the current members. To force the club members to accept members they do not want is, again, not "free market" - it is socialistic. Now, you will point out that in certain instances, clubs have been forced to take certain members, and while that is true, that doesn't make those actions part of a "free market" philosophy.

Again, you are essentially arguing that there should be some sort of plan for small market schools that forces conferences to take them when it is not in their self-determined best interests. If that is what you want, fine, but it is NOT a free-market approach.

Why not just allow teams to move up as an independent or allow a group of schools to form a new conference if this is truly a "free market" as you indicate? Notre Dame, Navy and others have operated perfectly fine as an independent.

You are making the argument that the NCAA is a good example of a free market enterprise which it is far from.

"It is true that in the free market you can go out on your own, however if you go out on your own with a product nobody wants to buy, you will fail. In the NCAA market, programs are the products and conferences are the buyers."

Terrible analogy. Conferences are not the consumer of college football, they are the middle man that you are forced to go through. The general public is the consumer of college football.
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2012 09:08 PM by GSU Eagles.)
05-22-2012 08:48 PM
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panama Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Why is it taking so long
Because Notre Dame and Navy are Notre Dame and Navy. They have built in fanbases of 50 to 100 million people. There is no comparison you can make to the current independents. In fact other than BYU maybe the only other school that go independent successfully is Texas
05-22-2012 08:53 PM
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GSU Eagles Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Why is it taking so long
(05-22-2012 08:53 PM)panama Wrote:  Because Notre Dame and Navy are Notre Dame and Navy. They have built in fanbases of 50 to 100 million people. There is no comparison you can make to the current independents. In fact other than BYU maybe the only other school that go independent successfully is Texas

If this is truly a free market system, why not allow a group of willing and able schools to form a new conference?
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2012 08:59 PM by GSU Eagles.)
05-22-2012 08:58 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #67
RE: Why is it taking so long
You cannot open any business you want.

You cannot provide medical treatment to people unless you are licensed to do that type of treatment.
You cannot provide accounting services and call yourself a CPA unless you have met the qualifications.
You cannot provide surveying services unless you have complied with the registration system of your state.
You cannot provide legal services unless you have completed the requirements to be licensed.

Let's do something simpler. Let's open a restaurant.

You want to open a restaurant? You have to have a business license. You have to have a retail sales tax permit. You have to have Department of Health permit. Your business location has to comply with local zoning law. In most places you have to get a permit for the sign you want out by the road. You have to comply with local fire laws and comply with disability access to get occupancy permit for your business.

You look around a realize that them Red Lobster people have a great thing going, so why not open a Red Lobster? To get the Red Lobster name you have to pay them upfront for the use of the name and a percentage of sales. You have to agree to their building design standards, their menu, and their training. That's assuming they've not already given someone exclusive rights to your region. If they haven't you still aren't in. You have to demonstrate you have enough resources to run the place right and not go under after the first set-back because they don't like their brand being damaged by failed locations. You have to show the area you want to be in is viable. You have to pass their background check and reference check. Get through that and they might come to the conclusion that you don't have temperament, personality or skills to be their franchise holder.

That's free market at work.

The NCAA is a breeze in comparison. Show us you can afford the number of sports and required scholarships. Prove to us you can fill out a schedule that is consistent with being FBS.

Yeah Army, Navy, Notre Dame, and BYU are making it as independents, except Navy is joining a conference in 2015, Notre Dame has secured a conference in sports other than football and has flirted with joining the Big 10, ACC, and reportedly the Big XII at times. BYU negotiated with the Big East and found they had a better deal as an independent after decades of conference membership. Army was in CUSA and left because they could do better scheduling and make their own TV deal as an independent.

Every current independent has a national or quasi-national TV deal. Every current independent has been ranked within the lifetime of players on their team. Each has been to a bowl recently. Three of the four have been proclaimed national champion at least once (Navy the exception).

Looking at the last two years, the worst drawing of the four drew better attendance than anyone in FCS, II, or III. The worst drawing drew better than the conference average of four or five conferences.

Each of the four became FBS before the current standards or the standards they replaced or the ones they replaced were adopted.

From 1986 to 1995 we saw FBS lose four schools. That pace isn't really out of line with history. What has happened since has been toughening of the standards (except for "bona fide invite") has been three schools have completed the move up. Four more complete the move this year. Three more are set to move and complete the process by at least 2015.

Tougher standards have resulted in bringing an end to someone dropping football at the NCAA's top level roughly every few years because the standards demand that you be committed to funding football and playing at least a semi-responsible schedule. A friend, currently an executive in pro sports, who was working at Arkansas State when the changes were being debated called them the "save us from ourself rules". People predicted that as many as 20 schools would go under. None have moved down and more have moved up because an AD under the screws from the president to get the budget under control can't fix it quickly by only playing three home games. While it wasn't common to see teams play three home games, it wasn't un-heard of either. Now to survive you only have a few dates to sell (if you aren't an independent you have no more than four, really three because you have to have five at home and have your league slate to deal with). The rules basically put you in a boat of having nine games you have a shot at being competitive in, 8 league and one non-conference at home. You have to make your money selling tickets, raising donations or finding a way to get the school to chip in. You can't just sell your team off and then when the losses mount driving down attendance go and find even more money games on the road.

Net result, kids sign with a school with little fear that the program will go away before they finish four years there. Teams schedule with confidence knowing that there is little chance of getting a call in December and being told their opponent for the second week in September no longer plays football. Contrast that with FCS where 9 programs have dropped out in the last decade.
05-22-2012 10:23 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #68
RE: Why is it taking so long
(05-22-2012 08:58 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  
(05-22-2012 08:53 PM)panama Wrote:  Because Notre Dame and Navy are Notre Dame and Navy. They have built in fanbases of 50 to 100 million people. There is no comparison you can make to the current independents. In fact other than BYU maybe the only other school that go independent successfully is Texas

If this is truly a free market system, why not allow a group of willing and able schools to form a new conference?

They can.

If Arkansas State, Louisiana, North Texas, UTSA, Tulsa, UTEP, New Mexico, and Tulane woke up one day and said let's all go create a new conference they can do so.

If Central Arkansas, Sam Houston, Missouri State, SEMO, McNeese, Lamar, NW State, and Stephen F Austin want to form a new league they are free to do so. What they aren't free to do is sprinkle magic dust on themselves and declare they are magically FBS because they cannot meet the standards to move up, namely showing that they have 8 FBS opponents and 4 of their 5 home games will be against FBS teams and in the case of at least some of them, can't meet the attendance requirement.

Yet of that list, at least a few of them would get a really hard look.

Also remember that a number of schools have been given a hard look or even been told that if they were willing to move they had a home. In the past decade I know Montana, Montana State, Sacramento State, Cal-Davis, Portland State, Lamar, Missouri State, App, Georgia Southern, and Chattanooga have all been contacted at least once and asked if they were interested in moving and if they could do so by a certain date that their application would be favorably viewed.

If you tell opportunity no, don't complain if it doesn't knock again.
05-22-2012 10:56 PM
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dahbeed Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Why is it taking so long
(05-22-2012 10:23 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  You cannot open any business you want.

You cannot provide medical treatment to people unless you are licensed to do that type of treatment.
You cannot provide accounting services and call yourself a CPA unless you have met the qualifications.
You cannot provide surveying services unless you have complied with the registration system of your state.
You cannot provide legal services unless you have completed the requirements to be licensed.

Let's do something simpler. Let's open a restaurant.

You want to open a restaurant? You have to have a business license. You have to have a retail sales tax permit. You have to have Department of Health permit. Your business location has to comply with local zoning law. In most places you have to get a permit for the sign you want out by the road. You have to comply with local fire laws and comply with disability access to get occupancy permit for your business.

You look around a realize that them Red Lobster people have a great thing going, so why not open a Red Lobster? To get the Red Lobster name you have to pay them upfront for the use of the name and a percentage of sales. You have to agree to their building design standards, their menu, and their training. That's assuming they've not already given someone exclusive rights to your region. If they haven't you still aren't in. You have to demonstrate you have enough resources to run the place right and not go under after the first set-back because they don't like their brand being damaged by failed locations. You have to show the area you want to be in is viable. You have to pass their background check and reference check. Get through that and they might come to the conclusion that you don't have temperament, personality or skills to be their franchise holder.

That's free market at work.

The NCAA is a breeze in comparison. Show us you can afford the number of sports and required scholarships. Prove to us you can fill out a schedule that is consistent with being FBS.

Yeah Army, Navy, Notre Dame, and BYU are making it as independents, except Navy is joining a conference in 2015, Notre Dame has secured a conference in sports other than football and has flirted with joining the Big 10, ACC, and reportedly the Big XII at times. BYU negotiated with the Big East and found they had a better deal as an independent after decades of conference membership. Army was in CUSA and left because they could do better scheduling and make their own TV deal as an independent.

Every current independent has a national or quasi-national TV deal. Every current independent has been ranked within the lifetime of players on their team. Each has been to a bowl recently. Three of the four have been proclaimed national champion at least once (Navy the exception).

Looking at the last two years, the worst drawing of the four drew better attendance than anyone in FCS, II, or III. The worst drawing drew better than the conference average of four or five conferences.

Each of the four became FBS before the current standards or the standards they replaced or the ones they replaced were adopted.

From 1986 to 1995 we saw FBS lose four schools. That pace isn't really out of line with history. What has happened since has been toughening of the standards (except for "bona fide invite") has been three schools have completed the move up. Four more complete the move this year. Three more are set to move and complete the process by at least 2015.

Tougher standards have resulted in bringing an end to someone dropping football at the NCAA's top level roughly every few years because the standards demand that you be committed to funding football and playing at least a semi-responsible schedule. A friend, currently an executive in pro sports, who was working at Arkansas State when the changes were being debated called them the "save us from ourself rules". People predicted that as many as 20 schools would go under. None have moved down and more have moved up because an AD under the screws from the president to get the budget under control can't fix it quickly by only playing three home games. While it wasn't common to see teams play three home games, it wasn't un-heard of either. Now to survive you only have a few dates to sell (if you aren't an independent you have no more than four, really three because you have to have five at home and have your league slate to deal with). The rules basically put you in a boat of having nine games you have a shot at being competitive in, 8 league and one non-conference at home. You have to make your money selling tickets, raising donations or finding a way to get the school to chip in. You can't just sell your team off and then when the losses mount driving down attendance go and find even more money games on the road.

Net result, kids sign with a school with little fear that the program will go away before they finish four years there. Teams schedule with confidence knowing that there is little chance of getting a call in December and being told their opponent for the second week in September no longer plays football. Contrast that with FCS where 9 programs have dropped out in the last decade.


could you explain the jp morgan fiasco for me?
05-23-2012 07:59 AM
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Panthersville Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Why is it taking so long
(05-22-2012 08:45 PM)Glassonion Wrote:  And skipping to your last sentence, because Im not reading all of that,

Nobody wants to force a conference to accept anyone. I sure as hell dont want to be in a conference that doesnt want us, but the ability to create another conference, and compete in the market is a right.

The NCAA IS the college football market, it is a legal monopoly, just like many that the States and Federal government dole out, but the government is not regulating it as it does those other types of monopolies. And that will change, just a matter of time.

Why am I not surprised that you are too intellectually lazy to read a few paragraphs (that were purposefully simplified just for you)?

Hold on......I'm looking over my pocket Constitution.....nope, can't find where it says that the ability to compete in the college football marketplace is a "right". Maybe the founders just forgot about that, so I'll check my Bastiat and Paine......nope, they didn't seem to cover it either.

The NCAA does not sell College Football, the conferences do. The conferences have denied the NCAA the power to (1) establish a FBS playoff, (2) determine conference membership, and (3) negotiate for football TV rights - the three biggest issues in the game today. So how exactly is the NCAA a monopolistic power in this market?
05-23-2012 08:11 AM
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Tuscon Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Why is it taking so long
Holy crap, how has football not started yet?
05-23-2012 08:18 AM
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chrisattsu Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Why is it taking so long
(05-23-2012 08:18 AM)Tuscon Wrote:  Holy crap, how has football not started yet?

99 Days...
05-23-2012 08:21 AM
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Panthersville Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Why is it taking so long
(05-22-2012 08:48 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  You are making the argument that the NCAA is a good example of a free market enterprise which it is far from.

"It is true that in the free market you can go out on your own, however if you go out on your own with a product nobody wants to buy, you will fail. In the NCAA market, programs are the products and conferences are the buyers."

Terrible analogy. Conferences are not the consumer of college football, they are the middle man that you are forced to go through. The general public is the consumer of college football.

Actually, I never said the NCAA is a free market enterprise - it is a regulatory body that exists solely at the discretion of its member institutions. Those institutions clearly exist in a free market, and do not have to be NCAA members, however they almost all do because the benefits of membership outweigh the burden of membership (a classic free-market decision process).

I never said Conferences were the consumers of college football - I said they were the consumers of programs looking for a conference home. The fact that there are significant barriers to entry in a market does not mean that it is not a free market. As was pointed out above, you cannot be a Doctor, Lawyer, CPS, electrician, etc. without proving that you have the ability to perform as required by a regulatory body.

Of course the general public is the consumer of the actual entertainment product of college football - and they consume that product in a free market. There are abundant options for them to choose from, and they makes the choice of which product they want to consume, and which mode of consumption they want to utilize (in-person or TV). However, just because you want to sell a certain product does not mean that you will be successful in doing so. You may have a great product, but if you can't convince a distributor to put it in stores, you are going to have a problem. This is the exact situation here - you think you have a great product, but no distributor (conference) thinks it is good enough to be worth their while in adding it to their product offering.
05-23-2012 08:24 AM
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