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US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #61
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
Redwing,


There's an ignore button under your user cp. It's a good place to put some bottom feeders who just interested in raking muck. A couple of weeks and you'll figure it out.
02-15-2011 05:47 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 05:35 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 04:01 PM)chess Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 02:48 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Just something to think about:

Federally, I'm in the 28% tax bracket ($82,400 to 171,850) although I'll probably pay a little less. California taxes me at 9.3% for each dollar I earn and then re-taxes me at 8.75% when I try to spend what's left. My property tax rate is 1.2% on a 650k home but that doesn't include nearly 2 dozen special assessments with schools being the biggest ones. There are hidden taxes built in to smokes (87 cents per pack) and booze ($3.30 per gallon for the hard stuff and .20 per beer) and when I buy them I pay sales tax on the hidden taxes. My taxes supposedly pay for roads but if I want to use a few of them I have to pay tolls and if I want to park I have to feed the meter - these are double taxes. My utilities bills have a variety of taxes and special assessments. My vehicle registration tax is 1.15% and I have two cars. A fee has been added to my home owners insurance to help pay for fire protection for areas hundreds of miles from me. The combined state/federal tax on gas is 66.1 cents per gallon. There is a special fee charged to all new tires sold. There's an E-waste fee. The list is endless.

When you look at this, the government in all its incarnations, ends up with more of my money than I do. How can anyone justify raising taxes? If the government can take this much from me and a lot more from people who make a lot more than me then they just don't know what they're doing. To think that some of my money is in one of Murbarak's bank accounts just pisses me off.

California really is a special kind of Hell.

Yeah, it is. And just when you think it can't get crazier California has a tire inflation law that, if not followed by repair shops, said repair shops can be fined and jail sentences issued. Think I'm batshit crazy? Click here to see that I'm not.

At least you get nice weather there! But yea, it sounds like the moonbats that Rebel complains about are taking over.
02-15-2011 06:12 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #63
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 05:47 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Redwing,


There's an ignore button under your user cp. It's a good place to put some bottom feeders who just interested in raking muck. A couple of weeks and you'll figure it out.

Who and why should he ignore anyone?
02-15-2011 06:18 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #64
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 05:20 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 04:48 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 04:16 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 03:55 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 02:29 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  UNREAL.

That's a VERY tortured perspective of reality. Paying somebody 1/3 the wage they would get making a car ... performing a service ... or doing damn near anything of value ... so they can sit at home and do nothing. As for the rest of the 2/3 of the value that's lost in that mix? Well apparently that doesn't matter. Certainly if they had a job they wouldn't be spending a dime more than they would on welfare, right?

Whoaaa, hold on. I wasn't endorsing these things as a means to permanent existence on them...LOL

I'm just saying that studies show that for every dollar spent by the government on these things returns far more to the economy than tax cuts for the top tax brackets do.

It's on Page 18 of the CBO report: Policies for Increasing Economic Growth and
Employment in 2010 and 2011

So the quickest way to recovery and prosperity is for all of us to go on unemployment.

Yep! That's exactly what I meant!03-drunk

I'm not the one on the sauce babbling about how people feeding at the government teat stimulates the economy.

What exactly do you think happens to the money they spend? Does the money rich people spend magically do something else?
02-15-2011 07:16 PM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #65
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
Anyone here think Obama's 2012 budget is anything but a punt? Presidents are supposed to be leaders.
02-15-2011 07:26 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #66
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 07:26 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Anyone here think Obama's 2012 budget is anything but a punt? Presidents are supposed to be leaders.

Yep, hand a huge budget to Congress, let them carve it up, and then he gets to blame them when people complain.
02-15-2011 07:28 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #67
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 07:16 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 05:20 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 04:48 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 04:16 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 03:55 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Whoaaa, hold on. I wasn't endorsing these things as a means to permanent existence on them...LOL

I'm just saying that studies show that for every dollar spent by the government on these things returns far more to the economy than tax cuts for the top tax brackets do.

It's on Page 18 of the CBO report: Policies for Increasing Economic Growth and
Employment in 2010 and 2011

So the quickest way to recovery and prosperity is for all of us to go on unemployment.

Yep! That's exactly what I meant!03-drunk

I'm not the one on the sauce babbling about how people feeding at the government teat stimulates the economy.

What exactly do you think happens to the money they spend? Does the money rich people spend magically do something else?

Where do you think this money comes from?
02-15-2011 08:04 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #68
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 06:18 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 05:47 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Redwing,


There's an ignore button under your user cp. It's a good place to put some bottom feeders who just interested in raking muck. A couple of weeks and you'll figure it out.

Who and why should he ignore anyone?

By the way, if you did so choose to put anyone on ignore, I wrote a short, simple how-to that's posted at the top of the forum under Important Threads. It was written for those who wanted to ignore Mach and Robert N but you aren't limited to just them on a list. 03-shhhh
02-15-2011 08:57 PM
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NIU05 Offline
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Post: #69
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
There is no way out of this sick MFer....We are in a Depression right now masked by printing trillions. The day is upon us...

The Fed ...The Banks...Uncle Sam ...Enron.....Madoff.....ALL with phony financials. There is not a damn bit of difference. LIARS ...F^^^ing LIARS...
02-15-2011 10:06 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #70
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
We have to balance the budget, close the trade imbalance, and make the USA a better place to invest and do business. Until those things happen, we are not going to have a permanent recovery. We can pump enough money into the system to fake it for a while, but that only lasts a while, and the more of that we do, the worse off we are when midnight comes and things turn back into a pumpkin.
02-15-2011 11:56 PM
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Mr. Peanut Offline
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Post: #71
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 12:49 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 12:43 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Redwing

The majority here won't even read that link. They "feel" tax rates decreasing will raise revenue. It's an opinion based on "emotion".

How dare you bring facts into this argument. HOW DARE YOU, SIR!

I guess you missed the part about how tax revenues went up during the Reagan years, even when tax rates were going down. Tax rates going up might not guarantee that revenues go down, but it doesn't guarantee they'll go up either, because it hasn't always happened that way in the past, so it can't be counted on as a sure fix. You can keep thinking it, but that doesn't make it true.

I guess you missed the part where Reagan tripled the national debt
02-16-2011 07:58 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #72
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 07:16 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 05:20 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 04:48 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 04:16 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 03:55 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Whoaaa, hold on. I wasn't endorsing these things as a means to permanent existence on them...LOL

I'm just saying that studies show that for every dollar spent by the government on these things returns far more to the economy than tax cuts for the top tax brackets do.

It's on Page 18 of the CBO report: Policies for Increasing Economic Growth and
Employment in 2010 and 2011

So the quickest way to recovery and prosperity is for all of us to go on unemployment.

Yep! That's exactly what I meant!03-drunk

I'm not the one on the sauce babbling about how people feeding at the government teat stimulates the economy.

What exactly do you think happens to the money they spend? Does the money rich people spend magically do something else?

You're missing half of the story
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...76276.html
02-16-2011 08:46 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #73
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 07:16 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  What exactly do you think happens to the money they spend? Does the money rich people spend magically do something else?

Actually, yes, it does.

The "poor" spend almost all of their money on consumption. If the money goes for cheap electronics made in China, it doesn't stay in our economy very long. But that's still a good thing, we are told, because that means economic activity, and in the short run that's probably right.

The "rich" spend less on consumption, but invest more. If they put it in a bank, the bank has more to lend. If they invest it in domestic production facilities, that keeps more consumption spending at home and creates more jobs for Americans.

So, let's look at where we are.
We have tried to solve every economic problem for the last 50 years by stimulating demand.
We consume a higher percentage of our national income, and save/invest less, than almost any other country.
We are the world's largest importing nation, by an incredible margin. Of the 160 or so world countries, about 60 are net exporters and about 100 are net importers, and our net imports exceed those of the other 100 net importers combined.
We are the world's largest debtor nation. The federal government's portion of that debt is approaching levels that are historically unsustainable.
Our last two economic recoveries have been "jobless."
The current recession was precipitated because banks ran out of money to lend.

In short, the supply-demand balance is out of kilter. Wall Street and the government are both trying to paper over and pretend that everything is hunky-dory. But it's not.

Stimulating demand may produce short term feel good. Or it may not, as we may be so far out on the demand curve that it's like giving dope to an addict.

The fix is not going to be pretty.
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2011 09:34 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-16-2011 09:34 AM
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BlazerFan11 Offline
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Post: #74
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-16-2011 07:58 AM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 12:49 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 12:43 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Redwing

The majority here won't even read that link. They "feel" tax rates decreasing will raise revenue. It's an opinion based on "emotion".

How dare you bring facts into this argument. HOW DARE YOU, SIR!

I guess you missed the part about how tax revenues went up during the Reagan years, even when tax rates were going down. Tax rates going up might not guarantee that revenues go down, but it doesn't guarantee they'll go up either, because it hasn't always happened that way in the past, so it can't be counted on as a sure fix. You can keep thinking it, but that doesn't make it true.

I guess you missed the part where Reagan tripled the national debt

That isn't relevant to the conversation. The conversation is about tax rates and their effects on tax revenues. Try to keep up.
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2011 10:01 AM by BlazerFan11.)
02-16-2011 10:00 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #75
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-16-2011 09:34 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 07:16 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  What exactly do you think happens to the money they spend? Does the money rich people spend magically do something else?

Actually, yes, it does.

The "poor" spend almost all of their money on consumption. If the money goes for cheap electronics made in China, it doesn't stay in our economy very long. But that's still a good thing, we are told, because that means economic activity, and in the short run that's probably right.

The "rich" spend less on consumption, but invest more. If they put it in a bank, the bank has more to lend. If they invest it in domestic production facilities, that keeps more consumption spending at home and creates more jobs for Americans.

So, let's look at where we are.
We have tried to solve every economic problem for the last 50 years by stimulating demand.
We consume a higher percentage of our national income, and save/invest less, than almost any other country.
We are the world's largest importing nation, by an incredible margin. Of the 160 or so world countries, about 60 are net exporters and about 100 are net importers, and our net imports exceed those of the other 100 net importers combined.
We are the world's largest debtor nation. The federal government's portion of that debt is approaching levels that are historically unsustainable.
Our last two economic recoveries have been "jobless."
The current recession was precipitated because banks ran out of money to lend.

In short, the supply-demand balance is out of kilter. Wall Street and the government are both trying to paper over and pretend that everything is hunky-dory. But it's not.

Stimulating demand may produce short term feel good. Or it may not, as we may be so far out on the demand curve that it's like giving dope to an addict.

The fix is not going to be pretty.

Believe me, I totally understand that and agree that the fix won't be easy and it certainly is not going to happen any time soon.

Again, I was not trying to defend these programs. Just stating facts that they do have an immediate effect on the economy with a return on investment far greater than that of a tax cut to the wealthy. Again, according to studies from the CBO.

It has to be a gradual retreat from these programs coupled with sustained growth by the private sector. If we just cut massive chunks of government programs without the private sector picking up those massive chunks we could be in for an even bigger mess.

And let me make the point again...I am not endorsing these programs as a permanent fix...only for the short-term for those who lost their jobs because of economical factors that they had little control over.
02-16-2011 10:19 AM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #76
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-16-2011 09:34 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 07:16 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  What exactly do you think happens to the money they spend? Does the money rich people spend magically do something else?

Actually, yes, it does.

The "poor" spend almost all of their money on consumption. If the money goes for cheap electronics made in China, it doesn't stay in our economy very long. But that's still a good thing, we are told, because that means economic activity, and in the short run that's probably right.

The "rich" spend less on consumption, but invest more. If they put it in a bank, the bank has more to lend. If they invest it in domestic production facilities, that keeps more consumption spending at home and creates more jobs for Americans.

So, let's look at where we are.
We have tried to solve every economic problem for the last 50 years by stimulating demand.
We consume a higher percentage of our national income, and save/invest less, than almost any other country.
We are the world's largest importing nation, by an incredible margin. Of the 160 or so world countries, about 60 are net exporters and about 100 are net importers, and our net imports exceed those of the other 100 net importers combined.
We are the world's largest debtor nation. The federal government's portion of that debt is approaching levels that are historically unsustainable.
Our last two economic recoveries have been "jobless."
The current recession was precipitated because banks ran out of money to lend.

In short, the supply-demand balance is out of kilter. Wall Street and the government are both trying to paper over and pretend that everything is hunky-dory. But it's not.

Stimulating demand may produce short term feel good. Or it may not, as we may be so far out on the demand curve that it's like giving dope to an addict.

The fix is not going to be pretty.

So what happens when the dollar loses it's status as the world's reserve currency? For 200 years the British sterling had that status. It was a real ugly transition. The Germans want to buy the NYSE. Obama and the Fed Reserve have not brought us back from the brink, they are accelerating us over the cliff. The fix is going to be pretty horrendous.
02-16-2011 10:27 AM
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Mr. Peanut Offline
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Post: #77
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
If you give tax breaks to the poor annd middle class they will buy your products. If you give tax breaks to the rich they will build a plant in Mexico.
02-16-2011 10:33 AM
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Post: #78
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-16-2011 10:33 AM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  If you give tax breaks to the poor annd middle class they will buy your products. If you give tax breaks to the rich they will build a plant in Mexico.

Really? People use income tax returns or income tax decreases to build corporate plants in Mexico?

I'm thinking you don't know a damn thing about the topic you entered. As for the poor, they don't need tax cuts. They don't pay anything in the first damn place.
02-16-2011 10:39 AM
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BlazerFan11 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-16-2011 10:33 AM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  If you give tax breaks to the poor annd middle class they will buy your products.

Your products? Only the gov't gives tax breaks, and it doesn't sell products. The only products the poor will (or should) buy will be necessities, so you're basically subsidizing Wal-mart.

Mr. Peanut Wrote:If you give tax breaks to the rich they will build a plant in Mexico.

No, you are thinking about GM and bailouts.
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2011 10:40 AM by BlazerFan11.)
02-16-2011 10:40 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #80
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
Wasn't GM's a loan?
02-16-2011 10:48 AM
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