I posted this on another message board last week in response to something a fan with no understanding of the Big East posted. Since it concerns the Big East, though, it only makes sense to post it here too. I firmly believe that Penn State holds the key to the future of the Big East football schools. Luring away Penn State ends the threat of Big Ten expansion forever and greatly stabilizes this conference, even if South Florida has to be jettisoned in the process. Leaving one far-flung member behind is well worth it to achieve the dream of a geographically-sensible and nationally-respected conference.

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Mark it down now. The Big East football membership will not go to 12 teams when the split takes place. They are not the ACC, SEC, or B12. The football culture is different in the Northeast. A championship game would not work for that part of the country. Where would they hold it? Outdoors in December? It would look so big time on TV at Giants Stadium with 10,000 fans, huh? The Northeast focuses on professional sports (NFL, NBA, MLB) not college sports. It's been this way for decades. That's one of the reasons the Big East has issues now. The Big East football membership will go to 10 schools at most.

First of all, when the Big East football schools split they will threw EVERYTHING, including the kitchen sink, at Penn State in a last ditch desperation attempt to get the Nittany Lions to defect from the Big Ten and return home to the East Coast. The odds of them succeeding don't look good now, but let's wait to see what the college football landscape looks like in 2008 or 2009. Another factor is how well South Florida does over the next few years. If the Bulls are not pulling their weight in the league, look for the other seven football schools to leave them behind at the time of the split.

If Penn State can somehow be convinced to join, look for them to insist on bringing Temple along (fellow state university with a few close academic ties). That is also probably somewhat contingent on Temple improving, even marginally, in the MAC. Then again, if South Florida sucks over the next few years, why pay travel costs to fly down to Florida to administer an annual beating you could deliver much closer in Philadelphia for a fraction of the cost? Most experts can't see Penn State being in a football league with South Florida anyway, so the left behind scenario might have to happen no matter what.

OPTION A: SYRACUSE, CONNECTICUT, RUTGERS, PITT, WEST VIRGINIA, LOUISVILLE, CINCINNATI, PENN STATE, TEMPLE, and NOTRE DAME (everything except football).

But if Penn State can't be convinced to join, you still shouldn't look for the Big East to go after MAC teams. There's also the issue of South Florida being completely isolated from the league with no geographic rivals in sight. Therefore, look for Central Florida to be invited. Temple would be screwed again. Adding Central Florida, which is building a new on-campus stadium and a new on-campus basketball arena, would allow teams to knock off two conference games in one weekend trip down South. It's much more cost-efficient. This also depends on Central Florida getting better in football obviously.

OPTION B: SYRACUSE, CONNECTICUT, RUTGERS, PITT, WEST VIRGINIA, LOUISVILLE, CINCINNATI, SOUTH FLORIDA, CENTRAL FLORIDA, and NOTRE DAME (everything except football).

That's it. There are no other options except the remote possibility of East Carolina edging out Central Florida (or Massachusetts or Villanova moving up to NCAA Division I-A). Memphis, Southern Mississippi, and UAB are in the wrong time zone and the wrong part of the country. The Big East doesn't need to become CUSA North/East. And if the Big East wanted any MAC teams, they would've taken them already. Miami of Ohio barely averaged 15,000 fans a year after Ben Roethlisberger. Marshall duplicates West Virginia's market. Totally unnecessary. The Big East football schools will aim as high as possible.

As for the rest of your post, why would East Carolina leave CUSA to join the Sun Belt? They would still be isolated from the rest of the league. It's a lateral move offering no improvement at best. In addition, why would CUSA want three Louisiana teams? If they desired Louisiana Tech, they would've taken them instead of UTEP, which is thousands of miles away from everyone else, the last time. Louisiana Tech's situation is going to get worse, not better, in the next few years. Texas State is light years away from being able to move up. The MAC has already turned down YSU more than once.

In conclusion, the next realignment will not be as dramatic as people imagine. If the Big East lures Penn State (and Temple), the Big Ten will just stay at 10 again. Michigan and Ohio State rule that league, and they are VEHEMENTLY opposed to a title game anyway. A left behind South Florida would end up begging for CUSA readmission or joining the Sun Belt. But if Penn State tells the Big East no, look for CUSA to replace Central Florida with either North Texas (to the chagrin of the East Division) or New Mexico State (to the chagrin of UTEP despite the travel savings for the rest of the league). That's it.

That's pretty interesting. I wonder what Penn State thinks of playing in a conference with a Florida school. Either way, I still think South Florida isn't going anywhere.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:I posted this on another message board last week in response to something a fan with no understanding of the Big East posted. Since it concerns the Big East, though, it only makes sense to post it here too. I firmly believe that Penn State holds the key to the future of the Big East football schools. Luring away Penn State ends the threat of Big Ten expansion forever and greatly stabilizes this conference, even if South Florida has to be jettisoned in the process. Leaving one far-flung member behind is well worth it to achieve the dream of a geographically-sensible and nationally-respected conference.

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Mark it down now. The Big East football membership will not go to 12 teams when the split takes place. They are not the ACC, SEC, or B12. The football culture is different in the Northeast. A championship game would not work for that part of the country. Where would they hold it? Outdoors in December? It would look so big time on TV at Giants Stadium with 10,000 fans, huh? The Northeast focuses on professional sports (NFL, NBA, MLB) not college sports. It's been this way for decades. That's one of the reasons the Big East has issues now. The Big East football membership will go to 10 schools at most.

First of all, when the Big East football schools split they will threw EVERYTHING, including the kitchen sink, at Penn State in a last ditch desperation attempt to get the Nittany Lions to defect from the Big Ten and return home to the East Coast. The odds of them succeeding don't look good now, but let's wait to see what the college football landscape looks like in 2008 or 2009. Another factor is how well South Florida does over the next few years. If the Bulls are not pulling their weight in the league, look for the other seven football schools to leave them behind at the time of the split.

If Penn State can somehow be convinced to join, look for them to insist on bringing Temple along (fellow state university with a few close academic ties). That is also probably somewhat contingent on Temple improving, even marginally, in the MAC. Then again, if South Florida sucks over the next few years, why pay travel costs to fly down to Florida to administer an annual beating you could deliver much closer in Philadelphia for a fraction of the cost? Most experts can't see Penn State being in a football league with South Florida anyway, so the left behind scenario might have to happen no matter what.

OPTION A: SYRACUSE, CONNECTICUT, RUTGERS, PITT, WEST VIRGINIA, LOUISVILLE, CINCINNATI, PENN STATE, TEMPLE, and NOTRE DAME (everything except football).

But if Penn State can't be convinced to join, you still shouldn't look for the Big East to go after MAC teams. There's also the issue of South Florida being completely isolated from the league with no geographic rivals in sight. Therefore, look for Central Florida to be invited. Temple would be screwed again. Adding Central Florida, which is building a new on-campus stadium and a new on-campus basketball arena, would allow teams to knock off two conference games in one weekend trip down South. It's much more cost-efficient. This also depends on Central Florida getting better in football obviously.

OPTION B: SYRACUSE, CONNECTICUT, RUTGERS, PITT, WEST VIRGINIA, LOUISVILLE, CINCINNATI, SOUTH FLORIDA, CENTRAL FLORIDA, and NOTRE DAME (everything except football).

That's it. There are no other options except the remote possibility of East Carolina edging out Central Florida (or Massachusetts or Villanova moving up to NCAA Division I-A). Memphis, Southern Mississippi, and UAB are in the wrong time zone and the wrong part of the country. The Big East doesn't need to become CUSA North/East. And if the Big East wanted any MAC teams, they would've taken them already. Miami of Ohio barely averaged 15,000 fans a year after Ben Roethlisberger. Marshall duplicates West Virginia's market. Totally unnecessary. The Big East football schools will aim as high as possible.

As for the rest of your post, why would East Carolina leave CUSA to join the Sun Belt? They would still be isolated from the rest of the league. It's a lateral move offering no improvement at best. In addition, why would CUSA want three Louisiana teams? If they desired Louisiana Tech, they would've taken them instead of UTEP, which is thousands of miles away from everyone else, the last time. Louisiana Tech's situation is going to get worse, not better, in the next few years. Texas State is light years away from being able to move up. The MAC has already turned down YSU more than once.

In conclusion, the next realignment will not be as dramatic as people imagine. If the Big East lures Penn State (and Temple), the Big Ten will just stay at 10 again. Michigan and Ohio State rule that league, and they are VEHEMENTLY opposed to a title game anyway. A left behind South Florida would end up begging for CUSA readmission or joining the Sun Belt. But if Penn State tells the Big East no, look for CUSA to replace Central Florida with either North Texas (to the chagrin of the East Division) or New Mexico State (to the chagrin of UTEP despite the travel savings for the rest of the league). That's it.

Don't be offended if I proceed to ignore you from now on. Jettisoning one asinine poster for the good of my sanity is well worth the cost.

USFFan

Boy would Penn State be nice. I agree with the posts about waiting to see how we are doing as a league in three years. I do not think we will pass any of the other BCS conferences but I do think we can further distance ourselves from the MWC and CUSA. I see UConn rising to the level of what BC has been for the last 5 years. Always going to a bowl and many years flirting with the top 25. I would be very happy with that outcome. If Cincy and USF can improve we will be in a lot better position to approach PSU and Notre Dame.

Starting the Pitt v. PSU rivalry back up will definitely help as well. I know SU has an upcoming series with PSU. Although still a long shot if PSU ever defected it would make getting ND a whole lot easier.

If we strike out with PSU and ND in three years.... I think Marshall and Memphis are the logical next two.... It would be great if UCF became a solid program since they would be a natural rival for USF but I do not see that happening anytime soon. I believe Marshall (who espn tends to like) would be a good fit. They are natural rivals for Cincy, Pitt, Louisville and WVU. All those games are within driving distance. Memphis is simple the most solid all around program (excluding PSU and ND of course).

Get to get a few things straight. I know the heart of the original Big East is the North East but let's fact some facts. We Louisvillians are not in the North East, we are on the border of the South and the Mid West, Cincinnati is not in the Northeast, nor is West Virginia, nor is Tampa Bay Florida, nor was Blacksburg Virginia, nor was Miami Florida. So my question is why is it so hard to think that maybe we could play a Championship game in Florida or Kentucky or Ohio, Pennsyvania or West Virginia in November or early December, it is a balmy 40-60 degrees most the time that part of the country in that part of the year, 60 - 70s in Florida.

SUinOhio Wrote:Boy would Penn State be nice. I agree with the posts about waiting to see how we are doing as a league in three years. I do not think we will pass any of the other BCS conferences but I do think we can further distance ourselves from the MWC and CUSA. I see UConn rising to the level of what BC has been for the last 5 years. Always going to a bowl and many years flirting with the top 25. I would be very happy with that outcome. If Cincy and USF can improve we will be in a lot better position to approach PSU and Notre Dame.

Starting the Pitt v. PSU rivalry back up will definitely help as well. I know SU has an upcoming series with PSU. Although still a long shot if PSU ever defected it would make getting ND a whole lot easier.

If we strike out with PSU and ND in three years.... I think Marshall and Memphis are the logical next two.... It would be great if UCF became a solid program since they would be a natural rival for USF but I do not see that happening anytime soon. I believe Marshall (who espn tends to like) would be a good fit. They are natural rivals for Cincy, Pitt, Louisville and WVU. All those games are within driving distance. Memphis is simple the most solid all around program (excluding PSU and ND of course).

I doubt that PITT/PSU will be renewing the rivalry anytime soon. Joe Paterno has not minced words when saying he will not play Pitt.

Presently, I like Memphis as a fit. Marshall give me more pause because they're not a NATIONAL university. I would like to see our colleges recognized as national rather than regional.

MHSCard Wrote:Get to get a few things straight. I know the heart of the original Big East is the North East but let's fact some facts. We Louisvillians are not in the North East, we are on the border of the South and the Mid West, Cincinnati is not in the Northeast, nor is West Virginia, nor is Tampa Bay Florida, nor was Blacksburg Virginia, nor was Miami Florida. So my question is why is it so hard to think that maybe we could play a Championship game in Florida or Kentucky or Ohio, Pennsyvania or West Virginia in November or early December, it is a balmy 40-60 degrees most the time that part of the country in that part of the year, 60 - 70s in Florida.

Don't be so fast to say West Virginia isn't a Northeastern state. They're infrastructure planning is aligned with the Northeastern states (ie the EZPass electronic toll collection system as just one example). They are probably the most northeastern midwestern state, the most midwestern northeast state, the most southern northeastern state, and the most northeastern southern state. (A bit of a departure from something else I read here but I think its more accurate.) Geographically part of the state does reside above the Mason-Dixon line of old and parts of it are even in the Washington, DC metro area (the southern-end of the Northeast). West Virginia is a hyrbrid certainly but when push comes to shove since the civil war, WV has been with their Northeastern cousins on all sorts of things.

Cincy is not Northeastern but its certainly midwestern which is alot closer to northeastern than southern is. Louisville like much of Kentucky is much more midwestern than southern but is still a bit of a hybrid. Look at it this way whats the one thing that is hosted in Louisville, New York, and Baltimore, the Triple Crown of Horse Racing. You're not going to find much Horse Racing in the deep south but auto racing particularly of the Stock Car variety. However there is a ton of horse racing in the Northeast.

Calling people names doesn't solve anything, Usffan! There is no reason to call me "asinine." Did you read the whole post or just the parts you wanted to complain about? There is an Option A and an Option B. Did you understand the context of the post, or did you see one sentence you don't like and go crazy? The context of the post is not about me hating USF. I don't. The context is what if Penn State wanted to hook up with the Big East football schools but said they wouldn't be in a league with USF?

Would you put something like that past Penn State? The arrogance of schools like Penn State, Notre Dame, and Miami is legendary. Do you think they have the best interests of USF at heart? Do you think Penn State is playing USF in football this year out of respect or out of the arrogant idea that it will be an easy win? As a USF fan, do you trust Darryl Gross with your future? What about Jeff Hathaway? As long as the Big Ten and ACC are a danger to expand, the Big East will be uncomfortable.

Brista is right about West Virginia being aligned to the Northeast. And why does Louisville have to be the center of the conference? Why can't Louisville be the South/West flank? Louisville, Cincinnati, Pitt, and West Virginia form a good centralized location where rivalries can grow and flourish. UConn, Rutgers, and Syracuse form the other rivalry area. Temple would be welcome for that aspect at least (but less than Penn State). And then you can have USF and UCF together. That's three spheres of influence.

Every conference should have sets of schools with close rivalries and decent travel possibilities. Too many posters are overlooking these aspects in favor of the flavor of the month. There's so much flip-flopping on East Carolina, Memphis, Marshall, and Southern Miss that it's not even funny anymore. There is no concensus on any of those schools. The future Big North, or whatever the football schools will be called, needs to be cohesive and forward-thinking. All the schools need to be on the same page.

Now back to the original point, this wouldn't be the Big East kicking out anyone. This would be Penn State saying to seven schools ... "it's almost 2010, you can split from the hoops schools and the NCAA will recognize you fully with full auto bids and units/credits, we're willing to join you but only if you don't invite USF to split with you" ... would you put that past Penn State, knowing how arrogant they can be? Would you trust Darryl Gross, Jeff Hathaway, etc., to turn them down knowing it secures their future?

first and foremost, penn. st and norte dame will never come to the big east.

i mean for people to think that the big east can lure penn st to the big east is absolutely ridiculeous. just ask yourself this question....if your current university; in my case wvu, was already in the big ten would i want to go to the big east???

ain't no way i would leave a prestigous established bcs conference. just like maryland is not going to leave the acc.

and as far as geography is concerned that has nothing to do with anything. Miami, fla was in the big east and now south florida. that alignment is not going to change. Money is going to dictate who will be in the big east in the next shuffle, if it occurs.

however the following schools will be in the mix:

marshall univ
memphis
temple
ucf
ecu

everyone keeps talking about market, in the next shuffle market is not anything.. it's about who can put butts in the stadiums...

and as far as i am concerned its marshall and ecu.

i think everybody is going to realize how marshall moving into conference usa is going to really affect their attendance. marshall is not going to have any problems filling their 40,000 seat stadium now that schools like so. miss, utep, k-state, wvu, etc... vs. akron, buffalo..

i still believe that marshall univ. will be in the big east next shuffle. everyone keep saying that marshall isn't worthy...pleazeee. marshall should have been invited before some other schools that are now part of the new big east.

marshall univ. has proven itself over the last 15 years on what championship football is about and no one is going to tell me different.

as a alumni of both wvu and marshall, west virginia is going to see how good marshall is in 2007 when we play them at marshall stadium....

anyway forget penn st and norte dame and maryland... focus on building our own all sports power conference and i believe memphis, marshall, and ecu will figure into that equation.

jtwvu87 Wrote:however the following schools will be in the mix:

marshall univ
memphis
temple
ucf
ecu

Marshall will probably not be in the mix. The new conference will be created by the University Presidents, not the athletic directors. Marshall is a Master's University that doesn't fit the academic profile of the other 8 teams in the conference. The others are National Universities that have well established doctoral programs cranking out PhDs. When the football only schools split, they will be looking for schools that fit academically as well as athletically. This doesn't mean that Marshall isn't a good school, they are. The problem is they are devoted to undergraduate and Master's level education and don't engage in the kind of research that the rest of the FB playing members do. Pitt leads the way in the research dept, but of the 16 schools presently in the NBE only Georgetown has the kind of research funding that the FB schools have. If you ranked the schools by research 8 of the top 9 spots are the FB schools.

The NBE is not going to be the same sort of Frankenstein monster that the BE is. Alot of the problems we are going through is the result of different institutions with different agendas and academic missions. Unless UCF and Memphis improve their academics neither will get in in 2010. They are both 4th tier National Universities. No BCS conference has a 4th tier academic school in it. The BE, SEC, B12, and Pac10 all have tier 3 schools. They can use this 5 year period to improve themselves. None of them have any Master's Universities either. The reality is that the BE is best served to have a group of member institutions that have the same academic mission as well as athletic mission. Marshall only matches the athletic mission. And now that Bob Pruitt is gone, it remains to be seen whether or not they even match the athletic mission.

The schools that are tier 3 and above presently are:
Temple
UAB
ECU
Delaware
UMass
Army and Navy.

If the conference is on good standing athletically in 2010, it would not suprise me to see them extend an invite to Delaware who has a huge alumni base in Philadelphia. I don't think the FB schools want to abandon that market, so either them or Temple could come back in. UMass would reenter the Boston market and poke BC in the eye. It is also possible that BC might want to rejoin the league in 2010 depending on how things work out for them as the only Yankee team in the Good Ol' Boy ACC.

I might be wrong, but I doubt Marshall will be considered when the BE FB schools look to grow the conference.

Shannon Panther Wrote:

jtwvu87 Wrote:however the following schools will be in the mix:

marshall univ
memphis
temple
ucf
ecu

Marshall will probably not be in the mix. The new conference will be created by the University Presidents, not the athletic directors. Marshall is a Master's University that doesn't fit the academic profile of the other 8 teams in the conference. The others are National Universities that have well established doctoral programs cranking out PhDs. When the football only schools split, they will be looking for schools that fit academically as well as athletically. This doesn't mean that Marshall isn't a good school, they are. The problem is they are devoted to undergraduate and Master's level education and don't engage in the kind of research that the rest of the FB playing members do. Pitt leads the way in the research dept, but of the 16 schools presently in the NBE only Georgetown has the kind of research funding that the FB schools have. If you ranked the schools by research 8 of the top 9 spots are the FB schools.

The NBE is not going to be the same sort of Frankenstein monster that the BE is. Alot of the problems we are going through is the result of different institutions with different agendas and academic missions. Unless UCF and Memphis improve their academics neither will get in in 2010. They are both 4th tier National Universities. No BCS conference has a 4th tier academic school in it. The BE, SEC, B12, and Pac10 all have tier 3 schools. They can use this 5 year period to improve themselves. None of them have any Master's Universities either. The reality is that the BE is best served to have a group of member institutions that have the same academic mission as well as athletic mission. Marshall only matches the athletic mission. And now that Bob Pruitt is gone, it remains to be seen whether or not they even match the athletic mission.

The schools that are tier 3 and above presently are:
Temple
UAB
ECU
Delaware
UMass
Army and Navy.

If the conference is on good standing athletically in 2010, it would not suprise me to see them extend an invite to Delaware who has a huge alumni base in Philadelphia. I don't think the FB schools want to abandon that market, so either them or Temple could come back in. UMass would reenter the Boston market and poke BC in the eye. It is also possible that BC might want to rejoin the league in 2010 depending on how things work out for them as the only Yankee team in the Good Ol' Boy ACC.

I might be wrong, but I doubt Marshall will be considered when the BE FB schools look to grow the conference.

Shannon,

i understand that the big east would like to keep the academic mix as large research institutions but that isn't going to make us the 6th best bcs conference. i mean if mwc overtakes the bcs in ranking, how is selecting academic schools going to help the big east.

based on that rationale temple would have never been ejected from the big east. do you remember why temple was ejected from the big east????

well let me refresh your memory...no fan support...nobody was buying tickets....

all i am saying is that while similar academic missions would be nice, the next reshuffle will be about which existing schools in conference usa that are playing well (i.e. marshall, memphis, ecu...)

why would the presidents of the NBE select schools like navy, army, delaware, etc... that are national research institution but ranked near the bottom in football be selected to come to the nbe???.

no...the next reshuffle will not be academics but atheletics.... there is no way the NBE would respond to the MWC addition of Boise st and Fresno St with Delaware, Army, UAB, Umass....
it just doesn't add up...

brista21 Wrote:

MHSCard Wrote:Get to get a few things straight.  I know the heart of the original Big East is the North East but let's fact some facts.  We Louisvillians are not in the North East, we are on the border of the South and the Mid West, Cincinnati is not in the Northeast, nor is West Virginia, nor is Tampa Bay Florida, nor was Blacksburg Virginia, nor was Miami Florida.  So my question is why is it so hard to think that maybe we could play a Championship game in Florida or Kentucky or Ohio, Pennsyvania or West Virginia in November or early December, it is a balmy 40-60 degrees most the time that part of the country in that part of the year, 60 - 70s in Florida.

Don't be so fast to say West Virginia isn't a Northeastern state. They're infrastructure planning is aligned with the Northeastern states (ie the EZPass electronic toll collection system as just one example). They are probably the most northeastern midwestern state, the most midwestern northeast state, the most southern northeastern state, and the most northeastern southern state. (A bit of a departure from something else I read here but I think its more accurate.) Geographically part of the state does reside above the Mason-Dixon line of old and parts of it are even in the Washington, DC metro area (the southern-end of the Northeast). West Virginia is a hyrbrid certainly but when push comes to shove since the civil war, WV has been with their Northeastern cousins on all sorts of things.

Cincy is not Northeastern but its certainly midwestern which is alot closer to northeastern than southern is. Louisville like much of Kentucky is much more midwestern than southern but is still a bit of a hybrid. Look at it this way whats the one thing that is hosted in Louisville, New York, and Baltimore, the Triple Crown of Horse Racing. You're not going to find much Horse Racing in the deep south but auto racing particularly of the Stock Car variety. However there is a ton of horse racing in the Northeast.

Tell me again what Louisville and Kentucky are like!! :rolleyes: I grew up here. And I am not trying to be mean or a smartaleck but I will support my statement that Louisville at least is a southern city. The Civil War doesn't define what is and is not a southern city, but in these terms I will agree that certain social contructs connected to the Civil War do play a role, but they indicate Louisville has more southern, not midwestern connections.

As far as horse racing is concerned, Baltimore like Louisville was in a slave state, Florida is a big time place for horse racing as is Louisiana. The Florida Derby as well as races in New Orleans help set the field for many a Kentucky Derby hopeful. As far as stock car racers, Darrel Waltrip, the Green bros. and a few other fellows might inform you, Kentucky has put one or two drivers in a stock car.

Food, culture, speech patterns, and self image of both Louisville and Kentucky are connected to the South. Politically and Geographically our history indicates a strong mid-western connection, and a few of our citizens in Louisville and Northern Kentucky would like to claim that we are midwestern to try to erase the embarrassment of the regions history of slavary and civil rights injustice, bring up the fact that the Commonwealth never left the Union. They also try to erase the negitive image protrayed by Northeastern papers and commercial concerns that tried to paint Eastern Kentucky and the whole state for that matter as backward hillbillys so it would be easier to cover up the massive land stealing for logging and coal needed for Northeastern Winters. If you protray people as ignorant savages it is easier to support taking their land from them and giving them low paid mining job as long as you set up shanty town schools for the "betterment of the children". Some will point to Louisvilles high Catholic and Jewish population and try to connect that to the Mid-West or Northeastern cities, but like New Orleans, Louisville has a strong Irish, German and French connections that are common in many old southern cities.

Fact is however that Kentucky has a star on the Confederate flag and there was a alternate Confederate government in place should the South win the war. The Commonwealth declared itself nuetral and then sent Units to both sides to fight. Desegregation didn't happen in Louisville untill the 1970's and let's face it that is not a hallmark of a midwestern city. Ask older Seton Hall fans about what happened when they came to Louisville with an integrated roster in the 1950's. It is a shameful part of our past but it is not the type of reaction that a Mid-western city is noted for, it was more like what would have happened in Birmingham or Memphis.

Louisville was occupied by Shermans Army and there was a large force stationed there for the whole war. They camped on what is now U of L's campus and there is a monument placed on third street opposite the Speed Art muesuem, Esktrom Library and Fraternity row, it is a monument to "our Confederate Dead", placed there by the citizens of Louisville, right after the war when the Union encampment was moved off the land.

Oh yeah and the University of Kentucky is a founding member of the SEC, that means that they are considered to be in the Southeast and have been for many many generations. We are south of the Mason-Dixon line, Uncle Tom's cabin was set in Kentucky, Jefferson Davis was born and educated in Kentucky, and we have a crawfish boil every year in the Red Barn at U of L. As well as the Burgoo festival around Derby time. Jug band music, and Bluegrass are from Louisville and Kentucky as a whole and respectively, they are not what anyone would consider Northeastern or Mid-Western in origin, those roots are decidedly considered Southern in origin. Tell Bill Monroe, Loretta Lynn, Ashley Judd, Muhammad Ali, that they grew up in a Mid-western state, bet you Ali says he wishes he did.

As painful as our history and stereotypes are, and as much as we Louisvillians and other Kentuckian may like to pass those images and those labels south we are stuck with them good and bad. And yes there is more to being southern than the bad stuff like slavery and civil rights injustice, there are great things too. We are better than some and worse than others but we are proud all the same. But one fact remains Louisville, Cincy, Notre Dame, Marquette, Depaul, South Florida, and West Virginia are not culturally or geographically in the Northeast which was my original point. We don't have to think in those terms and lock ourselves into regional concern such as weather because we have teams in the league that can host a mild to warm weather location for a championship game should be expand. This is an Eastern league, not just a Northeastern league and we should think in those terms or be limited.

MHSCard Wrote:

brista21 Wrote:

MHSCard Wrote:Get to get a few things straight.   I know the heart of the original Big East is the North East but let's fact some facts.  We Louisvillians are not in the North East, we are on the border of the South and the Mid West, Cincinnati is not in the Northeast, nor is West Virginia, nor is Tampa Bay Florida, nor was Blacksburg Virginia, nor was Miami Florida.  So my question is why is it so hard to think that maybe we could play a Championship game in Florida or Kentucky or Ohio, Pennsyvania or West Virginia in November or early December, it is a balmy 40-60 degrees most the time that part of the country in that part of the year, 60 - 70s in Florida.

Don't be so fast to say West Virginia isn't a Northeastern state. They're infrastructure planning is aligned with the Northeastern states (ie the EZPass electronic toll collection system as just one example). They are probably the most northeastern midwestern state, the most midwestern northeast state, the most southern northeastern state, and the most northeastern southern state. (A bit of a departure from something else I read here but I think its more accurate.) Geographically part of the state does reside above the Mason-Dixon line of old and parts of it are even in the Washington, DC metro area (the southern-end of the Northeast). West Virginia is a hyrbrid certainly but when push comes to shove since the civil war, WV has been with their Northeastern cousins on all sorts of things.

Cincy is not Northeastern but its certainly midwestern which is alot closer to northeastern than southern is. Louisville like much of Kentucky is much more midwestern than southern but is still a bit of a hybrid. Look at it this way whats the one thing that is hosted in Louisville, New York, and Baltimore, the Triple Crown of Horse Racing. You're not going to find much Horse Racing in the deep south but auto racing particularly of the Stock Car variety. However there is a ton of horse racing in the Northeast.

Tell me again what Louisville and Kentucky are like!! :rolleyes: I grew up here. And I am not trying to be mean or a smartaleck but I will support my statement that Louisville at least is a southern city. The Civil War doesn't define what is and is not a southern city, but in these terms I will agree that certain social contructs connected to the Civil War do play a role, but they indicate Louisville has more southern, not midwestern connections.

As far as horse racing is concerned, Baltimore like Louisville was in a slave state, Florida is a big time place for horse racing as is Louisiana. The Florida Derby as well as races in New Orleans help set the field for many a Kentucky Derby hopeful. As far as stock car racers, Darrel Waltrip, the Green bros. and a few other fellows might inform you, Kentucky has put one or two drivers in a stock car.

Food, culture, speech patterns, and self image of both Louisville and Kentucky are connected to the South. Politically and Geographically our history indicates a strong mid-western connection, and a few of our citizens in Louisville and Northern Kentucky would like to claim that we are midwestern to try to erase the embarrassment of the regions history of slavary and civil rights injustice, bring up the fact that the Commonwealth never left the Union. They also try to erase the negitive image protrayed by Northeastern papers and commercial concerns that tried to paint Eastern Kentucky and the whole state for that matter as backward hillbillys so it would be easier to cover up the massive land stealing for logging and coal needed for Northeastern Winters. If you protray people as ignorant savages it is easier to support taking their land from them and giving them low paid mining job as long as you set up shanty town schools for the "betterment of the children". Some will point to Louisvilles high Catholic and Jewish population and try to connect that to the Mid-West or Northeastern cities, but like New Orleans, Louisville has a strong Irish, German and French connections that are common in many old southern cities.

Fact is however that Kentucky has a star on the Confederate flag and there was a alternate Confederate government in place should the South win the war. The Commonwealth declared itself nuetral and then sent Units to both sides to fight. Desegregation didn't happen in Louisville untill the 1970's and let's face it that is not a hallmark of a midwestern city. Ask older Seton Hall fans about what happened when they came to Louisville with an integrated roster in the 1950's. It is a shameful part of our past but it is not the type of reaction that a Mid-western city is noted for, it was more like what would have happened in Birmingham or Memphis.

Louisville was occupied by Shermans Army and there was a large force stationed there for the whole war. They camped on what is now U of L's campus and there is a monument placed on third street opposite the Speed Art muesuem, Esktrom Library and Fraternity row, it is a monument to "our Confederate Dead", placed there by the citizens of Louisville, right after the war when the Union encampment was moved off the land.

Oh yeah and the University of Kentucky is a founding member of the SEC, that means that they are considered to be in the Southeast and have been for many many generations. We are south of the Mason-Dixon line, Uncle Tom's cabin was set in Kentucky, Jefferson Davis was born and educated in Kentucky, and we have a crawfish boil every year in the Red Barn at U of L. As well as the Burgoo festival around Derby time. Jug band music, and Bluegrass are from Louisville and Kentucky as a whole and respectively, they are not what anyone would consider Northeastern or Mid-Western in origin, those roots are decidedly considered Southern in origin. Tell Bill Monroe, Loretta Lynn, Ashley Judd, Muhammad Ali, that they grew up in a Mid-western state, bet you Ali says he wishes he did.

As painful as our history and stereotypes are, and as much as we Louisvillians and other Kentuckian may like to pass those images and those labels south we are stuck with them good and bad. And yes there is more to being southern than the bad stuff like slavery and civil rights injustice, there are great things too. We are better than some and worse than others but we are proud all the same. But one fact remains Louisville, Cincy, Notre Dame, Marquette, Depaul, South Florida, and West Virginia are not culturally or geographically in the Northeast which was my original point. We don't have to think in those terms and lock ourselves into regional concern such as weather because we have teams in the league that can host a mild to warm weather location for a championship game should be expand. This is an Eastern league, not just a Northeastern league and we should think in those terms or be limited.

There is no doubt that Kentucky is culturally southern, but so is Virginia and West Virginia. I love all three states.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:Calling people names doesn't solve anything, Usffan! There is no reason to call me "asinine." Did you read the whole post or just the parts you wanted to complain about? There is an Option A and an Option B. Did you understand the context of the post, or did you see one sentence you don't like and go crazy? The context of the post is not about me hating USF. I don't. The context is what if Penn State wanted to hook up with the Big East football schools but said they wouldn't be in a league with USF?

Would you put something like that past Penn State? The arrogance of schools like Penn State, Notre Dame, and Miami is legendary. Do you think they have the best interests of USF at heart? Do you think Penn State is playing USF in football this year out of respect or out of the arrogant idea that it will be an easy win? As a USF fan, do you trust Darryl Gross with your future? What about Jeff Hathaway? As long as the Big Ten and ACC are a danger to expand, the Big East will be uncomfortable.

Brista is right about West Virginia being aligned to the Northeast. And why does Louisville have to be the center of the conference? Why can't Louisville be the South/West flank? Louisville, Cincinnati, Pitt, and West Virginia form a good centralized location where rivalries can grow and flourish. UConn, Rutgers, and Syracuse form the other rivalry area. Temple would be welcome for that aspect at least (but less than Penn State). And then you can have USF and UCF together. That's three spheres of influence.

Every conference should have sets of schools with close rivalries and decent travel possibilities. Too many posters are overlooking these aspects in favor of the flavor of the month. There's so much flip-flopping on East Carolina, Memphis, Marshall, and Southern Miss that it's not even funny anymore. There is no concensus on any of those schools. The future Big North, or whatever the football schools will be called, needs to be cohesive and forward-thinking. All the schools need to be on the same page.

Now back to the original point, this wouldn't be the Big East kicking out anyone. This would be Penn State saying to seven schools ... "it's almost 2010, you can split from the hoops schools and the NCAA will recognize you fully with full auto bids and units/credits, we're willing to join you but only if you don't invite USF to split with you" ... would you put that past Penn State, knowing how arrogant they can be? Would you trust Darryl Gross, Jeff Hathaway, etc., to turn them down knowing it secures their future?

1 - since we STILL haven't even officially joined the conference, I think it's asinine to already be talking about booting us out.

2 - I don't see a great "problem" that needs to be fixed, so posting to stir up crap also qualifies as asinine in my opinion.

3 - I did read the entire post, but anybody who starts a post off by "expelling" a conference member who hasn't even had a chance to prove themselves on the field (even as one of several options) doesn't strike me as being particularly serious about doing anything other than fanning the flames that they started in the first place.

USFFan

Usffan, I never said I personally want USF booted out of the Big East. Stop taking things the wrong way. Look at the context of the post. No one is posting to stir anything up as you unfortunately see it. Have you noticed any of my other posts where I also talk about the regionality issue and how it would be great to also have UCF in the Big East to maximize the budget and travel efficiency of sending non-revenue sports to Florida? Isn't that something (out of many things) that Miami was always complaining about? Have you noticed the posts where I said it would be great if USF could really help the conference by getting a second Tampa bowl started at Raymond James stadium? No response, huh? There are a zillion topics on this board that a whole lot of posters probably don't like. There's no reason to get personal and insult people. Like I said, do you trust Darryl Gross with your school's future? Have you read what Syracuse fans claim he's saying about the conference? I have written many times on many boards that I hope USF does well in the Big East and proves to be the right choice. Now, you can believe that and be positive about the future, or you can go on being bitter and angry for no real reason at all. And once again, twelve is not everyone's magic number.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:Usffan, I never said I personally want USF booted out of the Big East. Stop taking things the wrong way. Look at the context of the post. No one is posting to stir anything up as you unfortunately see it. Have you noticed any of my other posts where I also talk about the regionality issue and how it would be great to also have UCF in the Big East to maximize the budget and travel efficiency of sending non-revenue sports to Florida? Isn't that something (out of many things) that Miami was always complaining about? Have you noticed the posts where I said it would be great if USF could really help the conference by getting a second Tampa bowl started at Raymond James stadium? No response, huh? There are a zillion topics on this board that a whole lot of posters probably don't like. There's no reason to get personal and insult people. Like I said, do you trust Darryl Gross with your school's future? Have you read what Syracuse fans claim he's saying about the conference? I have written many times on many boards that I hope USF does well in the Big East and proves to be the right choice. Now, you can believe that and be positive about the future, or you can go on being bitter and angry for no real reason at all. And once again, twelve is not everyone's magic number.

I have read some of your other posts, but most come across like Chicken Little screaming about how the sky is falling.

I've posted elsewhere that the travel impact whined about by Miami was a poor excuse at best. Of the 16 schools in the Big East, most can access Tampa via non-stop commercial routes. USF was already in a position where they had to fly to their closest conference rival (UAB), so no difference in costs there.

I did notice that you thought it would be great if USF could start a second bowl in Tampa. It would be great if Rutgers could start one in New York, too. Miami wasn't able to start a new bowl in Miami, why is it USF would be able to do so in Tampa? Those are some mighty lofty expectations you have there. You do realize that we share our stadium with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, who also use the stadium during the month of December. They already have to schedule around the Outback Bowl - it's highly unlikely that they'd be willing to do it twice.

If calling your post asinine (which I still believe) is enough for you to get that worked up, then you live in a pretty idyllic world.

I have indeed read what Darryl Gross has reportedly said about the Big East. Ultimately, though, he's one man entitled to his "alleged" opinion. As of this writing, there aren't better options available to Syracuse - otherwise they would have taken them. Therefore, I'm not going to get my blood pressure up over what the Syracuse AD thinks about the Big East.

Finally, I never disagreed with you about the number 12. I just don't agree with your manner of getting there.

USFFan

Asinine? Chicken Little? You just can't help yourself, huh? The way having both USF and UCF in the Big East helps maximize travel cost efficiency is in basketball and non-revenue sports. Imagine you're the Rutgers or UConn AD working on the budget for the baseball team. What makes more sense ... fly to Tampa, play, drive one hour to Orlando, rest, play, fly back home ... or fly to Tampa, play, drive lots of hours to ECU/UAB/USM, be dead tired, play, fly back home ... or fly to Tampa, play, fly to ECU/Memphis/TBA, be dead tired, play, fly back home?

Conferences work best when they are built on regionality, commonality, identity, and rivalry. Look at a map of the Big East now. There is a Northeast trio (UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers) and a Mideast quad (Pitt, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincy) and a Florida "island" (USF). Now, tossing out anyone's Penn State dreams, think about how the identity of the conference might be improved with a Northeast quad (adding Temple), the same Mideast quad, and a Florida pair (adding UCF). In that scenario, every school has at least one close rival. This aids travel for the non-revenue sports and helps solidify the fan bases as there are common groups of schools everyone can identify with. The two quads also fit together very well while the Florida connection provides a great experience for student-athletes in all sports and hopefully helps solidify bowl bids and recruiting exposure.

As far as the bowl situation goes ... the Big East had an automatic tie-in to the ORANGE BOWL when Miami was in the conference. Remember those days? As for Tampa not being able to host a second bowl because of having an NFL team in the stadium ... uhhh ... Arizona has two bowls and an NFL team ... New Orleans has two bowls and an NFL team ... San Diego has two bowls and an NFL team ... Orlando has two bowls as well ... if those cities can do it, so can Tampa. What the heck ... if Boise, Idaho, can host a bowl ... then Tampa can host two.