Very good article, talking about the lack of coaching in the ACC.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/01...owled.html

Quote:Coaching turnover has been common in the ACC dating to the late 1990s but seems to be more of an issue now than ever.

"That's a big part of it (the lack of success)," said ESPN analyst Lou Holtz. "The ACC is sort of a build-up league. Coaches build their programs as they go along, and that usually requires a lot of continuity."

Same thing in basketball.

I don't see anything changing much for the better either. Paul Johnson is no worst than one of the best 3 coaches in the conference, and the Sun Bowl and last two losses to UGAg have *seriously* hurt his former invincibility as head coach.

Noteworthy ACC Coaches in the '90s:

Bobby Bowden
Bobby Ross
George Welch
Dick Sheridan
Steve Spurrier (for a minute, and won an ACC title, too)

Noteworthy ACC Coaches in the 2010s:

Frank Beamer

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The fact that Jim Grobe led LOWF (Lowly ol' Wake Forest) to an ACC title speaks volumes to the lack of coaching quality in the league now. Back in the 90s, he'd been fortunate to lead LOWF to anything above 5th place in the ol' 9-school league.

In fact, before the league expanded, one could tell the leagues coaches were starting to lack in quality, likely an effect of the SEC's making mad coin.

When it expanded, we had an ACC Atlantic division that was ripe for Wake Forest to win. Same with BC when they joined. It was pretty easy to outcoach Chuck Amato, Ralph Friedgen, Bobby Bowden (who was past his prime), and Tommy Bowden (who had NO BUSINESS on an ACC sideline as a head coach).

On the Coastal side, Welch was gone from UVA, UNC had just started the John Bunting era (yet another coach who had NO BUSINESS on an ACC sideline), Larry Coker was coaching coasting on the success of Butch Davis 1.0, and in the interest of helping Swagger fully recover, I won't mention what GT was doing. Suffice to say, Frank Beamer could trip out of the bed each season and win the Coastal. Sad thing is, that fact is STILL true.

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When the SEC started making boat loads of money, that's when the ACC's "coaching" drain took complete root and now the tree is starting to produce leaves daily.

And if anyone has noticed, the same effect has happened in basketball. At some point, Coach K is going to retire, and it's going to further expose the ACC's lack of coaching depth.

There are good points in there. The football coaches in the ACC have been quite unstable over the last while, thus resulting in poor performances on the field. In some ways it will take a football coach who is successful at an ACC school and decides to stay there to break the cycle.
Hopefully Syracuse will be able to revive the football program when it joins the ACC. It will take time though as the talent on the football team is lacking a bit.

I noticed the basketball side of the ACC is very similar in that outside of Duke and North Carolina there are no consistent powerhouse programs.
That should change when Syracuse and Pittsburgh join. At Syracuse, when Jim Boeheim retires assistant coach Mike Hopkins will take over. He already is integral in recruiting and teaching so I have no doubt that Syracuse basketball will remain among the elite.

If you look at the NFL there are maybe 8-10(?) really good teams. If a new team pops up another disappears. The 49ers were the team of the 90s but didn't do much in the 2000s. It's like a giant wack-a-mole game. College football may have a few more "really good" teams. That is due to the sheer number of schools.

The NFL doesn't have the restrictions of academics, recruiting, NCAA rules, etc. Yet they can only put together 10 or so teams. It would seem there are only enough players and coaches to support a limited number of teams.

So how doe you bump one of the existing "really good" schools? The easy answer is to cheat. Some schools do that. I prefer the Florida State method. You find a really good coach. You keep him. You change the game. FSU didn't recruit a bunch of buildings and run student body left plays. They recruited speed. Went anywhere, played anybody. They ran a catch-me-if-you-can offense.

ACC fans are more than willing to become football fans. I agree that the coaching turnover kills the ACC, and a lot is self-imposed. I do believe that Carolina could have become competitive on a yearly basis if Butch Davis hadn't done exactly what was expected of him and bring a scandal to town. Shannon at Miami got chased out despite significantly raising the team's graduation rates and stabilizing its downward trend under Coker. Friedgen was ACC COTY when he was fired. I think Duke has finally found a coach that can build a program, but whether they stick with him will be the biggest difference maker (I'll bet they pull the rug from under him). Spurrier showed that even Duke could win ACC titles (which 1) speaks to him as a coach, and 2) demonstrates that winning can come to anyone) , and Mack Brown did the same at UNC. One thing the ACC needs to do is to stop losing in-state talent to SEC schools. NC, SC, VA, MD all have talent coming out of them, but going to the likes of UGa, Bama, and SC. Grobe and Beamer have both had success grooming their in-state 3-star prospects into solid teams, but as we've seen, when lined up against the dominant teams, get run over by their 4 and 5-star loaded teams.

Thats just the reasons off the top of my head.

(01-07-2012 07:01 PM)T-Monay820 Wrote:  ACC fans are more than willing to become football fans. I agree that the coaching turnover kills the ACC, and a lot is self-imposed. I do believe that Carolina could have become competitive on a yearly basis if Butch Davis hadn't done exactly what was expected of him and bring a scandal to town. Shannon at Miami got chased out despite significantly raising the team's graduation rates and stabilizing its downward trend under Coker. Friedgen was ACC COTY when he was fired. I think Duke has finally found a coach that can build a program, but whether they stick with him will be the biggest difference maker (I'll bet they pull the rug from under him). Spurrier showed that even Duke could win ACC titles (which 1) speaks to him as a coach, and 2) demonstrates that winning can come to anyone) , and Mack Brown did the same at UNC. One thing the ACC needs to do is to stop losing in-state talent to SEC schools. NC, SC, VA, MD all have talent coming out of them, but going to the likes of UGa, Bama, and SC. Grobe and Beamer have both had success grooming their in-state 3-star prospects into solid teams, but as we've seen, when lined up against the dominant teams, get run over by their 4 and 5-star loaded teams.

Thats just the reasons off the top of my head.

I agree about keeping talent in state.

Syracuse the past two years has lost the top two players in New York, to Notre Dame. They're both at positions of need, too.

(01-06-2012 10:10 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  ....
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When the SEC started making boat loads of money, that's when the ACC's "coaching" drain took complete root and now the tree is starting to produce leaves daily.

And if anyone has noticed, the same effect has happened in basketball. At some point, Coach K is going to retire, and it's going to further expose the ACC's lack of coaching depth.

I agree but it's not because a lot of ACC coaches have done well and been poached by SEC teams. The only really good coach I can remember the ACC losing to another BCS conference team was Mack Brown going from UNC to Texas. But if Texas wants your football coach, there's not much you can do to keep him. Really, no ACC coach has done well enough to be worthy of poaching other than Beamer and fortunately he's dedicated enough to VT to take less money for him and his staff than they could get on the open market.

The Big East on the other hand, lost Rich Rod, Bobby Petrino, Mark Dantonio, and Butch Davis. Now that the BE is probably out of the picture from an AQ standpoint, I could see the ACC becoming the target of other BCS conference schools in need of a head coach. Hopefully the ACC will at least produce a product worth poaching before we lose coaches.

(01-07-2012 10:37 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(01-06-2012 10:10 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  ....
---------------

When the SEC started making boat loads of money, that's when the ACC's "coaching" drain took complete root and now the tree is starting to produce leaves daily.

And if anyone has noticed, the same effect has happened in basketball. At some point, Coach K is going to retire, and it's going to further expose the ACC's lack of coaching depth.

I agree but it's not because a lot of ACC coaches have done well and been poached by SEC teams. The only really good coach I can remember the ACC losing to another BCS conference team was Mack Brown going from UNC to Texas. But if Texas wants your football coach, there's not much you can do to keep him. Really, no ACC coach has done well enough to be worthy of poaching other than Beamer and fortunately he's dedicated enough to VT to take less money for him and his staff than they could get on the open market.

The Big East on the other hand, lost Rich Rod, Bobby Petrino, Mark Dantonio, and Butch Davis. Now that the BE is probably out of the picture from an AQ standpoint, I could see the ACC becoming the target of other BCS conference schools in need of a head coach. Hopefully the ACC will at least produce a product worth poaching before we lose coaches.

I really do not see the Automatic Qualifier go away for a few reasons. The Big East will not want it to go for one. The ACC and Pac-12 also would not want it to go away either. The other three conferences have more popular bigger name programs that would dominate all the BCS games thus resulting in the Big East, ACC and probably the Pac-12 having no representative in the BCS. This would be disasterous for the BCS as interest would be lost around the country as all schools and fans not in the Big XII, B1G and SEC know there is no chance they would get picked for a BCS game.

(01-10-2012 09:56 PM)tj_2009 Wrote:  I really do not see the Automatic Qualifier go away for a few reasons. The Big East will not want it to go for one. The ACC and Pac-12 also would not want it to go away either. The other three conferences have more popular bigger name programs that would dominate all the BCS games thus resulting in the Big East, ACC and probably the Pac-12 having no representative in the BCS. This would be disasterous for the BCS as interest would be lost around the country as all schools and fans not in the Big XII, B1G and SEC know there is no chance they would get picked for a BCS game.

I hope the AQs don't go away. Without AQs, the ACC will be shut out of being able to get a second BCS bowl bid. At least with the current system, we can get one occationally.

The ACC would keep it's Orange bowl tie in if AQs went away but all the other at large spots would become SEC, B1G, Pac-12 tie ins and the ACC would be shut out.

Hopefully, they promote the Cotton bowl to the BCS so that their will be more at large slots.

There is a look at the decline of ACC basketball coaches in another thread, so why not look at ACC football coaches in it's prime (25 years ago, in 1986), 10 years ago, and now...

University * Coach 1986 * Coach 2001 * Coaching now
======= ============== ==============
Clemson * Danny Ford * Tommy Bowden * Dabo Swinney
Florida State * Bobby Bowden * Bobby Bowden * Jimbo Fisher
Maryland * Bobby Ross * Ralph Friedgen * Randy Edsall
NC State * Dick Sheridan * Chuck Amato * Tom O'Brien
Wake Forest * Al Groh * Jim Grobe * Jim Grobe
Georgia Tech * Bill Curry * George O'Leary * Paul Johnson
Virginia * George Welsh * Al Groh * Mike London
North Carolina * Dick Crum * John Bunting * Larry Fedora (see note)
Duke * Steve Spurrier (87) * Carl Franks * David Cutcliffe

One guy from the original 9 teams is still coaching from 10 years ago - Jim Grobe (Frank Beamer would also make that list). So lack of stability is a problem.

As for quality, I'd sure take that 1986 list ahead of today's coaches! By the way, in 1986 Miami was coached by Jimmy Johnson and Boston College was coached by Jack Bicknell (who was followed by Tom Coughlin, now of the NY Giants). In fact, it's the NFL - not the SEC - which has drained ACC football coaches over the years (Bobby Ross, Jimmy Johnson, Tom Coughlin, Butch Davis, etc., etc.)

NOTE: UNC did have Mack Brown (88-97) and Butch Davis (07-10) during this span. Duke's coach in 86 was actually some dude named Sloan, if anyone cares.

(01-11-2012 11:43 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  There is a look at the decline of ACC basketball coaches in another thread, so why not look at ACC football coaches in it's prime (25 years ago, in 1986), 10 years ago, and now...

University * Coach 1986 * Coach 2001 * Coaching now
======= ============== ==============
Clemson * Danny Ford * Tommy Bowden * Dabo Swinney
Florida State * Bobby Bowden * Bobby Bowden * Jimbo Fisher
Maryland * Bobby Ross * Ralph Friedgen * Randy Edsall
NC State * Dick Sheridan * Chuck Amato * Tom O'Brien
Wake Forest * Al Groh * Jim Grobe * Jim Grobe
Georgia Tech * Bill Curry * George O'Leary * Paul Johnson
Virginia * George Welsh * Al Groh * Mike London
North Carolina * Dick Crum * John Bunting * Larry Fedora (see note)
Duke * Steve Spurrier (87) * Carl Franks * David Cutcliffe

One guy from the original 9 teams is still coaching from 10 years ago - Jim Grobe (Frank Beamer would also make that list). So lack of stability is a problem.

As for quality, I'd sure take that 1986 list ahead of today's coaches! By the way, in 1986 Miami was coached by Jimmy Johnson and Boston College was coached by Jack Bicknell (who was followed by Tom Coughlin, now of the NY Giants). In fact, it's the NFL - not the SEC - which has drained ACC football coaches over the years (Bobby Ross, Jimmy Johnson, Tom Coughlin, Butch Davis, etc., etc.)

NOTE: UNC did have Mack Brown (88-97) and Butch Davis (07-10) during this span. Duke's coach in 86 was actually some dude named Sloan, if anyone cares.

The Al Groh days at Wake were awful. So glad we have Jim Grobe!

(01-10-2012 11:39 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 09:56 PM)tj_2009 Wrote:  I really do not see the Automatic Qualifier go away for a few reasons. The Big East will not want it to go for one. The ACC and Pac-12 also would not want it to go away either. The other three conferences have more popular bigger name programs that would dominate all the BCS games thus resulting in the Big East, ACC and probably the Pac-12 having no representative in the BCS. This would be disasterous for the BCS as interest would be lost around the country as all schools and fans not in the Big XII, B1G and SEC know there is no chance they would get picked for a BCS game.

I hope the AQs don't go away. Without AQs, the ACC will be shut out of being able to get a second BCS bowl bid. At least with the current system, we can get one occationally.

The ACC would keep it's Orange bowl tie in if AQs went away but all the other at large spots would become SEC, B1G, Pac-12 tie ins and the ACC would be shut out.

Hopefully, they promote the Cotton bowl to the BCS so that their will be more at large slots.

I have to agree that if the ACC and Big East stand together on this they can force automatic qualifiers from each of these conferences to ensure that the ACC gets a representative and possibly a second one once in a while. I think the TV networks will agree with this too because the one thing the BCS is built around is advertising. There is no way the TV networks would exclude a conference like the ACC from any playoff because it would alienate the whole east coast if they know there is no chance (or very little chance) of ever making the playoffs. The ACC has too many people in its footprint for TV networks and advertisers to ignore.

Yet another reason why the ACC is getting bowled over:

NC schools can not keep their best talent within its borders:

Peoples' Exhibit A:
Tarboro H.S.'s Todd Gurley chooses Georgia

Key quote:

Quote:According to ESPN, the Gurley had narrowed his choices to the University of North Carolina, North Carolina State University, Georgia and Clemson.

Gurley acknowledged that Clemson had long been his dream, but said the Georgia "felt like home."

"I wanted to play against the best competition, and that would be the SEC of course," he added.

And yet another reasonThe 25 most expensive college football programs

#24 Clemson $17,992,943
#22 Florida State $18,689,809
#17 Virginia Tech $20,009,657

WVU has had their coach for dedades... o wait Michigan too

(01-15-2012 06:37 PM)Minutemen429 Wrote:  WVU has had their coach for dedades... o wait Michigan too

Yes, I don't think this is about coaching tenure. A bad coach who stays a long time is still bad. WVU and Michigan both have good new coaches, from what I'm seeing. For most ACC teams, head coach is not a strength - but it needs to be.

Beyond that, maybe the commissioner needs to do something, or else he should be held accountable for doing nothing.

(01-16-2012 08:48 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Beyond that, maybe the commissioner needs to do something, or else he should be held accountable for doing nothing.

Johnny will get on that as soon as he gets his marching orders from Chapel Hill.

I wouldn't hold my breath.