So FAU has switched to a 3-4 D this year since we have been unable to pick up the DLine size and strength we need to get penetration. It is also much easier to recruit LB's the Dlineman in S. Florida.

I recall someone saying that for this D to work you need a monster nose tackle. What is the definition of that? Pure size? Aggression?

Below is the 2 deep for FAU going into Spring Practice next week at NT. Obviously hiehts and weights are from last year.

96 jean jimmy Jean, Jimmy 4 RS SO 74 6-2 290 DL


93 givens jarvis Givens, Jarvis 6 RS JR 75 6-3 305 DT


Do these two have the size to pull that critical position off?

Worked well for the past two national champs.
Terrence Cody is 6'4" and was well over 350.
Nick Fairley is 6'5" 300.

But they also have to have quick feet and be able to take on multiple blockers. It is a big numbers game. If one big man can hold his ground and occupy two OL, then that theoretically frees up a LB to make the play without being blocked. And maybe they don't get penetration, but creating a wall where they are means less up the middle, forcing the RB to bounce outside, and, again, freeing up a LB to make the play. I know that is a simple, dumbed down version, but size is definitely a factor, but athleticism also comes into play.

The bigger the better in a 3-4. Coaches prefer a space-eater (300 to 350 pounder) because the 3-4 is all about gap control. If your noseguard can control one or both A gaps between the OGs then your linebackers can run to QB or Ballcarrier through those gaps. When your NG is not able to control either gap it becomes a nightmare and you get opposing RB's giving your LBs the Heisman pose as they run for 150 yds.

(03-24-2011 05:25 PM)panama Wrote:  The bigger the better in a 3-4. Coaches prefer a space-eater (300 to 350 pounder) because the 3-4 is all about gap control. If your noseguard can control one or both A gaps between the OGs then your linebackers can run to QB or Ballcarrier through those gaps. When your NG is not able to control either gap it becomes a nightmare and you get opposing RB's giving your LBs the Heisman pose as they run for 150 yds.

Totally agree! The same is the case with ULM's 3-3-5 defense. If we don't find some size to fill that NT spot, our D will be run on quite regularly. When we had a 6' 290 lbs. Aaron Williams at that spot, we were one of the best run defenses in the SBC.

(03-24-2011 07:25 PM)bluephi1914 Wrote:  

(03-24-2011 05:25 PM)panama Wrote:  The bigger the better in a 3-4. Coaches prefer a space-eater (300 to 350 pounder) because the 3-4 is all about gap control. If your noseguard can control one or both A gaps between the OGs then your linebackers can run to QB or Ballcarrier through those gaps. When your NG is not able to control either gap it becomes a nightmare and you get opposing RB's giving your LBs the Heisman pose as they run for 150 yds.

Totally agree! The same is the case with ULM's 3-3-5 defense. If we don't find some size to fill that NT spot, our D will be run on quite regularly. When we had a 6' 290 lbs. Aaron Williams at that spot, we were one of the best run defenses in the SBC.

We got run on all year last year even by teams like Shorter, Morehead State and Campbell that had no business being on the field with us just because we could never control those two gaps. Our linebackers are the most talented group on the roster but it means nothing if an OG is meeting you 5 yards upfield.

(03-24-2011 03:03 PM)RDA Trojan Wrote:  Worked well for the past two national champs.
Terrence Cody is 6'4" and was well over 350.
Nick Fairley is 6'5" 300.

But they also have to have quick feet and be able to take on multiple blockers. It is a big numbers game. If one big man can hold his ground and occupy two OL, then that theoretically frees up a LB to make the play without being blocked. And maybe they don't get penetration, but creating a wall where they are means less up the middle, forcing the RB to bounce outside, and, again, freeing up a LB to make the play. I know that is a simple, dumbed down version, but size is definitely a factor, but athleticism also comes into play.

Auburn ran a 4-3 buddy so the responsibilities were a little different but you are right on the 3-4 DL essentially occupying OL.

To the OP:

D-Linemen in a 3-4 are usually responsible for playing run first and then getting pressure. They need to be strong enough to hold up against double teams or at minimum the nose tackle must be.

A 3-4 is what is known as a "2 Gap" Defense as the D-linemen have responsibility for the gaps on either side of the OL they line up across from.



Guys that are examples of NFL players that fit this scheme:

Nose- Vince Wilfork (Patriots), Casey Hamption (Steelers), and BJ Raji (Packers)

End- Richard Seymour (When he was with the Pats), Brett Keisel (Steelers), and Ziggy Hood (Steelers).

Outside LBs are usually bigger in a 3-4 Defense and have to be able to rush the passer and stand up and cover in pass D. Examples of NFL guys at this position are:
DeMarcus Ware - Cowboys
Shawn Merriman - Chargers
James Harrison - Steelers
Mike Vrabel - Former Patriot
Clay Matthews - Packers

In a 4-3 defense you are running a 1 gap defense and can get away with slightly smaller & quicker DL as you aren't making them responsible for taking on double teams.

4-3 GAPS:


Most guys on the nose will be big space eaters anyway but it is not a neccessity. The DT (Lined up outside the RG in the pic) is the guy who is usually smaller and quicker if you have to choose. All 3 of the 3-4 DE's I listed would play it for a 4-3 defense as Seymour actually does now that he is with the Raiders. The guys lined up here typically are the better interior pass rushers. Teams will usually want someone near 300 pounds but if they cannot find them with enough quickness they often put guys in the 265-285 range in this position at the college level. Texas had to do this with Alex Okafor last year and 2001-2002 Miami had 270 pound Matt Walters playing that position for them.

4-3 DE's are the big pass rushers for the 4-3 defense and in the NFL typically are in the 255-275 range. Guys like Michael Strahan, Simeon Rice, Bruce Smith, Dwight Freeney, and Julius Peppers are examples of this position in the NFL.

OLBs- Can be a lot smaller than 3-4 OLBs since they don't have to be the main pass rush guys. Examples of smaller NFL OLBs are:
Dexter Coakley- Former Cowboy
Derrick Brooks- Bucs
London Fletcher- Former Ram


You can usually find decent LBs than finding elite DL so we'll see how it works. You have to have strong DL to make this work so they may be sacrificing some speed in order to get the strength required as its probably too tough to consistently recruit the guys who can do it all. They would then theoretically get some LBs with speed and bulk up a couple to make suitable OLBs for them.

So hopefully that helps explain things.

(03-25-2011 09:01 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(03-24-2011 03:03 PM)RDA Trojan Wrote:  Worked well for the past two national champs.
Terrence Cody is 6'4" and was well over 350.
Nick Fairley is 6'5" 300.

But they also have to have quick feet and be able to take on multiple blockers. It is a big numbers game. If one big man can hold his ground and occupy two OL, then that theoretically frees up a LB to make the play without being blocked. And maybe they don't get penetration, but creating a wall where they are means less up the middle, forcing the RB to bounce outside, and, again, freeing up a LB to make the play. I know that is a simple, dumbed down version, but size is definitely a factor, but athleticism also comes into play.

Auburn ran a 4-3 buddy so the responsibilities were a little different but you are right on the 3-4 DL essentially occupying OL.

To the OP:

D-Linemen in a 3-4 are usually responsible for playing run first and then getting pressure. They need to be strong enough to hold up against double teams or at minimum the nose tackle must be.

A 3-4 is what is known as a "2 Gap" Defense as the D-linemen have responsibility for the gaps on either side of the OL they line up across from.



Guys that are examples of NFL players that fit this scheme:

Nose- Vince Wilfork (Patriots), Casey Hamption (Steelers), and BJ Raji (Packers)

End- Richard Seymour (When he was with the Pats), Brett Keisel (Steelers), and Ziggy Hood (Steelers).

Outside LBs are usually bigger in a 3-4 Defense and have to be able to rush the passer and stand up and cover in pass D. Examples of NFL guys at this position are:
DeMarcus Ware - Cowboys
Shawn Merriman - Chargers
James Harrison - Steelers
Mike Vrabel - Former Patriot
Clay Matthews - Packers

In a 4-3 defense you are running a 1 gap defense and can get away with slightly smaller & quicker DL as you aren't making them responsible for taking on double teams.

4-3 GAPS:


Most guys on the nose will be big space eaters anyway but it is not a neccessity. The DT (Lined up outside the RG in the pic) is the guy who is usually smaller and quicker if you have to choose. All 3 of the 3-4 DE's I listed would play it for a 4-3 defense as Seymour actually does now that he is with the Raiders. The guys lined up here typically are the better interior pass rushers. Teams will usually want someone near 300 pounds but if they cannot find them with enough quickness they often put guys in the 265-285 range in this position at the college level. Texas had to do this with Alex Okafor last year and 2001-2002 Miami had 270 pound Matt Walters playing that position for them.

4-3 DE's are the big pass rushers for the 4-3 defense and in the NFL typically are in the 255-275 range. Guys like Michael Strahan, Simeon Rice, Bruce Smith, Dwight Freeney, and Julius Peppers are examples of this position in the NFL.

OLBs- Can be a lot smaller than 3-4 OLBs since they don't have to be the main pass rush guys. Examples of smaller NFL OLBs are:
Dexter Coakley- Former Cowboy
Derrick Brooks- Bucs
London Fletcher- Former Ram


You can usually find decent LBs than finding elite DL so we'll see how it works. You have to have strong DL to make this work so they may be sacrificing some speed in order to get the strength required as its probably too tough to consistently recruit the guys who can do it all. They would then theoretically get some LBs with speed and bulk up a couple to make suitable OLBs for them.

So hopefully that helps explain things.

I need a whiteboard...lmao. I love this stuff

I think the bigger problem with running a 3-4 is finding that NT in every other class or so. If you miss on a few players a couple years in a row, you can find yourself scrambling to find that NT that is so pivotal. One year you may find yourself going into the fall with a 5-10 280lb NT...which would be problematic in conference and a virtual assurance of never getting anywhere near the backfield in games against power six conference teams.

(03-25-2011 10:04 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  I think the bigger problem with running a 3-4 is finding that NT in every other class or so. If you miss on a few players a couple years in a row, you can find yourself scrambling to find that NT that is so pivotal. One year you may find yourself going into the fall with a 5-10 280lb NT...which would be problematic in conference and a virtual assurance of never getting anywhere near the backfield in games against power six conference teams.

I don't think the issue with the NT is getting in the backfield, its making sure the NT doesn't end up getting moved the other way from the line of scrimmage. A 3-4 D can let other players mainly get in the backfield.

A good comparison is SMU's defense that also uses the 3-4.

They really had 3 key issues on their D this past year:

1- Their NT (Torlan Pittman) was suspended prior to the season. The had to slide Marquis Frazier inside who was a DE in 09.

2- As a result they really had only 3 DL (Hunt @ DE, Thompson @ DE, Frazier @ NT) that were good enough to hold up for them over the season and depth became a bigger issue without Pittman.

3- This is a bigger issue due to their use of smaller LBs

SMU's average size per position on the 2 deep:

DE: 6'6 270
NT: 6'3 290
OLBs: 6'2 225
ILBs: 6'3 216

I expect a school with the recruiting profile of the SBC to have a similar setup and issues. I don't think finding 3 good DL to play the position will be tough, it will be tough to find 6 to 8 guys that are more than just big guys with little athleticism.

(03-25-2011 10:20 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(03-25-2011 10:04 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  I think the bigger problem with running a 3-4 is finding that NT in every other class or so. If you miss on a few players a couple years in a row, you can find yourself scrambling to find that NT that is so pivotal. One year you may find yourself going into the fall with a 5-10 280lb NT...which would be problematic in conference and a virtual assurance of never getting anywhere near the backfield in games against power six conference teams.

I don't think the issue with the NT is getting in the backfield, its making sure the NT doesn't end up getting moved the other way from the line of scrimmage. A 3-4 D can let other players mainly get in the backfield.

I don't think that's the issue either, perhaps I worded that incorrectly, because obviously outside of freak of nature DT's defenses aren't usually predicated on the DT or NT getting into the backfield, that said, nearly everyone else getting into the backfield is predicated upon the success of the NT. It's hard to run inside linebacker blitzes when your NT is being pushed around. It's hard to run outside linebacker blitzes when your NT isn't commanding a double team.

(03-25-2011 10:57 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(03-25-2011 10:20 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(03-25-2011 10:04 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  I think the bigger problem with running a 3-4 is finding that NT in every other class or so. If you miss on a few players a couple years in a row, you can find yourself scrambling to find that NT that is so pivotal. One year you may find yourself going into the fall with a 5-10 280lb NT...which would be problematic in conference and a virtual assurance of never getting anywhere near the backfield in games against power six conference teams.

I don't think the issue with the NT is getting in the backfield, its making sure the NT doesn't end up getting moved the other way from the line of scrimmage. A 3-4 D can let other players mainly get in the backfield.

I don't think that's the issue either, perhaps I worded that incorrectly, because obviously outside of freak of nature DT's defenses aren't usually predicated on the DT or NT getting into the backfield, that said, nearly everyone else getting into the backfield is predicated upon the success of the NT. It's hard to run inside linebacker blitzes when your NT is being pushed around. It's hard to run outside linebacker blitzes when your NT isn't commanding a double team.

Fair enough, it does limit the inside stuff significantly and forces you to almost overload blitz with the OLBs.

I guess it was the wording that jumped out to me.

(03-25-2011 11:06 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(03-25-2011 10:57 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(03-25-2011 10:20 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(03-25-2011 10:04 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  I think the bigger problem with running a 3-4 is finding that NT in every other class or so. If you miss on a few players a couple years in a row, you can find yourself scrambling to find that NT that is so pivotal. One year you may find yourself going into the fall with a 5-10 280lb NT...which would be problematic in conference and a virtual assurance of never getting anywhere near the backfield in games against power six conference teams.

I don't think the issue with the NT is getting in the backfield, its making sure the NT doesn't end up getting moved the other way from the line of scrimmage. A 3-4 D can let other players mainly get in the backfield.

I don't think that's the issue either, perhaps I worded that incorrectly, because obviously outside of freak of nature DT's defenses aren't usually predicated on the DT or NT getting into the backfield, that said, nearly everyone else getting into the backfield is predicated upon the success of the NT. It's hard to run inside linebacker blitzes when your NT is being pushed around. It's hard to run outside linebacker blitzes when your NT isn't commanding a double team.

Fair enough, it does limit the inside stuff significantly and forces you to almost overload blitz with the OLBs.

I guess it was the wording that jumped out to me.

And when you overload on OLB blitzes and your NT is getting pushed around, it's a recipe for giving up about 7-10 yards a carry up the middle without any real issue.

(03-25-2011 11:09 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(03-25-2011 11:06 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(03-25-2011 10:57 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(03-25-2011 10:20 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(03-25-2011 10:04 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  I think the bigger problem with running a 3-4 is finding that NT in every other class or so. If you miss on a few players a couple years in a row, you can find yourself scrambling to find that NT that is so pivotal. One year you may find yourself going into the fall with a 5-10 280lb NT...which would be problematic in conference and a virtual assurance of never getting anywhere near the backfield in games against power six conference teams.

I don't think the issue with the NT is getting in the backfield, its making sure the NT doesn't end up getting moved the other way from the line of scrimmage. A 3-4 D can let other players mainly get in the backfield.

I don't think that's the issue either, perhaps I worded that incorrectly, because obviously outside of freak of nature DT's defenses aren't usually predicated on the DT or NT getting into the backfield, that said, nearly everyone else getting into the backfield is predicated upon the success of the NT. It's hard to run inside linebacker blitzes when your NT is being pushed around. It's hard to run outside linebacker blitzes when your NT isn't commanding a double team.

Fair enough, it does limit the inside stuff significantly and forces you to almost overload blitz with the OLBs.

I guess it was the wording that jumped out to me.

And when you overload on OLB blitzes and your NT is getting pushed around, it's a recipe for giving up about 7-10 yards a carry up the middle without any real issue.

Very true.

So basically the two guys I listed on the two deep have the size/weight to play the position (espeically since those are 2010 numbers and they may of added or grown for this year).

Its simply a matter of getting them used to the positions role of tying up 2 guys in stead of just one.

(03-25-2011 01:15 PM)OwlFamily Wrote:  So basically the two guys I listed on the two deep have the size/weight to play the position (espeically since those are 2010 numbers and they may of added or grown for this year).

Its simply a matter of getting them used to the positions role of tying up 2 guys in stead of just one.

A double-team is not something done just for the sake of doing it...the defensive player has to "command" that attention. If the strength and quickness aren't there, the center or guard can block 1 on 1...

Ex. TROY vs MTSU 2010...our DL allowed the LBs to make plays all night, but against FIU, the missed gap assignment busts and good blocking produced the exact opposite effect.

(03-25-2011 01:15 PM)OwlFamily Wrote:  So basically the two guys I listed on the two deep have the size/weight to play the position (espeically since those are 2010 numbers and they may of added or grown for this year).

Its simply a matter of getting them used to the positions role of tying up 2 guys in stead of just one.

I think they have about as good size as you're going to able to recruit to play NT at FAU. There just aren't that many guys like Terrence Cody or John Jenkins(current UGA signee 6'4 340) out there. Alabama only has four defensive lineman on their roster right now over 300lbs.

Offensive and defensive systems are cyclical and tend go move in trends across all levels. If this trend continues then you'll see more high schools switch to the 3-4 which in turn will mean more true NT prospects coming up through the ranks.

The thing is, playing NT in a 3-4 is a totally different mentality than playing DT in a 4-3. This has been one of the major issues with the failed Albert Haynesworth experiment in D.C., he made it very clear he wasn't interested in playing NT in a 3-4.

Now I doubt any of the kids at FAU were recruited heavily enough to have the ego to get that upset about making the switch(upset enough to consider transferring that is), but that doesn't mean that they might not be a little disheartened by the switch. The thing is, if you have even the slightest "me first" inclination it's very difficult to play NT as it's difficult to accumulate stats at the position, you have to be okay with being a facilitator for the rest of the defensive unit. The mentality required is not unlike that required of your offensive lineman, offensive lineman take pride in creating the gaps that spring the 60 yard touchdown runs, as a NT, you have to able to take pride in creating the blitz gaps that result in the big sacks. You will occasionally get through and make big plays on your own, but it's much more of a team mentality and facilitator role than playing DT in a 4-3. And the kids can be upset about it without necessarily suffering from a "me first" mentality, I could easily see a kid thinking having a more difficult time putting up individual stats would mean a more difficult time getting noticed by NFL scouts. The opposite mentality, which needs to be instilled in these kids, is with the NFL trending towards 3-4 and with not too many FBS schools playing the 3-4, you could be more likely to be noticed so the NFL teams don't have to draft and convert 4-3 DTs.

Gonna be an interesting spring practice for FAU for sure with two huge questions.

1.) Who will be the starting QB
2.) Can the D switch from 4-3 to 3-4?

Expect FAU to have anoter season in the 4-5 wins range again.

(03-25-2011 02:08 PM)OwlFamily Wrote:  Gonna be an interesting spring practice for FAU for sure with two huge questions.

1.) Who will be the starting QB
2.) Can the D switch from 4-3 to 3-4?

Expect FAU to have another season in the 4-5 wins range again.

and will we find a receiver to catch a ball or two?

(03-25-2011 09:01 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  Auburn ran a 4-3 buddy so the responsibilities were a little different but you are right on the 3-4 DL essentially occupying OL.

Shows how much attention I paid to them last year!

(03-25-2011 01:40 PM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  The thing is, if you have even the slightest "me first" inclination it's very difficult to play NT as it's difficult to accumulate stats at the position, you have to be okay with being a facilitator for the rest of the defensive unit. The mentality required is not unlike that required of your offensive lineman, offensive lineman take pride in creating the gaps that spring the 60 yard touchdown runs, as a NT, you have to able to take pride in creating the blitz gaps that result in the big sacks.

Bingo. Think Jim Burt from the 80's NY Giants. That's the attitude you want in a NG.