Tigum:

A link for you. Jake Crouthamel's take on the BE thing (two parts-look for the link to Part two)

<a href='http://www.suathletics.com/sports/gen/2001/history.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.suathletics.com/sports/gen/2001/history.asp</a>

Quote:Besides, to go the route supposed the league needs two more teams. Who is there- ECU and UMass? The BE's claim to fame was that it was built to take advantage of the media money. Stop trying to make the BE the new improved CUSA so quickly.

-- Really the new all sports league would need only one new member so a balanced football schedule would be possible (4 home games, 4 away games)

-- The thing that worries me the most about the 16 team format is football stability...what we need to be able to do is expand without intereference (reasons for expansion could include to balance the schedule, open new markets or just being able to add the next non BCS football power that arises east of the missisippi)....the point I'm trying to make is that under the current conditions such expansion is impossible because of the bball onlys demand for a voting balance in the league

Quote:As for money- read the submissions form the schools- football may get more net dollars but it eats it all up and then some. As for the BCS money- 14 million less the 2 or 3 in costs divided among a league (in the BE the lions share goes to the entrant). I'll bet SU, UConn and L'ville all put more fans in for b'ball in a season then f'ball, and, without looking into it- so do all most of the others

-- I can't speak for other schools...but I think WVUs profit was between 6 and 7 million dollars last year...the men's hoops team made was about 1 million in the black and the football team payed for itself and all the other olympic sports and made a 5 -6 million dollar profit on top of that

-- Louisville and Uconn's football programs haven't reached full maturity yet (especially Uconn)...I know both schools have already discussed expansion for the football staduims etc....give each schools 10 yrs in a BCS league and they will be playing in front of 60,000 plus every saturday

Quote:The issue is the competitiveness of private v public schools not football/nonfootball.

-- I'm not sure why this is an issue when 7 out of the 8 BE football schools are public universities....the crisis seems to be on the small Catholic school side of the conference...not on ours


Jackson

Quote:If the ACC had gotten SU and not VT the situation would be much better for the new league- it would be for more homogeneous and better in f'ball.

And the new league would probably be an all-sports C-USA, not the BE. Had the original ACC expansion plan taken place, the BE would now be bb-only schools with possibly UConn and RU either downgrading in football or going the indy route with Army and Navy. And C-USA would look like something like this:

VT, WVU, Pitt, UL, UC, Memphis, ECU, USF, UCF, So. Miss, UAB, and Tulane.

Cheers,
Neil

How do you see the Big East Football schools in 2010?

omnicarrier Wrote:

Quote:If the ACC had gotten SU and not VT the situation would be much better for the new league- it would be for more homogeneous and better in f'ball.

And the new league would probably be an all-sports C-USA, not the BE. Had the original ACC expansion plan taken place, the BE would now be bb-only schools with possibly UConn and RU either downgrading in football or going the indy route with Army and Navy. And C-USA would look like something like this:

VT, WVU, Pitt, UL, UC, Memphis, ECU, USF, UCF, So. Miss, UAB, and Tulane.

Cheers,
Neil

Even though the situation is better with Syracuse in it, wouldn't the league basically be the same as it is now except with Virginia Tech replacing Syracuse in the All-Sports section? Because I seriously doubt that UConn and Rutgers would have downgraded, and having Virginia Tech would have made a stronger case for the Big East keeping its BCS bid. If Miami, Syracuse and Boston College had went the league would have likely looked like this:

Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Pittsburgh
Connecticut
Louisville
Cincinnati
Rutgers
East Carolina possibly since VT supported their inclusion, likely South Florida though. And it might have been easier to have a split since Notre Dame might have pulled out, though it would have hurt bowl affiliations.

This league would have absolutely no identity left if Syracuse were to go in place of VPI. It would really just be a hodge podge of a few mid-atlantic/northeast/southeast teams that weren't good enough to be in the other more prestigious BCS conferences in their footprint.

At least now we still retain the title as the major Northeastern conference. Although I figure we would've kept the BCS bid regardless (would have been able to make a stronger case too with Tech's success this year), Syracuse staying will be better for the long haul.

Quote:Even though the situation is better with Syracuse in it, wouldn't the league basically be the same as it is now except with Virginia Tech replacing Syracuse in the All-Sports section?

No. Remember the bb-onlies were working with the football schools after Miami and VT were taken because SU and BC were still in the mix. Lose Miami, SU, and BC in June of 2003 and the bb-schools only incentive for keeping the football schools and not wanting the split themselves would be original member UConn.

This would have put C-USA in the driver's seat when Tranghese and Brankowsky met to sort out the remaining mess. More all-sports teams in C-USA and more bb-schools in the BE.

The BE's BCS bid would have transferred to a 12-team all sports league headed by VT, Pitt, WVU, UL and Memphis. It actually would have been a better league than the BE as currently formatted. And there was a good chance UConn might have been kept out of the BCS mix entirely.

UConn knew this. It is why they fought so hard to fight ACC expansion.

Cheers,
Neil

Quote:The BE's BCS bid would have transferred to a 12-team all sports league headed by VT, Pitt, WVU, UL and Memphis. It actually would have been a better league than the BE as currently formatted. And there was a good chance UConn might have been kept out of the BCS mix entirely.

Actually, in that scenario, I'd say Rutgers might the odd school out. At least UConn could leverage it's powerful basketball program as an asset.

Then again, even if UConn did make the cut, they'd be so far removed from the rest of the league geographically that Pitt (Western PA) would be the closest conference opponent.

Jake's gone- thank god. He was part of the problem with BE stability over the years. He has no value for b'ball- actually stated that to have a great program is easy while f'ball requires talent. His goal from the beginning was to get SU into a football first league. One always had to wonder what jake was up to. The one thing that strikes me about his version of the fact is the pride he takes in manipulating the other schools.

I guess, as a rather older alum of an old BE school- I have a BE bias. I think the CUSA teams will be in for a bit of a surprise when they enter the league. I recall the quote from Petino who has experienced the BE and the SEC- that CUSA was "a god awful conference." CUSA teams will have to step it up in B'ball. Remember the words Providence, Villanova and Seton Hall next year. In f'ball- Miami and VT lead the ACC and, in b'ball- their teams will surprise. As to non-football schools competing in B'ball- seems to me Marquette did well representing CUSA last year. My main point- I'd hate to see the BE turned into a new CUSA. The New BE schools have made a commitment to upgrading. They need the time.

As for SU- they're the odd man in this equation- they are a small private school and are geographically isolated (save UConn). Private schools do not do well in mixed f'ball conferences- think Duke, Wake, Stanford, NW, Vandy, ect. Also, schools do not do well being geographically isolated- look at PSU. The league needs L'ville, UC, WVir and/or Pitt to step it up and give their SEC and Big 10 counterparts a run for their money. (UConn is too new and Rutgers is, well, Rutgers) My point- it will take time and the current BE will give an incubation period that should be taken advantage of. Until a f'ball league can honestly consider itself a rival of the Big 10 or SEC it should not be born as those two leagues are its competition. Until then- stay a NE league.

tigum Wrote:Jake's gone- thank god. He was part of the problem with BE stability over the years. He has no value for b'ball- actually stated that to have a great program is easy while f'ball requires talent. His goal from the beginning was to get SU into a football first league. One always had to wonder what jake was up to. The one thing that strikes me about his version of the fact is the pride he takes in manipulating the other schools.

I guess, as a rather older alum of an old BE school- I have a BE bias. I think the CUSA teams will be in for a bit of a surprise when they enter the league. I recall the quote from Petino who has experienced the BE and the SEC- that CUSA was "a god awful conference." CUSA teams will have to step it up in B'ball. Remember the words Providence, Villanova and Seton Hall next year. In f'ball- Miami and VT lead the ACC and, in b'ball- their teams will surprise. As to non-football schools competing in B'ball- seems to me Marquette did well representing CUSA last year. My main point- I'd hate to see the BE turned into a new CUSA. The New BE schools have made a commitment to upgrading. They need the time.

As for SU- they're the odd man in this equation- they are a small private school and are geographically isolated (save UConn). Private schools do not do well in mixed f'ball conferences- think Duke, Wake, Stanford, NW, Vandy, ect. Also, schools do not do well being geographically isolated- look at PSU. The league needs L'ville, UC, WVir and/or Pitt to step it up and give their SEC and Big 10 counterparts a run for their money. (UConn is too new and Rutgers is, well, Rutgers) My point- it will take time and the current BE will give an incubation period that should be taken advantage of. Until a f'ball league can honestly consider itself a rival of the Big 10 or SEC it should not be born as those two leagues are its competition. Until then- stay a NE league.

Pitino was talking about C-USA Football not basketball. I think some of the Big East powers will be surprised when they face Louisville, Cincinnati and Marquette.

Thats not how I recall the quote in contexed but if he was able to spin it to a football only quote- good for him. I think he was talking about the league as an institution and some of the facilities. But only he knows. In my extremely biased view- at first L'ville will run about 4th, Cinn about midling and Marquette in the second division. Depaul and the fla school will be struggling with St Johns. Petino will recruit like a true madman once they are in the BE and the program will rise quickly. Truely- there will be no bad teams in the new league- every night will be a battle like the L'ville/UC game today. A road win will be scarce and defense will become a true necessity.

The past two years you can argue that he had the Top 2 Basketball recruiting classes. In 2004 he signed Brian Johnson, Sebastian Telfair, Donte Smith, Lorenzo Wade and Tello Palacios. But Telfair and Smith are now in the NBA and Brian Johnson out for the year with a knee injury. This year according to Van Coleman and Hoop Scoop he signed the Nations number 1 class. So he is already recruiting like a madman.

You seem to forget C-USA sent 6 teams to the NCAA Tournament in 2004 and 4 in 2003 with Marquette making the Final Four. Any conference that has Tom Crean, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Bobby Lutz, Mike Anderson and Larry Eustachy is not Gawd-Awful. A Gawd-Awful conference doesn't send that many teams. He was talking about the football side in which he was right.

BTW I doubt Marquette will be second division because they also signed a Top 5-10 Recruiting class this year as well and Crean is a darn good coach.

Quote:The BE's BCS bid would have transferred to a 12-team all sports league headed by VT, Pitt, WVU, UL and Memphis. It actually would have been a better league than the BE as currently formatted. And there was a good chance UConn might have been kept out of the BCS mix entirely.

-- Its hard for me to imagine the all sports league would just dump Uconn and all of its football potential....I think a more likely scenario would have been that Uconn/rutgers would have just been seen has travel parterns in a new southern/mid-atlantic conference...also if VT is still in the league...ECU gets in without a problem

new league (?)
Pitt
VT
WVU
Louisville
Uconn
rutgers
UC
East Carolina
USF
UCF
Memphis
Southern Miss

Quote:My point- it will take time and the current BE will give an incubation period that should be taken advantage of. Until a f'ball league can honestly consider itself a rival of the Big 10 or SEC it should not be born as those two leagues are its competition. Until then- stay a NE league.

-- I agree that the football side needs time to develop before it goes out on its on..and I think the 5 yr window fits pefectly...but the BE football schools are never going to be the equal of the SEC or Big 10...we could add PEnn st and ND and I still don't think we would be up to par with those two conferences....however...I do think if we wait a few years and get back on our feet...then add the one or two of the best CUSA east programs we do have a shot to equal or surpass the Pac 10 in a relativly short amound of time


Jackson

Quote:-- Its hard for me to imagine the all sports league would just dump Uconn and all of its football potential....I think a more likely scenario would have been that Uconn/rutgers would have just been seen has travel parterns in a new southern/mid-atlantic conference...also if VT is still in the league...ECU gets in without a problem

That may be because you are looking at this from a BE perspective.

Again, with SU, BC, UConn, and Pitt Mikey T (who everyone knows favors Providence and the bb-schools in his heart) and the bb-schools were able to convince SU and UConn that the 16-team format suggested by Gavitt was the way to go.

Without SU and BC, that would have left it UConn, Pitt, WVU, and VT. Let's face it, both the football schools on the one side and Mikey T and the bb-schools on the other side would have been more likely wanted to split.

Enter Brankowsky and C-USA, more in a position of power now since VT and WVU (the two best remaining BE football programs) have always felt out of place in the BE and dreamed of joining the ACC or the SEC. How hard do you think it would have been to convince them to join with UL, UC, and Memphis in the C-USA? How hard do you think the bb-schools would have fought to keep VT and WVU around? Keep in mind, it's easier to reshuffle existing conferences than it is to create brand new ones.

In that most likely of scenarios, RU is a big loser (unless the Big 10 comes calling) and an unproven, untested UConn (remember this is summer of 2003 and the Rent hadn't even played its first game yet) would make no sense geographically for C-USA.

Cheers,
Neil

Quote:BTW I doubt Marquette will be second division because they also signed a Top 5-10 Recruiting class this year as well and Crean is a darn good coach.

All of the incoming C-USA teams, with the exception of Louisville, will likely be second division in their first year in the Big East.

Cincinnati's style of play will adapt the most quickly after that. Huggins just needs to get better guard play to compete in 2006-07 and beyond.

Marquette's soft style will have the most trouble adapting. They play like ND, but with not as much talent. It's a style that can win, but Crean will be losing Diener (his toughest player, the one who is most BE-like) so I don't have much hope for the Warriors (..err Golden Eagles) competing for the upper division their first year.

As I see it, UConn, SU, Pitt, ND, UL, and Nova (no particular order with those six, just listed as I thought of them) will all be better than UC, DePaul, and Marquette next year. Georgetown, WVU, Seton Hall, and St. John's will be as good if not better.

Cheers,
Neil

omnicarrier Wrote:

Quote:BTW I doubt Marquette will be second division because they also signed a Top 5-10 Recruiting class this year as well and Crean is a darn good coach.

All of the incoming C-USA teams, with the exception of Louisville, will likely be second division in their first year in the Big East.

Cincinnati's style of play will adapt the most quickly after that. Huggins just needs to get better guard play to compete in 2006-07 and beyond.

Marquette's soft style will have the most trouble adapting. They play like ND, but with not as much talent. It's a style that can win, but Crean will be losing Diener (his toughest player, the one who is most BE-like) so I don't have much hope for the Warriors (..err Golden Eagles) competing for the upper division their first year.

As I see it, UConn, SU, Pitt, ND, UL, and Nova (no particular order with those six, just listed as I thought of them) will all be better than UC, DePaul, and Marquette next year. Georgetown, WVU, Seton Hall, and St. John's will be as good if not better.

Cheers,
Neil

Man you guys really don't know much about the incoming basketball teams. UC will be returning 4 of their top 5 scorers-(Maxiell is a SR.) Marquette loses Diener but they had a very good recruiting class and they return their other guard in Mason. DePaul and USF will be at the bottom of the Big East. I also find it strange you would call a team coached by Crean who learned from the knee of Tom Izzo soft.

The Top 6 in no particular order-(Louisville, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, UConn and Marquette) I will take Crean over Wright EVERYDAY of the week.

Well- in a year or so we'll know won't we- I watch alot of B'ball- am not impressed with the defensive effort of either L'ville or UC. Plus- different leagues have different styles- BE b'ball is defense oriented- refs are a bit inconsistent but generally allow alot more than other conferences. I know you're opinion is as biased as mine but L'ville on top of the last two national champs in their first year- oh well- time will tell.

Quote:Man you guys really don't know much about the incoming basketball teams. UC will be returning 4 of their top 5 scorers-(Maxiell is a SR.) Marquette loses Diener but they had a very good recruiting class and they return their other guard in Mason. DePaul and USF will be at the bottom of the Big East. I also find it strange you would call a team coached by Crean who learned from the knee of Tom Izzo soft.

Man, you don't know much about basketball if you think any recruiting class in a league as tough as the BE will turn a team into a major contender in their freshmen year.

Cincinnati loses both Maxiell and Nick Williams, their two best players. And they had a less than stellar class this year.

Marquette plays soft. Crean went for some beef this year in Amoroso, Barro, and Kinsella specifically because he knew he'd need to get stronger and tougher for the BE. But only Amoroso has the potential to be good of those three. The other two are space-eaters.

Diener is averaging something like 6.5 assists. After him, no one on the team is averaging 2 assists a game. Again, if you don't think there will be a big learning curve for them coming into the Big East, you don't know much about the league.

Quote:The Top 6 in no particular order-(Louisville, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, UConn and Marquette) I will take Crean over Wright EVERYDAY of the week.

I would take Crean over Wright any day as well. But they don't play the games themselves. And Wright will have a senior-laden team with Lowry, Sheridan, and Anderson as seasoned bench help.

I'll definitely take a healthy Nova team over a healthy Marquette team next year in a heartbeat.

Also, you left ND off your list of top six. They lose Chris Thomas, which may very well be addition by subtraction, had a good class this year, and an even better class next year to add to Francis, Quinn, Latimore, and Falls.

Cheers,
Neil

tigum Wrote:Well- in a year or so we'll know won't we- I watch alot of B'ball- am not impressed with the defensive effort of either L'ville or UC. Plus- different leagues have different styles- BE b'ball is defense oriented- refs are a bit inconsistent but generally allow alot more than other conferences. I know you're opinion is as biased as mine but L'ville on top of the last two national champs in their first year- oh well- time will tell.

First I never said Louisville over Syracuse or UConn. I do feel they will be in the mix for the Big East title. Our advantage is we do have a coach that is familar with Big East basketball.

Our style is more speed oriented and we want to get out on the break. Big East basketball is all power in the paint and both UL and UC should be able to more then hold their own. Louisville will have Brian Johnson, Tello Palacios and David Padgett on the frontline next year and that is as much beef as anyone in the conference now.

omnicarrier Wrote:

Quote:Man you guys really don't know much about the incoming basketball teams. UC will be returning 4 of their top 5 scorers-(Maxiell is a SR.) Marquette loses Diener but they had a very good recruiting class and they return their other guard in Mason. DePaul and USF will be at the bottom of the Big East. I also find it strange you would call a team coached by Crean who learned from the knee of Tom Izzo soft.

Man, you don't know much about basketball if you think any recruiting class in a league as tough as the BE will turn a team into a major contender in their freshmen year.

Cincinnati loses both Maxiell and Nick Williams, their two best players. And they had a less than stellar class this year.

Marquette plays soft. Crean went for some beef this year in Amoroso, Barro, and Kinsella specifically because he knew he'd need to get stronger and tougher for the BE. But only Amoroso has the potential to be good of those three. The other two are space-eaters.

Diener is averaging something like 6.5 assists. After him, no one on the team is averaging 2 assists a game. Again, if you don't think there will be a big learning curve for them coming into the Big East, you don't know much about the league.

Quote:The Top 6 in no particular order-(Louisville, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, UConn and Marquette) I will take Crean over Wright EVERYDAY of the week.

I would take Crean over Wright any day as well. But they don't play the games themselves. And Wright will have a senior-laden team with Lowry, Sheridan, and Anderson as seasoned bench help.

I'll definitely take a healthy Nova team over a healthy Marquette team next year in a heartbeat.

Also, you left ND off your list of top six. They lose Chris Thomas, which may very well be addition by subtraction, had a good class this year, and an even better class next year to add to Francis, Quinn, Latimore, and Falls.

Cheers,
Neil

I will just say this, I doubt UC, UL and Marquette will bow down to any Big East school. We do have to go to your sites but you do have to go to The Shoe, Freedom Hall and the Bradley Center and those are not easy sites.

UC does return Hicks, Kirkland and Muhammad, do not underestimate Bob Huggins. They are better then ND and the Irish will find out soon enough.