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US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #41
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
SMN and Blazer,

I get it. I really do. I understand, but let's start by being honest with each other. You can't balance a budget by increasing spending and cutting taxes. We are in a hit storm here folks. Republicans make increasing taxes a non starter. D's are going to hold onto entitlements like a raccoon gaurding a dumpster at 3 A.M. (If you've ever walked upon a raccoon enjoying a meal at night, you know what I am talking about) We need to formulate a roadmap back to sanity. We need both increased taxes and cuts.
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2011 03:04 PM by Machiavelli.)
02-15-2011 03:02 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #42
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
and tax increases across the board. Everyone needs skin in the game. No class warfare just honesty.
02-15-2011 03:04 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #43
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
Elect me President. We'd have a roadmap in 6 months and the RV would be on the road.
02-15-2011 03:05 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
Mach, there was a time when we managed just fine with lower taxes. What happened?

And I don't think too many conservatives on this board are for increased spending.

Look at idiotic California...we have a $28 billion dollar budget hole and the liberals here concede that illegals cost us between $10 and 15 billion a year. Do they address the illegals when trying to fix the budget deficit? No. They try to scare us by saying we'll lose firemen and policemen and they'll have to put criminals back out onto the streets (i.e. our safety will be compromised) No one cares about taxes or spending, they care about their own agenda.
02-15-2011 03:27 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 03:27 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Mach, there was a time when we managed just fine with lower taxes. What happened?

And I don't think too many conservatives on this board are for increased spending.

Look at idiotic California...we have a $28 billion dollar budget hole and the liberals here concede that illegals cost us between $10 and 15 billion a year. Do they address the illegals when trying to fix the budget deficit? No. They try to scare us by saying we'll lose firemen and policemen and they'll have to put criminals back out onto the streets (i.e. our safety will be compromised) No one cares about taxes or spending, they care about their own agenda.

We weren't spending as much.
02-15-2011 03:33 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 03:33 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 03:27 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Mach, there was a time when we managed just fine with lower taxes. What happened?

And I don't think too many conservatives on this board are for increased spending.

Look at idiotic California...we have a $28 billion dollar budget hole and the liberals here concede that illegals cost us between $10 and 15 billion a year. Do they address the illegals when trying to fix the budget deficit? No. They try to scare us by saying we'll lose firemen and policemen and they'll have to put criminals back out onto the streets (i.e. our safety will be compromised) No one cares about taxes or spending, they care about their own agenda.

We weren't spending as much.

Winner!!!! You now advance to round 2.
02-15-2011 03:35 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 03:35 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 03:33 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 03:27 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Mach, there was a time when we managed just fine with lower taxes. What happened?

And I don't think too many conservatives on this board are for increased spending.

Look at idiotic California...we have a $28 billion dollar budget hole and the liberals here concede that illegals cost us between $10 and 15 billion a year. Do they address the illegals when trying to fix the budget deficit? No. They try to scare us by saying we'll lose firemen and policemen and they'll have to put criminals back out onto the streets (i.e. our safety will be compromised) No one cares about taxes or spending, they care about their own agenda.

We weren't spending as much.

Winner!!!! You now advance to round 2.

Oh goody! When do I win a car?
02-15-2011 03:37 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #48
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 02:29 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 01:10 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  But you pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why unemployment benefits being extended and things like the earned income tax credit and food stamps are so effective at stimulating the economy because they go directly to folks that have to spend them right now.

UNREAL.

That's a VERY tortured perspective of reality. Paying somebody 1/3 the wage they would get making a car ... performing a service ... or doing damn near anything of value ... so they can sit at home and do nothing. As for the rest of the 2/3 of the value that's lost in that mix? Well apparently that doesn't matter. Certainly if they had a job they wouldn't be spending a dime more than they would on welfare, right?

Whoaaa, hold on. I wasn't endorsing these things as a means to permanent existence on them...LOL

I'm just saying that studies show that for every dollar spent by the government on these things returns far more to the economy than tax cuts for the top tax brackets do.

It's on Page 18 of the CBO report: Policies for Increasing Economic Growth and
Employment in 2010 and 2011
02-15-2011 03:55 PM
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chess Offline
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Post: #49
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 02:48 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Just something to think about:

Federally, I'm in the 28% tax bracket ($82,400 to 171,850) although I'll probably pay a little less. California taxes me at 9.3% for each dollar I earn and then re-taxes me at 8.75% when I try to spend what's left. My property tax rate is 1.2% on a 650k home but that doesn't include nearly 2 dozen special assessments with schools being the biggest ones. There are hidden taxes built in to smokes (87 cents per pack) and booze ($3.30 per gallon for the hard stuff and .20 per beer) and when I buy them I pay sales tax on the hidden taxes. My taxes supposedly pay for roads but if I want to use a few of them I have to pay tolls and if I want to park I have to feed the meter - these are double taxes. My utilities bills have a variety of taxes and special assessments. My vehicle registration tax is 1.15% and I have two cars. A fee has been added to my home owners insurance to help pay for fire protection for areas hundreds of miles from me. The combined state/federal tax on gas is 66.1 cents per gallon. There is a special fee charged to all new tires sold. There's an E-waste fee. The list is endless.

When you look at this, the government in all its incarnations, ends up with more of my money than I do. How can anyone justify raising taxes? If the government can take this much from me and a lot more from people who make a lot more than me then they just don't know what they're doing. To think that some of my money is in one of Murbarak's bank accounts just pisses me off.

California really is a special kind of Hell.
02-15-2011 04:01 PM
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BlazerFan11 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 03:05 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Elect me President.

Show us your birth certificate first.
02-15-2011 04:04 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #51
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 02:48 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Just something to think about:

Federally, I'm in the 28% tax bracket ($82,400 to 171,850) although I'll probably pay a little less. California taxes me at 9.3% for each dollar I earn and then re-taxes me at 8.75% when I try to spend what's left. My property tax rate is 1.2% on a 650k home but that doesn't include nearly 2 dozen special assessments with schools being the biggest ones. There are hidden taxes built in to smokes (87 cents per pack) and booze ($3.30 per gallon for the hard stuff and .20 per beer) and when I buy them I pay sales tax on the hidden taxes. My taxes supposedly pay for roads but if I want to use a few of them I have to pay tolls and if I want to park I have to feed the meter - these are double taxes. My utilities bills have a variety of taxes and special assessments. My vehicle registration tax is 1.15% and I have two cars. A fee has been added to my home owners insurance to help pay for fire protection for areas hundreds of miles from me. The combined state/federal tax on gas is 66.1 cents per gallon. There is a special fee charged to all new tires sold. There's an E-waste fee. The list is endless.

When you look at this, the government in all its incarnations, ends up with more of my money than I do. How can anyone justify raising taxes? If the government can take this much from me and a lot more from people who make a lot more than me then they just don't know what they're doing. To think that some of my money is in one of Murbarak's bank accounts just pisses me off.

Perhaps you would like to read a research paper I calculated the total amount of taxes on each household -- adding ALL taxes up -- as a percentage of household income?

I came out, btw, to over 50%.
02-15-2011 04:08 PM
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Post: #52
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
Elect Mach president and the Constitution would be scrapped, the prisons would be filled with his dissenters, and economic growth would be non-existent on the scale of the U.S.S.R. circa 1970.
02-15-2011 04:08 PM
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Post: #53
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 04:08 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 02:48 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Just something to think about:

Federally, I'm in the 28% tax bracket ($82,400 to 171,850) although I'll probably pay a little less. California taxes me at 9.3% for each dollar I earn and then re-taxes me at 8.75% when I try to spend what's left. My property tax rate is 1.2% on a 650k home but that doesn't include nearly 2 dozen special assessments with schools being the biggest ones. There are hidden taxes built in to smokes (87 cents per pack) and booze ($3.30 per gallon for the hard stuff and .20 per beer) and when I buy them I pay sales tax on the hidden taxes. My taxes supposedly pay for roads but if I want to use a few of them I have to pay tolls and if I want to park I have to feed the meter - these are double taxes. My utilities bills have a variety of taxes and special assessments. My vehicle registration tax is 1.15% and I have two cars. A fee has been added to my home owners insurance to help pay for fire protection for areas hundreds of miles from me. The combined state/federal tax on gas is 66.1 cents per gallon. There is a special fee charged to all new tires sold. There's an E-waste fee. The list is endless.

When you look at this, the government in all its incarnations, ends up with more of my money than I do. How can anyone justify raising taxes? If the government can take this much from me and a lot more from people who make a lot more than me then they just don't know what they're doing. To think that some of my money is in one of Murbarak's bank accounts just pisses me off.

Perhaps you would like to read a research paper I calculated the total amount of taxes on each household -- adding ALL taxes up -- as a percentage of household income?

I came out, btw, to over 50%.

Sure, post it. And then forward it to Obama.
02-15-2011 04:11 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #54
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 03:55 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 02:29 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 01:10 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  But you pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why unemployment benefits being extended and things like the earned income tax credit and food stamps are so effective at stimulating the economy because they go directly to folks that have to spend them right now.

UNREAL.

That's a VERY tortured perspective of reality. Paying somebody 1/3 the wage they would get making a car ... performing a service ... or doing damn near anything of value ... so they can sit at home and do nothing. As for the rest of the 2/3 of the value that's lost in that mix? Well apparently that doesn't matter. Certainly if they had a job they wouldn't be spending a dime more than they would on welfare, right?

Whoaaa, hold on. I wasn't endorsing these things as a means to permanent existence on them...LOL

I'm just saying that studies show that for every dollar spent by the government on these things returns far more to the economy than tax cuts for the top tax brackets do.

It's on Page 18 of the CBO report: Policies for Increasing Economic Growth and
Employment in 2010 and 2011

So the quickest way to recovery and prosperity is for all of us to go on unemployment.
02-15-2011 04:16 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 03:55 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I'm just saying that studies show that for every dollar spent by the government on these things returns far more to the economy than tax cuts for the top tax brackets do.

If you focus only on stimulating demand, maybe so.

But the structural problem is that we have done nothing but stimulate demand, in response to every problem, for the past 50 years.

We're the biggest importer nation in the world and the biggest debtor nation in the world because our demand has grossly outpaced our supply to meet that demand. We consume too much, we borrow too much, and we save too litttle. What really started this downturn was that banks stopped lending, and what has kept it down is that banks still aren't lending. When you are consuming too much, and saving too little, banks run out of money to lend. We're not going to start solving the structural problems until we change those things. And we're not going to have meaningful and sustained recovery until we address the structural problems. After 50 years, we are finally too far gone.

What these policies do is make the short run hurt less, at the price of ultimately making the long run hurt more. But when your politicians cannot think past November 2012, that's what you are going to get. In the end, we're going to get burned badly, and whoever's watch that occurs on is going to be reviled. But he or she will really be doing nothing worse than LBJ and Nixon and Ford and Carter and Reagan and Bush and Clinton and Shrub and Obama have done. I'd excuse Reagan and Clinton (and possibly Bush) from that list because some steps in the other direction got taken on ther watch. But Shrub has pretty much undone all that, and Obama has blown what was left of it away.

The outyear projections included with Obama's 2012 budget (like the 2011 budget) show near trillion dollar deficits in years projected to have 4% or higher growth. That, very simply, is running deficits for the hell of it. That's not just a violation of what Milton Friedman would say. It's also a violation of what Keynes would say.

Keynes said run deficits in bad times to stimulate demand, then make it up in good times by running surpluses and stimulating supply. That is perhaps a bit of an oversimplification, but not misleadingly so. We have not followed the second half of that for anything but the Clinton-Gingrich era out of the last 50 years. That's what's biting us in the butt, and we are not addressing it.
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2011 04:38 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-15-2011 04:18 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #56
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 04:08 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Elect Mach president and the Constitution would be scrapped, the prisons would be filled with his dissenters, and economic growth would be non-existent on the scale of the U.S.S.R. circa 1970.

Inside every good libtard just itching to get out is a fascist dictator.

There's a reason every time he's begged to be made a mod, everyone here has been opposed. Not that the board has ever considered him.

President? I think not.
02-15-2011 04:28 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #57
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 04:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 03:55 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I'm just saying that studies show that for every dollar spent by the government on these things returns far more to the economy than tax cuts for the top tax brackets do.

If you focus only on stimulating demand, maybe so.

But the structural problem is that we have done nothing but stimulate demand, in response to every problem, for the past 50 years.

We're the biggest importer nation in the world and the biggest debtor nation in the world because our demand has grossly outpaced our supply to meet that demand. We consume too much, we borrow too much, and we save too litttle. What really started this downturn was that banks stopped lending, and what has kept it down is that banks still aren't lending. When you are consuming too much, and saving too little, banks run out of money to lend. We're not going to start solving the structural problems until we change those things. And we're not going to have meaningful and sustained recovery until we address the structural problems. After 50 years, we are finally too far gone.

What these policies do is make the short run hurt less, at the price of ultimately making the long run hurt more. But when your politicians cannot think past November 2012, that's what you are going to get. In the end, we're going to get burned badly, and whoever's watch that occurs on is going to be reviled. But he or she will really be doing nothing worse than LBJ and Nixon and Ford and Carter and Reagan and Bush and Clinton and Shrub and Obama have done. I'd excuse Reagan and Clinton (and possibly Bush) from that list because some steps in the other direction got taken on ther watch. But Shrub has pretty much undone all that, and Obama has blown what was left of it away.

The outyear projections included with Obama's 2012 budget (like the 2011 budget) show near trillion dollar deficits in years projected to have 4% or higher growth. That, very simply, is running deficits for the hell of it. That's not just a violation of what Milton Friedman would say. It's also a violation of what Keynes would say.

Keynes said run deficits in bad times to stimulate demand, then make it up in good times by running surpluses and stimulating supply. That is perhaps a bit of an oversimplification, but not misleadingly so. We have not followed the second half of that for anything but the Clinton-Gingrich era out of the last 50 years. That's what's biting us in the butt, and we are not addressing it.

I can't argue with that!

And I am all for reducing government spending, but if the private sector does not replace it right quick, look out!
02-15-2011 04:45 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #58
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 04:16 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 03:55 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 02:29 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 01:10 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  But you pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why unemployment benefits being extended and things like the earned income tax credit and food stamps are so effective at stimulating the economy because they go directly to folks that have to spend them right now.

UNREAL.

That's a VERY tortured perspective of reality. Paying somebody 1/3 the wage they would get making a car ... performing a service ... or doing damn near anything of value ... so they can sit at home and do nothing. As for the rest of the 2/3 of the value that's lost in that mix? Well apparently that doesn't matter. Certainly if they had a job they wouldn't be spending a dime more than they would on welfare, right?

Whoaaa, hold on. I wasn't endorsing these things as a means to permanent existence on them...LOL

I'm just saying that studies show that for every dollar spent by the government on these things returns far more to the economy than tax cuts for the top tax brackets do.

It's on Page 18 of the CBO report: Policies for Increasing Economic Growth and
Employment in 2010 and 2011

So the quickest way to recovery and prosperity is for all of us to go on unemployment.

Yep! That's exactly what I meant!03-drunk
02-15-2011 04:48 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #59
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 04:48 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 04:16 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 03:55 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 02:29 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 01:10 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  But you pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why unemployment benefits being extended and things like the earned income tax credit and food stamps are so effective at stimulating the economy because they go directly to folks that have to spend them right now.

UNREAL.

That's a VERY tortured perspective of reality. Paying somebody 1/3 the wage they would get making a car ... performing a service ... or doing damn near anything of value ... so they can sit at home and do nothing. As for the rest of the 2/3 of the value that's lost in that mix? Well apparently that doesn't matter. Certainly if they had a job they wouldn't be spending a dime more than they would on welfare, right?

Whoaaa, hold on. I wasn't endorsing these things as a means to permanent existence on them...LOL

I'm just saying that studies show that for every dollar spent by the government on these things returns far more to the economy than tax cuts for the top tax brackets do.

It's on Page 18 of the CBO report: Policies for Increasing Economic Growth and
Employment in 2010 and 2011

So the quickest way to recovery and prosperity is for all of us to go on unemployment.

Yep! That's exactly what I meant!03-drunk

I'm not the one on the sauce babbling about how people feeding at the government teat stimulates the economy.
02-15-2011 05:20 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #60
RE: US Debt skyrockets past total GDP
(02-15-2011 04:01 PM)chess Wrote:  
(02-15-2011 02:48 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Just something to think about:

Federally, I'm in the 28% tax bracket ($82,400 to 171,850) although I'll probably pay a little less. California taxes me at 9.3% for each dollar I earn and then re-taxes me at 8.75% when I try to spend what's left. My property tax rate is 1.2% on a 650k home but that doesn't include nearly 2 dozen special assessments with schools being the biggest ones. There are hidden taxes built in to smokes (87 cents per pack) and booze ($3.30 per gallon for the hard stuff and .20 per beer) and when I buy them I pay sales tax on the hidden taxes. My taxes supposedly pay for roads but if I want to use a few of them I have to pay tolls and if I want to park I have to feed the meter - these are double taxes. My utilities bills have a variety of taxes and special assessments. My vehicle registration tax is 1.15% and I have two cars. A fee has been added to my home owners insurance to help pay for fire protection for areas hundreds of miles from me. The combined state/federal tax on gas is 66.1 cents per gallon. There is a special fee charged to all new tires sold. There's an E-waste fee. The list is endless.

When you look at this, the government in all its incarnations, ends up with more of my money than I do. How can anyone justify raising taxes? If the government can take this much from me and a lot more from people who make a lot more than me then they just don't know what they're doing. To think that some of my money is in one of Murbarak's bank accounts just pisses me off.

California really is a special kind of Hell.

Yeah, it is. And just when you think it can't get crazier California has a tire inflation law that, if not followed by repair shops, said repair shops can be fined and jail sentences issued. Think I'm batshit crazy? Click here to see that I'm not.
02-15-2011 05:35 PM
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