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Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-19-2011 09:16 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I guess I should have known that. If there is one thing(well,2 actually) America is good at, it is making weapons and ammunition. Something to be proud of I guess.

*sigh*

Also within easy reach of where I type .... countless books ... vitamin supplements .... PS3 games .... the IP behind the GPU and CPU in my computer, my PS3, my ham radio, and my scientific calculator. A good chunk of the code in my Linux operating system on my desktop, my laptop, my router.... to say nothing of the US companies like Oracle and Red Hat who make money off it, or US companies like Dell and HP who sell a Linux box every second which again is supported by the aforementioned US companies and contains hardware that is IP from US companies like Intel and nVidia. I've got some New Balance shoes nearby as well. I am surrounded by SouthEast LinuxFest stuff (program guides, bags, tshirts, lanyards, badges) all sourced from and made by not just US manufacturers but specifically ones in the southeast. Behind me there are several full size real deal Georgia Tech helmets which are also USA made. There's also the National Geographics above me which are printed in the US and filled with stuff produced by US people. And my digital complete National Geographic Archives are made in the US and run on Adobe Air ... and Adobe is another giant US software maker. This website is being hosted in a US facility and served by US bandwidth providers and peering partners... and it too uses Linux and therefore is subject to the aforementioned US contributions within Linux. Boeing is trying to build a massive plant in my state if Obama and the NRLB would leave it alone. I'm a 10 minute drive from a massive BMW plant that makes every Z and X series worldwide, and huge amounts of what go into that car are sourced from local manufacturers and partners. Even the robots on the assembly line are coming from a local Staubli robotics plant/support office. I could go further but by now I hope you've gotten my point.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2011 09:36 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
06-19-2011 09:35 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-19-2011 09:35 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 09:16 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I guess I should have known that. If there is one thing(well,2 actually) America is good at, it is making weapons and ammunition. Something to be proud of I guess.

*sigh*

Also within easy reach of where I type .... countless books ... vitamin supplements .... PS3 games .... the IP behind the GPU and CPU in my computer, my PS3, my ham radio, and my scientific calculator. A good chunk of the code in my Linux operating system on my desktop, my laptop, my router.... to say nothing of the US companies like Oracle and Red Hat who make money off it, or US companies like Dell and HP who sell a Linux box every second which again is supported by the aforementioned US companies and contains hardware that is IP from US companies like Intel and nVidia. I've got some New Balance shoes nearby as well. I am surrounded by SouthEast LinuxFest stuff (program guides, bags, tshirts, lanyards, badges) all sourced from and made by not just US manufacturers but specifically ones in the southeast. Behind me there are several full size real deal Georgia Tech helmets which are also USA made. There's also the National Geographics above me which are printed in the US and filled with stuff produced by US people. And my digital complete National Geographic Archives are made in the US and run on Adobe Air ... and Adobe is another giant US software maker. This website is being hosted in a US facility and served by US bandwidth providers and peering partners... and it too uses Linux and therefore is subject to the aforementioned US contributions within Linux. Boeing is trying to build a massive plant in my state if Obama and the NRLB would leave it alone. I'm a 10 minute drive from a massive BMW plant that makes every Z and X series worldwide, and huge amounts of what go into that car are sourced from local manufacturers and partners. Even the robots on the assembly line are coming from a local Staubli robotics plant/support office. I could go further but by now I hope you've gotten my point.

That may be, but you wouldn't find it in your home...
06-20-2011 06:40 AM
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aTxTIGER Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-19-2011 08:24 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 08:08 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 12:58 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 12:20 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  Robert, we live in global economy. There is no changing that fact. Either you accept and adapt or you become a 3rd world nation. We have accepted it, unfortunately we havent adapted.
I see. You want us to become a third world country. Thanks for confirming what I already knew. Conservatives want to turn this into a third world country.

You truly have a reading disorder. I want us to accept and adapt to it. We havent adapted to it. We still have an economy that is frozen in a limbo between the old and new economy. No one in power(public or private sector, capital sector or labor) has the guts to do what needs to be done to fully reform our economy to where it needs to be.

If we continue on this path, we will become a 3rd world nation in the matter of a generation or two.
Well damn, we better speed it up. We need to drastically speed up the lowering wages to poverty level, implementing child labor and sweatshops! Is this seriously what you want to see this country become? I think it is sad that this is what you and the Republican party want this nation to become.

Wages are lowering because we have have a workforce who is incapable of doing jobs needed for a new economy. We have no engineers, no scientists, and no one willing to do jobs that require getting your hands dirty. We have 9% unemployment but hundreds of thousands of positions that can't be filled because there is no one qualified to take these positions. Instead, we have trained a workforce that basically wants to be paid 80k a year to sit behind a desk and push paper. Well, you know what? Those ******* jobs don't exist more.

We need to completely revamp our education system. Most kids can't and shouldn't go to college. So why do we put 95% of our kids through a college track? All you are doing is devaluing college degrees, making college more expensive, and creating a huge pool of dropouts that have no skills. At some point in a kids development, they need to either put in a college track or into a trade development program.
06-20-2011 09:49 AM
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RobertN Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-20-2011 09:49 AM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 08:24 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 08:08 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 12:58 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 12:20 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  Robert, we live in global economy. There is no changing that fact. Either you accept and adapt or you become a 3rd world nation. We have accepted it, unfortunately we havent adapted.
I see. You want us to become a third world country. Thanks for confirming what I already knew. Conservatives want to turn this into a third world country.

You truly have a reading disorder. I want us to accept and adapt to it. We havent adapted to it. We still have an economy that is frozen in a limbo between the old and new economy. No one in power(public or private sector, capital sector or labor) has the guts to do what needs to be done to fully reform our economy to where it needs to be.

If we continue on this path, we will become a 3rd world nation in the matter of a generation or two.
Well damn, we better speed it up. We need to drastically speed up the lowering wages to poverty level, implementing child labor and sweatshops! Is this seriously what you want to see this country become? I think it is sad that this is what you and the Republican party want this nation to become.

Wages are lowering because we have have a workforce who is incapable of doing jobs needed for a new economy. We have no engineers, no scientists, and no one willing to do jobs that require getting your hands dirty. We have 9% unemployment but hundreds of thousands of positions that can't be filled because there is no one qualified to take these positions. Instead, we have trained a workforce that basically wants to be paid 80k a year to sit behind a desk and push paper. Well, you know what? Those ******* jobs don't exist more.

We need to completely revamp our education system. Most kids can't and shouldn't go to college. So why do we put 95% of our kids through a college track? All you are doing is devaluing college degrees, making college more expensive, and creating a huge pool of dropouts that have no skills. At some point in a kids development, they need to either put in a college track or into a trade development program.
03-lmfao You sound like a Republican infomercial.
06-20-2011 10:57 AM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-19-2011 11:08 AM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  
(06-18-2011 09:09 PM)RobertN Wrote:  He gave a Republican response to the Presidents weekly address. He seems to think that America will grow faster with MORE free trade agreements! Is the man insane? Is he just stupid or is he just a corporate puppet?

yeah, the tariffs we've put on foreign ethanol, as well as sugar have really done the job. I guess the candy companies packed up and left for another reason. Maybe it was the weather

There is a difference between protecting those who already get government subsidies and dismantling your industrial infrastructure.

How many cars does South Korea let us put into their market? How has China fixing their currency affected us? When designing trade policy there needs to be a "Do unto others as they have done unto you" mentality.

Any nation that (1) Does its best to keep out good out of their market, (2) uses veritable slave labor, or (3) has no sense of human rights should not benefit from free trade with the US...

Some kids are not smart enough for professional jobs, and even the jobs that remain (construction) are largely filled by illegal labor.
06-20-2011 10:58 AM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-20-2011 09:49 AM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  Wages are lowering because we have have a workforce who is incapable of doing jobs needed for a new economy. We have no engineers, no scientists, and no one willing to do jobs that require getting your hands dirty. We have 9% unemployment but hundreds of thousands of positions that can't be filled because there is no one qualified to take these positions. Instead, we have trained a workforce that basically wants to be paid 80k a year to sit behind a desk and push paper. Well, you know what? Those ******* jobs don't exist more.

We need to completely revamp our education system. Most kids can't and shouldn't go to college. So why do we put 95% of our kids through a college track? All you are doing is devaluing college degrees, making college more expensive, and creating a huge pool of dropouts that have no skills. At some point in a kids development, they need to either put in a college track or into a trade development program.

Ax, As an engineer I can tell you that if I had it to do over again I would go into education or some other field. Why? Because every pinhead with an MBA thinks outsourcing is wonderful, despite the fact that many companies that outsource see a drop in quality.

The modern business cycle has two truths: peoples above the director level (AVP, VP, P, C) have a three to five year life cycle at a company. Secondly few, if any, of them gives a crap about the structural health of a company after they leave.

So the Engineers life goes like this: Get hired into a company that is growing a bit. Hit a bump (all companies do) and then the outsourcing begins. That engineer now supports an infrastructure being used by people in eight different time zones and has to deal with managements constant perception that they are overpaid.

Never mind the fact 19/20 developers hired over seas are at best borderline competent. The Engineer have to see the crap code throttle the infrastructure and take the blame themselves *WHILE* they have to teach the developer basic concepts of enterprise computing.
06-20-2011 11:07 AM
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aTxTIGER Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-20-2011 10:57 AM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-20-2011 09:49 AM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 08:24 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 08:08 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 12:58 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I see. You want us to become a third world country. Thanks for confirming what I already knew. Conservatives want to turn this into a third world country.

You truly have a reading disorder. I want us to accept and adapt to it. We havent adapted to it. We still have an economy that is frozen in a limbo between the old and new economy. No one in power(public or private sector, capital sector or labor) has the guts to do what needs to be done to fully reform our economy to where it needs to be.

If we continue on this path, we will become a 3rd world nation in the matter of a generation or two.
Well damn, we better speed it up. We need to drastically speed up the lowering wages to poverty level, implementing child labor and sweatshops! Is this seriously what you want to see this country become? I think it is sad that this is what you and the Republican party want this nation to become.

Wages are lowering because we have have a workforce who is incapable of doing jobs needed for a new economy. We have no engineers, no scientists, and no one willing to do jobs that require getting your hands dirty. We have 9% unemployment but hundreds of thousands of positions that can't be filled because there is no one qualified to take these positions. Instead, we have trained a workforce that basically wants to be paid 80k a year to sit behind a desk and push paper. Well, you know what? Those ******* jobs don't exist more.

We need to completely revamp our education system. Most kids can't and shouldn't go to college. So why do we put 95% of our kids through a college track? All you are doing is devaluing college degrees, making college more expensive, and creating a huge pool of dropouts that have no skills. At some point in a kids development, they need to either put in a college track or into a trade development program.
03-lmfao You sound like a Republican infomercial.

Maybe I do, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. You are telling me that in a country where we have a massive shortage of skilled workers but millions of unskilled unemployed that we did a good job over the last 30 years getting ready for the future?

People want the status quo on taxes, entitlements, education, defense, etc. While that status quo might have worked 30 years ago, the world has moved past.
06-20-2011 11:09 AM
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aTxTIGER Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-20-2011 11:07 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-20-2011 09:49 AM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  Wages are lowering because we have have a workforce who is incapable of doing jobs needed for a new economy. We have no engineers, no scientists, and no one willing to do jobs that require getting your hands dirty. We have 9% unemployment but hundreds of thousands of positions that can't be filled because there is no one qualified to take these positions. Instead, we have trained a workforce that basically wants to be paid 80k a year to sit behind a desk and push paper. Well, you know what? Those ******* jobs don't exist more.

We need to completely revamp our education system. Most kids can't and shouldn't go to college. So why do we put 95% of our kids through a college track? All you are doing is devaluing college degrees, making college more expensive, and creating a huge pool of dropouts that have no skills. At some point in a kids development, they need to either put in a college track or into a trade development program.

Ax, As an engineer I can tell you that if I had it to do over again I would go into education or some other field. Why? Because every pinhead with an MBA thinks outsourcing is wonderful, despite the fact that many companies that outsource see a drop in quality.

The modern business cycle has two truths: peoples above the director level (AVP, VP, P, C) have a three to five year life cycle at a company. Secondly few, if any, of them gives a crap about the structural health of a company after they leave.

So the Engineers life goes like this: Get hired into a company that is growing a bit. Hit a bump (all companies do) and then the outsourcing begins. That engineer now supports an infrastructure being used by people in eight different time zones and has to deal with managements constant perception that they are overpaid.

Never mind the fact 19/20 developers hired over seas are at best borderline competent. The Engineer have to see the crap code throttle the infrastructure and take the blame themselves *WHILE* they have to teach the developer basic concepts of enterprise computing.

Sorry, but outsourcing happens to everyone who works for a corporation. That doesnt mean we dont need more engineers(especially MechE, EE's, and BioMed Engs) to create the technologies that will drive our economy.
06-20-2011 11:12 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-19-2011 08:57 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 08:35 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Can you name ONE thing in your house that is made in the US(besides you and your family-though I don't know your family so they might not have been)?

Ammunition. And that's just 2 feet from where I'm currently typing. I didn't have to look too far for that at all.

The U.S makes more stuff now then ever.

I hate this "America doesn't make stuff anymore" narrative. It's pervasive, and it's also wrong

If you only look at consumer products, I guess more of those tchotches are made in China, but most manufacturing is industrial and clearly the U.S. has every other country beat. Dollar for dollar the U.S manufactures more stuff then any other country. In 2010 the U.S. made more stuff then Germany and China put together. Almost as much as China and Japan combined.

Here is a very off the top of my head so rather incomplete list:

Aerospace - even Airbus avionics are mostly sourced stateside. And orbital stuff, like satellites? USA.

Software - American software culture is waaaaay different than it is other places. Coders start out as cowboys, renegades who shoot from the hip, shipping sloppy product that's jaw-dropping in its innovation early in their career, and wind up as craftsmen, refining architecture and fixing he mistakes of youthful colleagues. This culture has not been successfully exported to other places.

Hardware - Name a microprocessor architecture not designed, refined and brought to market in the USA that has any marketshare at all, outside of the UK's ARM. Name a computing or networking platform that doesn't owe its existence to West Coast or Boston developers.

Cars - US factories are insanely productive, easily beating out European, Asian and South American factories in terms of units-per-manhour. Only the Australians come close. The problem with American cars has always been American management, which is some of the worst in the world in long-term strategy.

Aircraft Carriers (heh)

However if you only think in terms of specific products like the above, or looking at a specific city like a declining Detroit, that's just not going to get a very reliable estimate.

The aggregate industrial manufacturing base of the United States is enormous.
06-20-2011 11:15 AM
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RobertN Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-20-2011 11:09 AM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  
(06-20-2011 10:57 AM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-20-2011 09:49 AM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 08:24 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 08:08 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  You truly have a reading disorder. I want us to accept and adapt to it. We havent adapted to it. We still have an economy that is frozen in a limbo between the old and new economy. No one in power(public or private sector, capital sector or labor) has the guts to do what needs to be done to fully reform our economy to where it needs to be.

If we continue on this path, we will become a 3rd world nation in the matter of a generation or two.
Well damn, we better speed it up. We need to drastically speed up the lowering wages to poverty level, implementing child labor and sweatshops! Is this seriously what you want to see this country become? I think it is sad that this is what you and the Republican party want this nation to become.

Wages are lowering because we have have a workforce who is incapable of doing jobs needed for a new economy. We have no engineers, no scientists, and no one willing to do jobs that require getting your hands dirty. We have 9% unemployment but hundreds of thousands of positions that can't be filled because there is no one qualified to take these positions. Instead, we have trained a workforce that basically wants to be paid 80k a year to sit behind a desk and push paper. Well, you know what? Those ******* jobs don't exist more.

We need to completely revamp our education system. Most kids can't and shouldn't go to college. So why do we put 95% of our kids through a college track? All you are doing is devaluing college degrees, making college more expensive, and creating a huge pool of dropouts that have no skills. At some point in a kids development, they need to either put in a college track or into a trade development program.
03-lmfao You sound like a Republican infomercial.

Maybe I do, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. You are telling me that in a country where we have a massive shortage of skilled workers but millions of unskilled unemployed that we did a good job over the last 30 years getting ready for the future?

People want the status quo on taxes, entitlements, education, defense, etc. While that status quo might have worked 30 years ago, the world has moved past.
There are a LOT of unemployed skilled workers out there. They are unemployed because the big corps(such as Microsoft) bring in the skilled workers(claiming there aren't enough American workers) at half the cost of an American worker. So when a American worker gets the job, they have to take a salary half of what they used to make.I will give you that there are probably a large number of unskilled workers unemployed which is pushing wages down.
06-20-2011 11:24 AM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-20-2011 11:12 AM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  Sorry, but outsourcing happens to everyone who works for a corporation. That doesnt mean we dont need more engineers(especially MechE, EE's, and BioMed Engs) to create the technologies that will drive our economy.

And why would one go into that field when *everyone* gets outsourced.
06-20-2011 11:31 AM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
Obabba is in control of the HB-1 workers program. Why does he allow this to drive worker wages down and take jobs from Americans and give it to foreigners? Seems to me Roberta, you are too far in the weeds to be a cheerleader for a socialist in a monkey suit.
06-20-2011 12:04 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-20-2011 11:15 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 08:57 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(06-19-2011 08:35 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Can you name ONE thing in your house that is made in the US(besides you and your family-though I don't know your family so they might not have been)?

Ammunition. And that's just 2 feet from where I'm currently typing. I didn't have to look too far for that at all.

The U.S makes more stuff now then ever.

I hate this "America doesn't make stuff anymore" narrative. It's pervasive, and it's also wrong

If you only look at consumer products, I guess more of those tchotches are made in China, but most manufacturing is industrial and clearly the U.S. has every other country beat. Dollar for dollar the U.S manufactures more stuff then any other country. In 2010 the U.S. made more stuff then Germany and China put together. Almost as much as China and Japan combined.

Here is a very off the top of my head so rather incomplete list:

Aerospace - even Airbus avionics are mostly sourced stateside. And orbital stuff, like satellites? USA.

Software - American software culture is waaaaay different than it is other places. Coders start out as cowboys, renegades who shoot from the hip, shipping sloppy product that's jaw-dropping in its innovation early in their career, and wind up as craftsmen, refining architecture and fixing he mistakes of youthful colleagues. This culture has not been successfully exported to other places.

Hardware - Name a microprocessor architecture not designed, refined and brought to market in the USA that has any marketshare at all, outside of the UK's ARM. Name a computing or networking platform that doesn't owe its existence to West Coast or Boston developers.

Cars - US factories are insanely productive, easily beating out European, Asian and South American factories in terms of units-per-manhour. Only the Australians come close. The problem with American cars has always been American management, which is some of the worst in the world in long-term strategy.

Aircraft Carriers (heh)

However if you only think in terms of specific products like the above, or looking at a specific city like a declining Detroit, that's just not going to get a very reliable estimate.

The aggregate industrial manufacturing base of the United States is enormous.

Nice list, although I figured you for more of an "artisanal flower soap" guy.
06-20-2011 02:10 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
We import more than we export by a margin so great the we exceed the net imports of all the 100 or so other net importing countries combined. Think about what that says and let it sink in.

No matter how many factoids you cite to stand for the proposition that American manufacturing if alive and well, that fact alone says we have a problem.
06-20-2011 02:32 PM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-20-2011 02:10 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Nice list, although I figured you for more of an "artisanal flower soap" guy.

I'm a conservative living inside the liberal fort of Minneapolis. I have to have certain left center tendencies in order to not be strung up from the nearest lightpole.

The last artisanal soap I bought was up in Bayfield WI, a number of years ago. Up close to Madeline Island. It was made with mint and was outstandingly refreshing and quite invigorating....

03-snooty
06-20-2011 02:35 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-20-2011 02:32 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We import more than we export by a margin so great the we exceed the net imports of all the 100 or so other net importing countries combined. Think about what that says and let it sink in.

No matter how many factoids you cite to stand for the proposition that American manufacturing if alive and well, that fact alone says we have a problem.

But is the trade imbalance truly a result of an eroded manufacturing base, or is it more of a consumption problem? What is the average credit card debt per credit card circulating in the U.S., $14K per card?
06-20-2011 02:49 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Mr. Hoeven from N. Dakota
(06-20-2011 02:35 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(06-20-2011 02:10 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Nice list, although I figured you for more of an "artisanal flower soap" guy.

I'm a conservative living inside the liberal fort of Minneapolis. I have to have certain left center tendencies in order to not be strung up from the nearest lightpole.

The last artisanal soap I bought was up in Bayfield WI, a number of years ago. Up close to Madeline Island. It was made with mint and was outstandingly refreshing and quite invigorating....

03-snooty

You need a lesson or two or three from this guy, pu$sy03-lmfao03-lmfao

06-20-2011 03:02 PM
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