(06-29-2011 08:23 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 08:19 AM)Paul M Wrote:  If you guys really have a problem with shrimp, speak your minds. If people get something wrong (not saying they have, someone more knowledgeable than me will have to weigh in on shrimp), it doesn't mean you get a free pass on something else to your liking.

I like it lightly battered and deep-fried.

etouffee

(06-29-2011 09:15 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 08:57 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  And this is why you lap up any critique of scripture by anyone that fits your personal set of morals. Its the difference between reading the Gospel and understanding it. Its a revelation of the Holy Spirit that, lord willing, you will some day understand.

I assume the irony here is unintentional? YOU understand it, but those hundreds and thousands of pastors and religious figures who rejoice in the union of two loving and committed individuals do not. Gotcha.

Wow seldom does one completely ignore all but a few words and claim 'irony' so well.. Good job sir!

I view the ever increasing number of 'religious leaders' who excuse sin the same way I view pastors in the south who excused slavery. They have a view of what the want and go scripture twisting to make it work.

Its no mistake that as secular society greatly increases its acceptance of homosexuality some worldly denominations fall into that trap.

(06-29-2011 09:23 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  They have a view of what the want and go scripture twisting to make it work.

No, just a different interpretation of scripture, and a recognition of the love and commitment of 2 individuals who want to spend their lives together in peace and equality.

(06-29-2011 09:34 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 09:23 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  They have a view of what the want and go scripture twisting to make it work.

No, just a different interpretation of scripture, and a recognition of the love and commitment of 2 individuals who want to spend their lives together in peace and equality.

Folks: If you're joining us late here is how the argument boils down

Bible: Don't Commit Adultery
Pastor 1: The Bible Says Don't Commit Adultery
Pastor 2: Adultery is fine, just be nice about it
wvucrazed: See there are different 'interpretations' out there
me: Thats not an interpretation, he is ignoring clear scripture
wvucrazed: See there are different 'interpretations' out there
me: But it says right there its not ok!@
wvucrazed: See there are different 'interpretations' out there

This is the part where I bow out, trying to educate someone who acting like a bot is just not good for the spirit..

(06-29-2011 09:39 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 09:34 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 09:23 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  They have a view of what the want and go scripture twisting to make it work.

No, just a different interpretation of scripture, and a recognition of the love and commitment of 2 individuals who want to spend their lives together in peace and equality.

Folks: If you're joining us late here is how the argument boils down

Bible: Don't Commit Adultery
Pastor 1: The Bible Says Don't Commit Adultery
Pastor 2: Adultery is fine, just be nice about it
wvucrazed: See there are different 'interpretations' out there
me: Thats not an interpritation, he is ignoring clear scripture
wvucrazed: See there are different 'interpretations' out there
me: But it says right there its not ok!@
wvucrazed: See there are different 'interpretations' out there

This is the part where I bow out, trying to education someone who acting like a bot is just not good for the spirit..

Maybe some humility and some realization that perhaps you don't know all the answers is good for ya.

(06-29-2011 09:40 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 09:39 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 09:34 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 09:23 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  They have a view of what the want and go scripture twisting to make it work.

No, just a different interpretation of scripture, and a recognition of the love and commitment of 2 individuals who want to spend their lives together in peace and equality.

Folks: If you're joining us late here is how the argument boils down

Bible: Don't Commit Adultery
Pastor 1: The Bible Says Don't Commit Adultery
Pastor 2: Adultery is fine, just be nice about it
wvucrazed: See there are different 'interpretations' out there
me: Thats not an interpritation, he is ignoring clear scripture
wvucrazed: See there are different 'interpretations' out there
me: But it says right there its not ok!@
wvucrazed: See there are different 'interpretations' out there

This is the part where I bow out, trying to education someone who acting like a bot is just not good for the spirit..

Maybe some humility and some realization that perhaps you don't know all the answers is good for ya.

Non sequitur: Claiming to know some of the answers is not the same as claiming to know all of the answers..

(06-29-2011 09:17 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 08:23 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 08:19 AM)Paul M Wrote:  If you guys really have a problem with shrimp, speak your minds. If people get something wrong (not saying they have, someone more knowledgeable than me will have to weigh in on shrimp), it doesn't mean you get a free pass on something else to your liking.

I like it lightly battered and deep-fried.

etouffee

Boiled in the shell...served with corn on the cob. This coming Monday's annual 4th of July dinner.

I tried mussels for the first time in Palisades last night. Oh. My. God. Amazing.

Some fascinating insight here on the Biblical stance on homosexuality and other issues, and our changing attitudes toward some of these issues:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/21...sexuality/

(06-29-2011 01:18 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Some fascinating insight here on the Biblical stance on homosexuality and other issues, and our changing attitudes toward some of these issues:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/21...sexuality/

Yes very interesting, even a pro tolerance person that actually studied the Bible can't deny

Quote:I don’t doubt that the one New Testament author who wrote on the subject of male-male intercourse thought it a sin.

Quote:I also don’t doubt that those who advocate gay marriage are advocating a revision of the Christian tradition.

And then the clever word games begin:;

Quote:And then there’s the topic of divorce. Although there is only one uncontested reference to same-sex relations in the New Testament, divorce is condemned throughout, both by Jesus and Paul. To quote Jesus from the Gospel of Mark: “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.”

A possible exception is made only for unfaithfulness

.

Umm fail! Adultery was not a Possible exception, it was an *explicitly enumerated exception*... Also the provision was not on divorce per se but divorce and remarriage! There are still many churches that will not remarry a person who divorced while they were a professing Christian.

Quote:"Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 5:31,32).

But I suppose for any reason except sexual immorality must be open for interpretation right?

He goes on

Quote:On the other hand, it’s not at all difficult for a community of Christian leaders, who are almost exclusively white, heterosexual men, to advocate interpretations that can be very impractical for a historically oppressed minority to which they do not belong – homosexuals.

But wait a second did you not just say:

Quote:I don’t doubt that the one New Testament author who wrote on the subject of male-male intercourse thought it a sin.

Quote:I also don’t doubt that those who advocate gay marriage are advocating a revision of the Christian tradition.

So which is it? Is it that The big bad evil conservative christian advocating "interpretations" or is there no doubt in your mind that the authors in the NT who wrote "on the subject of male-male intercourse thought it a sin."

See you just ignore plan fact spin some words and then call it an interpretation only a few scant paragraphs below where you stated it was a fact.. Thats bait and switch theology, and it's the only way to square homosexuality with actual Christ centered churches.

This guy is a joke...

(06-29-2011 01:47 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  This guy is a joke...

You should let the recent Yale Divinity School graduate know that, according to Bull_in_Exile, he is a "joke". I'm sure he'll appreciate the direction, and the knowledge that all of this time at Yale Divinity School was evidently wasted, and that he knows not what he speaks. Then he can focus on something that better suits him, and stop wasting time on all that Bible stuff.

Or... could it be... that he actually knows what the hell he is taking about?

His argument that attitudes in the Church about what is permissible (i.e. interpretations of Scripture) have changed is irrefutable. Attitudes have changed, in the church and in society at large. There are still variations in doctrine, sure. There always will be. Remember, 10 experts in a room, 10 different interpretations.

All I know is that there are no shortage of theologians who embrace homosexual marriage. They are all fools who don't understand what you so clearly are able to decipher? Nah. You can't tell me with a straight face that different people --- all well educated and well-versed in Biblical scholarship --- don't support different interpretations of scripture, including "moral" issues such as homosexuality. You can say they are wrong; they can say you are wrong. Where does it get us?

Back to the original point, which is this: there is no truth to be learned here. It's all conjecture on folklore, and should have no bearing on our laws and rights as Americans.

(06-29-2011 02:07 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  You should let the recent Yale Divinity School graduate know that, according to Bull_in_Exile, he is a "joke". I'm sure he'll appreciate the direction, and the knowledge that all of this time at Yale Divinity School was evidently wasted, and that he knows not what he speaks. Then he can focus on something that better suits him, and stop wasting time on all that Bible stuff.

Or... could it be... that he actually knows what the hell he is taking about?

Bush graduated from Yale, that name holds little currency with many as should a secular institutions 'divinity school'. I told you earlier there is reading and there is understanding. Its like an engineering degree from a cosmetology school.

Quote:His argument that attitudes in the Church

Begins with his own admission that the authorship of the Bible was by people who considered it *A SIN*...

Please continue

Quote:about what is permissible (i.e. interpretations of Scripture) have changes is irrefutable.

Except where he explicitly explained that the provisions against homosexuality were not an 'interpretation' they were *THE INTENT* of the authors. But lets ignore that part so we can claim 'interpretations' that mean what ever the hell feels nice.

Quote:Attitudes have changed

Yet God has not.. Thats a cornerstone of Christian Theology you know, the whole Alpha and Omega thing...

The practice of making God in our image is idol making. It is as despicable when the "name it claim it" people do it as it is when carried out by the "let's not judge within the church" crowd does it.

Quote:in the church and in society at large.

Christ was quick to point out that ' the church' is not always right but that the scriptures are! He spent a good portion of the gospels dealing with that issue.

Quote:There are still variations in doctrine

Doctrine is made by man, Scripture is God inspired and even by the authors admission it scriptural calls homosexuality a SIN! Was long hair *ever* called a sin?

No, it says

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him"

The word disgrace is the greek atima - which means dishonour and is never, never, translated as sinful or sin because that is not what it means!

This! (hair) is not a sin/salvation issue and it is never called as such in the Bible. Homosexuality, however, is *always* mentioned as a sin salvation issue. Even the Author got that, he just decided to lump explicit sin in with non salvation issues because it fits his agenda.

Quote:There always will be. Remember, 10 experts in a room, 10 different interpretations.

When nine of them ignore what they just said so they can jump through a hoop that society at large likes you can toss those opinions out.

(06-29-2011 02:22 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  When nine of them ignore what they just said so they can jump through a hoop that society at large likes you can toss those opinions out.

YOU can, I suppose - as they don't agree with you.

And I can too, I suppose, since it's all nonsense anyway.

But the bottom line is this: there are wide differences of opinion among theologians, pastors, churches, and people of faith regarding homosexuality. As I said earlier, one need only look at Albany, NY this past week to see all of the prayers and church leaders in support of gay marriage - - - - and, of course, many were against as well.

You can make your arguments and view it how you want to, and yet if everything is as clear as you paint it, why the wide divergence of opinion? What are they missing? Is it just stubbornness? Ignorance? They are all delusional and have forsaken the true word of God? You really think that, of all of these people who have devoted their lives to the worship of God?

The ship is in the process of sailing on this issue. You've got openly gay clergy, now. Imagine that in years past!!! Never. As we grow as a society, we evolve, and learn. Many in the church are embracing that change. Many won't, but the change is happening nonetheless.

Oh I have stood corrected many times in my walk. And I am more than willing to listen to anything except "society has changed so maybe we should rethink..."

That not theology that a county club.

Quote:"here are wide differences of opinion among theologians, pastors, churches, and people of faith regarding homosexuality."

And there were people that thought the earth was flat, that did not make their opinion valid.

Look you're a heathen, you get a pass on ignoring the Bible (from me, not from God) but anyone who claims to lead a flock and blatantly ignores their own knowledge that something is a sin, well I sure would not want to stand in their shoes come judgment day.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

And on that I think I am done here, yes for real this time..

(06-29-2011 02:44 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Oh I have stood corrected many times in my walk. And I am more than willing to listen to anything except "society has changed so maybe we should rethink..."

That not theology that a county club.

Quote:"here are wide differences of opinion among theologians, pastors, churches, and people of faith regarding homosexuality."

And there were people that thought the earth was flat, that did not make their opinion valid.

Look you're a heathen, you get a pass on ignoring the Bible (from me, not from God) but anyone who claims to lead a flock and blatantly ignores their own knowledge that something is a sin, well I sure would not want to stand in their shoes come judgment day.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

And on that I think I am done here, yes for real this time..

But they aren't blatantly ignoring anything.

It's - your favorite word - a difference of interpretation.

Good discussion. I've been called a heathen and a pagan this week. I think that calls for a drink.

(06-29-2011 02:39 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  the bottom line is this: there are wide differences of opinion among theologians, pastors, churches, and people of faith regarding homosexuality.

In what way is that "the bottom line"? People have always disagreed about things.

Quote:Is it just stubbornness? Ignorance? They are all delusional and have forsaken the true word of God? You really think that, of all of these people who have devoted their lives to the worship of God?

Yes.

Quote:The ship is in the process of sailing on this issue.

Indeed, it is. But it's the final destination that matters. I'm sure the Titanic looked very stable as it pulled out of Southampton.

Quote:As we grow as a society, we evolve, and learn. Many in the church are embracing that change. Many won't, but the change is happening nonetheless.

Switch out "church" for "garden", and I can imagine the serpent saying those words to Adam and Eve.

(06-29-2011 02:54 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Switch out "church" for "garden", and I can imagine the serpent saying those words to Adam and Eve.

I can't, but then I don't believe in the tooth fairy, either.

(06-29-2011 02:59 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 02:54 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Switch out "church" for "garden", and I can imagine the serpent saying those words to Adam and Eve.

I can't

Which explains a lot.

Quote:but then I don't believe in the tooth fairy, either.

So there is common ground between us, after all!

(06-29-2011 03:01 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 02:59 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(06-29-2011 02:54 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Switch out "church" for "garden", and I can imagine the serpent saying those words to Adam and Eve.

I can't

Which explains a lot.

Quote:but then I don't believe in the tooth fairy, either.

So there is common ground between us, after all!

There's a lot of common ground. We don't need fables or old folklore that's been interpreted and re-interpreted and cobbled together to know the difference between right and wrong.

What's that phrase that freaks out Bill O'Reilly so much - - Secular Humanism? "Imagine no religion... it isn't hard to do".

A naive dream, for sure; we as humans, to a large extent, seem to have that innate need to believe in something deeper. But I'll settle for "live and let live" in equality, and then let the chips fall where they may when we die.