(06-19-2011 12:06 PM)TOGC Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 12:03 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  TOGC, humans are capable of miraculous breakthroughs of genius. They are not, however, perfect. Ayn Rand is an example of both of these human qualities.

We're going to have to disagree on the genius part.

(06-19-2011 12:04 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 11:56 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 11:51 AM)TOGC Wrote:  I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of conservatives who idolize her don't even know she was an atheist. It might change a lot of their opinions if they knew.

Read above, fool. There are a lot of conservative atheists.

Rebel might disagree with the first part of the phrase when it comes to me, but I am a conservative atheist.

Would you agree or disagree that the vast majority of conservatives in America are Christian?

I would agree that the vast majority of Americans are Christian....conservative, moderate, and liberal.


If you don't agree on Ayn Rand's spark of genius then perhaps you will agree with Orson Welles, or JD Salinger. Neither of them were perfect in their personal lives or professional existence, but man when they were good, they were good.

(06-19-2011 12:03 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  TOGC, humans are capable of miraculous breakthroughs of genius. They are not, however, perfect. Ayn Rand is an example of both of these human qualities.

I think most of us are still waiting for her "miraculous breakthroughs of genius".

(06-19-2011 08:53 AM)TOGC Wrote:  She hates altruism and God. I'll bet most Tea Baggers/Conservatives don't realize what a nutjob Any Rand really was.

Setting aside the fact that you can't hate something that doesn't exist - or at least that you believe doesn't exist - it's hard to imagine how anyone who has read her or claims to follow her would miss two of the central ideas of her philosophy. Is anyone surprised that she said "religion is fundamentally evil"?

(06-19-2011 11:51 AM)TOGC Wrote:  I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of conservatives who idolize her don't even know she was an atheist. It might change a lot of their opinions if they knew.

I'd take that bet, but you're asking me to pit how one ignorant person estimates the ignorance of people with better judgement than him.

(06-19-2011 11:51 AM)TOGC Wrote:  I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of conservatives who idolize her don't even know she was an atheist. It might change a lot of their opinions if they knew.

Find one and get back to us.

Everybody knows this. I take that back. It's seems to be a revelation to you. I take that back. Now you know.

I think SMN is an atheist. We don't seem to mind. Myself, I'm not all that religious and I loathe organized religion. TOGC, as always, has no point and I've known Ayn was an Atheist for as long as I've known about Ayn.

Being an atheist is one of the first things people discover about Rand. It would be hard to miss.

(06-19-2011 02:14 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Being an atheist is one of the first things people discover about Rand. It would be hard to miss.

Yep. I found out she was atheist not long after I heard of her and read Atlas.

Has exactly nothing to do with her ideas on economics.

(06-19-2011 11:51 AM)TOGC Wrote:  I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of conservatives who idolize her don't even know she was an atheist. It might change a lot of their opinions if they knew.

No one has been able to challenge my previous statement. Not one of you.

(06-19-2011 03:17 PM)TOGC Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 11:51 AM)TOGC Wrote:  I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of conservatives who idolize her don't even know she was an atheist. It might change a lot of their opinions if they knew.

No one has been able to challenge my previous statement. Not one of you.

I challenged you to find one. Got one yet?

Here's a novel idea. Back up your claim.

(06-19-2011 03:23 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 03:17 PM)TOGC Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 11:51 AM)TOGC Wrote:  I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of conservatives who idolize her don't even know she was an atheist. It might change a lot of their opinions if they knew.

No one has been able to challenge my previous statement. Not one of you.

I challenged you to find one. Got one yet?

Here's a novel idea. Back up your claim.

Sorry Paul, doesn't work that way. See liberals have the added advantage of being able to make claims and demand you prove it wrong. They don't believe in offering evidence to back up their claims.

Darn!

Except that she is. And I agreed with everything she said in that clip, and her book.

And oh yea ... I'm an atheist too.

I think you'll find a surprising number of people on this board at least reject organized religion. If you've done that -- you're 2/3 of the way to being atheist, and 100% of the way to thinking for yourself.

(06-19-2011 03:23 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 03:17 PM)TOGC Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 11:51 AM)TOGC Wrote:  I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of conservatives who idolize her don't even know she was an atheist. It might change a lot of their opinions if they knew.

No one has been able to challenge my previous statement. Not one of you.

I challenged you to find one. Got one yet?

Here's a novel idea. Back up your claim.

The bigger challenge is to

1) Find someone who knows who she is.
2) Of that group, find someone who has read at least one book from beginnning to end
3) Of that group, find someone who agrees with her.

That's a tiny group, compared to the US population as a whole. But there seems to be a lot of people who spout her name, even though they can't name one of her books nor tell you anything about her personally.

Now I know this board is infested by a group of agnostic/atheist conservatives (although libertarian would be a better description), but you are actually part of a tiny fringe group nationally compared to the rest of the US population. None of you are representative of the opinions of the vast majority of Americans.

Evangelicals would throw her book in the trash if they knew she was an atheist. As somone who lives right in the middle of the Bible belt, it's obvious that atheists don't fare well with the religious right (which has taken over the Tea Party).

Not that most of those ignorant twits ever bothered to do real research and discover something on their own. They are spoon fed garbage by Beck, Hannity, and O'Reilly and the other clowns at Fox. Conservatives bank on the fact that most Americans are ignorant. If these people started to think for themselves, the GOP would lose a large block of their base.

(06-19-2011 03:37 PM)TOGC Wrote:  1) Find someone who knows who she is.
2) Of that group, find someone who has read at least one book from beginnning to end
3) Of that group, find someone who agrees with her.

That'd be me.

Let me issue you a similar challenge, since, IIRC, you're a Christian. Have you read the Bible? Cover to cover? Do you agree with it? Regardless of whether you do or don't -- why are you living your life against the Bible -- the alleged word of God? But GTS, you ask, how do you know that I'm living me life against what the Bible says? Well, I've read the damn thing, and if you follow what it says in that book you'd be in a federal prison.

(06-19-2011 03:37 PM)TOGC Wrote:  Evangelicals would throw her book in the trash if they knew she was an atheist. As somone who lives right in the middle of the Bible belt, it's obvious that atheists don't fare well with the religious right (which has taken over the Tea Party).

I'm Evangelical, and I have her book on my shelf.

See the stupidity you are exhibiting, and the ignorance from which it stems, some how thinks that simply because a person doesn't hold the same religious views that somehow that impacts how we treat their views on economics and other non-religious matters.

Example, GTS and I don't see eye to eye on any aspect of religion. In fact I think he's a card carrying a$$hole in how he characterizes believers. That being said, there are numerous economic views he holds that I whole heartedly agree with. And that doesn't change because he hates religion and religious people.

Are there some that may disregard Rand because of her religious views? Sure. But it's not true of the majority. Given that I associate with far more evangelicals than either you or GTS, I'm fairly well positioned to make that statement.

(06-19-2011 11:51 AM)TOGC Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 10:32 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 10:27 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You coule tell that some creative editing was done here. I would like to see what she said after the church question. She may have expounding on her answer. It was a quick cut off, however great find TOGC.

Great find if you are comparing it to the dastardly concept that conservative radio show hosts advertise products to make money...Ayn Rand's atheism is common knowledge. Christians who flock to Rand's messages are - again - using their critical reasoning and giving credit to her thought on economics and gov't. It doesn't mean that they agree with her thought 100% at all time. It's called critical thinking - weighing ideas and reasoning through what makes sense and what does not.

I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of conservatives who idolize her don't even know she was an atheist. It might change a lot of their opinions if they knew.

PUOSU.

(06-19-2011 03:43 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Example, GTS and I don't see eye to eye on any aspect of religion. In fact I think he's a card carrying a$$hole in how he characterizes believers. That being said, there are numerous economic views he holds that I whole heartedly agree with. And that doesn't change because he hates religion and religious people.

Candid Protip: The reason I poke people participating in organized religion is that I want them to think for themselves. I think the most good I can do to turnaround the flushing of Western civilization down the toilet is to unplug people from the Matrix. Get them to take a f*cking look around and start thinking for themselves. Part of that means the removal of faith, with faith being defined strictly by it's dictionary meaning. That's faith in government, faith in central economic planning, faith in fiat currency, faith in fractional reserve banking, faith in legislating of morality, faith in organized religion, faith in (*). I view organized religion as government applied to spirituality: top down central planning. If you're religious but don't participate in organized religion ... fine. Then I'm satisfied you've made at least a semi-informed decision for yourself, and you've taken a look around and observed the gaping flaws in traditional organized religion. You are at least spiritually unplugged from the Matrix.

(06-19-2011 03:42 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 03:37 PM)TOGC Wrote:  1) Find someone who knows who she is.
2) Of that group, find someone who has read at least one book from beginnning to end
3) Of that group, find someone who agrees with her.

That'd be me.

Let me issue you a similar challenge, since, IIRC, you're a Christian. Have you read the Bible? Cover to cover? Do you agree with it? Regardless of whether you do or don't -- why are you living your life against the Bible -- the alleged word of God? But GTS, you ask, how do you know that I'm living me life against what the Bible says? Well, I've read the damn thing, and if you follow what it says in that book you'd be in a federal prison.

Yeah, I consider myself a Christian. I go to Church all the time. I was raised Catholic but married a Southern Baptist. I have read the Bible cover to cover. The Bible is filled with a bunch of allegories and lessons which teach morality. Song of Solomon is a romantic poem from a man to a woman. The book of Leviticus is a book of rituals and early Jewish law. The New Testament is filled with tons of letters to different congregations. It isn't a history book from cover to cover.

For Christians, the Old Testament is meant to be the Old Covenant with God's Chosen People (the Hebrews). The New Testament is meant to be the New Covenant with all believers.

When I read Jesus's message, I see a message of compassion.

Quote:“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ "---Matthew 25:40.

Based on their comments, I can only believe that most conservatives, if they are Christian, adhere more closely to the Hellfire and Brimstone God of the Old Testament.

Jesus was compassionate towards the poor, the sick, the downtrodden. If the Bible has a shred of truth in it, there are going to be a lot of conservative Christians who are in for a rude awakening on judgement day.

(06-19-2011 04:02 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(06-19-2011 03:43 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Example, GTS and I don't see eye to eye on any aspect of religion. In fact I think he's a card carrying a$$hole in how he characterizes believers. That being said, there are numerous economic views he holds that I whole heartedly agree with. And that doesn't change because he hates religion and religious people.

Candid Protip: The reason I poke people participating in organized religion is that I want them to think for themselves. I think the most good I can do to turnaround the flushing of Western civilization down the toilet is to unplug people from the Matrix. Get them to take a f*cking look around and start thinking for themselves. Part of that means the removal of faith, with faith being defined strictly by it's dictionary meaning. That's faith in government, faith in central economic planning, faith in fiat currency, faith in fractional reserve banking, faith in legislating of morality, faith in organized religion, faith in (*). I view organized religion as government applied to spirituality: top down central planning. If you're religious but don't participate in organized religion ... fine. Then I'm satisfied you've made at least a semi-informed decision for yourself, and you've taken a look around and observed the gaping flaws in traditional organized religion. You are at least spiritually unplugged from the Matrix.

I think critically about the world around me all the time. I've thought critically about my faith on numerous occassions, and I continue to. And GTS you've had nothing to do with any of that because you're a prick about it.

You hide behind some delusion that your motivation is based in the purity of wanting people to think for themselves. But that has zero to do with it. It's rooted in the fact that you genuinely believe your disbelief in God somehow makes you better and more intelligent than those of us that do. It's your way of propping yourself up and feeding your over inflated sense of self.

If your real goal was to challenge people to think critically your tact would be profoundly different. And you certainly wouldn't start from the assumption simply because someone is religious that they have never thought critically. Because you start there you are deluding yourself by claiming you'd ever be satisfied that someone had if they told you so. Because what you think is that if someone thinks critically they can't help but agree with you.

Perhaps you need to do more introspection before calling on others to do the same. As it stands right now you're completely deluded as to your true motivations for acting out the way you do.

(06-19-2011 04:07 PM)TOGC Wrote:  When I read Jesus's message, I see a message of compassion.

Quote:“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ "---Matthew 25:40.

Based on their comments, I can only believe that most conservatives, if they are Christian, adhere more closely to the Hellfire and Brimstone God of the Old Testament.

Jesus was compassionate towards the poor, the sick, the downtrodden. If the Bible has a shred of truth in it, there are going to be a lot of conservative Christians who are in for a rude awakening on judgement day.

Demanding that the government and your neighbors do as Jesus asked is not going to fly come judgement day.