Quote:And I watch countless news stories about people who are criminals (illegal aliens, felons) liars, cheats, or just stupid getting help with their mortgage loans because they “need it”. And people getting free medical services because they “need it”. And people declaring bankruptcy because it’s just too hard to pay the bills, they “need to”. All the while I see my government crushing people like me–expecting us to just keep doing, just keep paying, just keep being responsible in order to make up for all of those people who were not.

Quote:we now have four Americas:

1-The public employee union class

2-The entitled/welfare class

3-The elite ruling class

4-The rest of us who are paying dearly to support #s 1, 2 and 3

This same feeling has slowly, but inexerably, been rising from the pit of my stomach for a few years now.....

EDIT http://lonelyconservative.com/2011/01/th...dle-class/

(01-30-2011 10:01 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

Quote:And I watch countless news stories about people who are criminals (illegal aliens, felons) liars, cheats, or just stupid getting help with their mortgage loans because they “need it”. And people getting free medical services because they “need it”. And people declaring bankruptcy because it’s just too hard to pay the bills, they “need to”. All the while I see my government crushing people like me–expecting us to just keep doing, just keep paying, just keep being responsible in order to make up for all of those people who were not.

Quote:we now have four Americas:
1-The public employee union class
2-The entitled/welfare class
3-The elite ruling class
4-The rest of us who are paying dearly to support #s 1, 2 and 3

This same feeling has slowly, but inexorably, been rising from the pit of my stomach for a few years now.....

Agree. Source?

Looks like class warfare. Bad moon rising. The rise of fascism.

(01-30-2011 10:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-30-2011 10:01 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

Quote:And I watch countless news stories about people who are criminals (illegal aliens, felons) liars, cheats, or just stupid getting help with their mortgage loans because they “need it”. And people getting free medical services because they “need it”. And people declaring bankruptcy because it’s just too hard to pay the bills, they “need to”. All the while I see my government crushing people like me–expecting us to just keep doing, just keep paying, just keep being responsible in order to make up for all of those people who were not.

Quote:we now have four Americas:
1-The public employee union class
2-The entitled/welfare class
3-The elite ruling class
4-The rest of us who are paying dearly to support #s 1, 2 and 3

This same feeling has slowly, but inexorably, been rising from the pit of my stomach for a few years now.....

Agree. Source?

Link here
http://lonelyconservative.com/2011/01/th...dle-class/

Vox Day had a thread on this. While I agree w/ the sentiment, I don't think things are widely as bad as this article suggests. For now. What we're doing is setting things up for a bad fall later. Unless the gov't reigns in spending, and the banks start using their profits to balance their spreadsheets instead of providing bonuses.

However, the person/situation specifically described here has a couple of choices, and I'd tell her to look into a strategic default ASAP. But, there are variations on that:

1. Just stop paying and keep the cash (as cash!). Sure your credit will be dinged, but cash is king, and you'll be surprised how open people are to large down payments. Currently, people have stretched this out for 2 years, maybe longer. Two years of mortgage as downpayment can get you pretty far.
Two years is pretty good, but could change suddenly depending on new regulations.

2. Pay some nominal amount to keep the loan out of foreclosure for longer. Going 3-4 years saving most of your mortgage payment will mean even more savings on another home!

3. If she wants to move to re-start, try renting out the place and move. Use the rent to pay the note, and if it eventually goes into foreclosure, so be it. However, if things go well, you might even be doing the "right thing" and make all the payments.

I have no statistics to back this up, but I have a hunch that the middle class often hurts itself. Anecdotal evidence (keep in mind i live in NY where everyone is keeping up with the joneses) would tend to show that the middle class often spends like part of the upper class. I often see new iPhones in the hands of people who are obviously firmly entrenched in the middle class. I know of people who buy iPads for their <10 yr old children. Items that used to be only for the upper class, are now commonplace in the homes of the middle class. Top of the line TVs, MacBook Pro's, luxury cars, Starbucks everyday, going out to lunch everyday.

I'm not trying to say that the government's lack of fiscal responsibility over the last decade isn't squeezing the middle class. I'm just saying that the middle class does very little to help itself.

(01-31-2011 11:27 AM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  I have no statistics to back this up, but I have a hunch that the middle class often hurts itself.

Of course you're right, otherwise Dave Ramsey wouldn't be so popular.

Quote:I'm not trying to say that the government's lack of fiscal responsibility over the last decade isn't squeezing the middle class. I'm just saying that the middle class does very little to help itself.

It's a vicious spiral. One side's lack of responsibility contributes to the other's.

(01-31-2011 12:05 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 11:27 AM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  I have no statistics to back this up, but I have a hunch that the middle class often hurts itself.

Of course you're right, otherwise Dave Ramsey wouldn't be so popular.

Quote:I'm not trying to say that the government's lack of fiscal responsibility over the last decade isn't squeezing the middle class. I'm just saying that the middle class does very little to help itself.

It's a vicious spiral. One side's lack of responsibility contributes to the other's.

My spouse handles our monthly expenditures....she has a budget book and knows where the money is going. The government has NO clue where the money goes.

(01-31-2011 12:31 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:05 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 11:27 AM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  I have no statistics to back this up, but I have a hunch that the middle class often hurts itself.

Of course you're right, otherwise Dave Ramsey wouldn't be so popular.

Quote:I'm not trying to say that the government's lack of fiscal responsibility over the last decade isn't squeezing the middle class. I'm just saying that the middle class does very little to help itself.

It's a vicious spiral. One side's lack of responsibility contributes to the other's.

My spouse handles our monthly expenditures....she has a budget book and knows where the money is going. The government has NO clue where the money goes.

i'd say your wife's (husband's?) budget book isn't used by most middle class families

(01-31-2011 12:51 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:31 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:05 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 11:27 AM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  I have no statistics to back this up, but I have a hunch that the middle class often hurts itself.

Of course you're right, otherwise Dave Ramsey wouldn't be so popular.

Quote:I'm not trying to say that the government's lack of fiscal responsibility over the last decade isn't squeezing the middle class. I'm just saying that the middle class does very little to help itself.

It's a vicious spiral. One side's lack of responsibility contributes to the other's.

My spouse handles our monthly expenditures....she has a budget book and knows where the money is going. The government has NO clue where the money goes.

i'd say your wife's (husband's?) budget book isn't used by most middle class families

You are correct. I see my friends living in a manner that I simply can not understand on similar incomes. Evidently most people never save and live from paycheck to paycheck with maxed out credit cards. I really don't think I could stand that kind of pressure. I give my father credit for teaching me to "pay myself first" and have some discipline when it comes to spending.

Imagine what just saving 10 cents of every dollar you earned in your life would do for you.

(01-31-2011 01:02 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:51 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:31 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:05 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 11:27 AM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  I have no statistics to back this up, but I have a hunch that the middle class often hurts itself.

Of course you're right, otherwise Dave Ramsey wouldn't be so popular.

Quote:I'm not trying to say that the government's lack of fiscal responsibility over the last decade isn't squeezing the middle class. I'm just saying that the middle class does very little to help itself.

It's a vicious spiral. One side's lack of responsibility contributes to the other's.

My spouse handles our monthly expenditures....she has a budget book and knows where the money is going. The government has NO clue where the money goes.

i'd say your wife's (husband's?) budget book isn't used by most middle class families

You are correct. I see my friends living in a manner that I simply can not understand on similar incomes. Evidently most people never save and live from paycheck to paycheck with maxed out credit cards. I really don't think I could stand that kind of pressure. I give my father credit for teaching me to "pay myself first" and have some discipline when it comes to spending.

Imagine what just saving 10 cents of every dollar you earned in your life would do for you.

sounds like we have similar fathers. My parents taught me how to successfully manage my money, which has led to this 23 yr old having a healthy bank account as well as a Roth IRA. I'm building credit and pay my bills as soon as i get them

(01-31-2011 02:14 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 01:02 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:51 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:31 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:05 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Of course you're right, otherwise Dave Ramsey wouldn't be so popular.


It's a vicious spiral. One side's lack of responsibility contributes to the other's.

My spouse handles our monthly expenditures....she has a budget book and knows where the money is going. The government has NO clue where the money goes.

i'd say your wife's (husband's?) budget book isn't used by most middle class families

You are correct. I see my friends living in a manner that I simply can not understand on similar incomes. Evidently most people never save and live from paycheck to paycheck with maxed out credit cards. I really don't think I could stand that kind of pressure. I give my father credit for teaching me to "pay myself first" and have some discipline when it comes to spending.

Imagine what just saving 10 cents of every dollar you earned in your life would do for you.

sounds like we have similar fathers. My parents taught me how to successfully manage my money, which has led to this 23 yr old having a healthy bank account as well as a Roth IRA. I'm building credit and pay my bills as soon as i get them

Good work.
My daughter is graduating from college in May...I hope some of this stuff I have preached has rubbed off on her. It is all about using some common sense. Saving, living with a budget, and buying conservatively. I have never owned a new vehicle or boat that I cant paddle.

The real squeezing of the middle class is becuase value-added economic activity has been bailing out of the US since the 1960s. It's nothing new, Ross Perot wrote extensively about it in 1992.

We're not going to restore the middle class without reversing the outflow of jobs. And as my European socialist friends tell me often, "You can't be pro-jobs without being pro-business."

And recent moves to try to convey different appearances notwithstanding, Obama is NOT pro-business. Nor was Shrub. You wouldn't run up the deficits either one of them has run up if you were pro-business.

(01-31-2011 05:51 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The real squeezing of the middle class is becuase value-added economic activity has been bailing out of the US since the 1960s. It's nothing new, Ross Perot wrote extensively about it in 1992.

We're not going to restore the middle class without reversing the outflow of jobs. And as my European socialist friends tell me often, "You can't be pro-job without being pro-business."

And recent moves to try to convey different appearances notwithstanding, Obama is NOT pro-business. Nor was Shrub. You wouldn't run up the deficits either one of them has run up if you were pro-business.

Absolutely....You can not sustain an economy on "service" jobs. You have to actually "create" something tangible.

Funny....Ross Perot was deemed a fool and now has been proven correct in his policies. Ron Paul was deemed a fool and now has been proven correct in his polices. Looks like we need to find a guy with the initials RP to lead the country!

(01-31-2011 06:03 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Funny....Ross Perot was deemed a fool and now has been proven correct in his policies. Ron Paul was deemed a fool and now has been proven correct in his polices. Looks like we need to find a guy with the initials RP to lead the country!

Rand Paul works.

(01-31-2011 06:03 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 05:51 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The real squeezing of the middle class is becuase value-added economic activity has been bailing out of the US since the 1960s. It's nothing new, Ross Perot wrote extensively about it in 1992.

We're not going to restore the middle class without reversing the outflow of jobs. And as my European socialist friends tell me often, "You can't be pro-job without being pro-business."

And recent moves to try to convey different appearances notwithstanding, Obama is NOT pro-business. Nor was Shrub. You wouldn't run up the deficits either one of them has run up if you were pro-business.

Absolutely....You can not sustain an economy on "service" jobs. You have to actually "create" something tangible.

Funny....Ross Perot was deemed a fool and now has been proven correct in his policies. Ron Paul was deemed a fool and now has been proven correct in his polices. Looks like we need to find a guy with the initials RP to lead the country!

Makes you think that whoever the Lame Stream Media portraits as a fool is a good candidate. I don't know about RP, how about SP.

(01-31-2011 05:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 02:14 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 01:02 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:51 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:31 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  My spouse handles our monthly expenditures....she has a budget book and knows where the money is going. The government has NO clue where the money goes.

i'd say your wife's (husband's?) budget book isn't used by most middle class families

You are correct. I see my friends living in a manner that I simply can not understand on similar incomes. Evidently most people never save and live from paycheck to paycheck with maxed out credit cards. I really don't think I could stand that kind of pressure. I give my father credit for teaching me to "pay myself first" and have some discipline when it comes to spending.

Imagine what just saving 10 cents of every dollar you earned in your life would do for you.

sounds like we have similar fathers. My parents taught me how to successfully manage my money, which has led to this 23 yr old having a healthy bank account as well as a Roth IRA. I'm building credit and pay my bills as soon as i get them

Good work.
My daughter is graduating from college in May...I hope some of this stuff I have preached has rubbed off on her. It is all about using some common sense. Saving, living with a budget, and buying conservatively. I have never owned a new vehicle or boat that I cant paddle.

my dad just co-signed on my sister's first credit card (she's 19). It's a little later than I got my first card, but only because my sister isn't quite as careful with money as I am. People at work are always amazed that I cook every night and bring lunch nearly everyday. I probably buy lunch about twice a month. I'm trying to build up a nice stash of what my dad calls "F*ck you money" just in case I get laid off or am without a job for an extended period of time

(01-31-2011 06:10 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  People at work are always amazed that I cook every night and bring lunch nearly everyday. I probably buy lunch about twice a month.

Yeah, that's a pretty good indicator whether people are responsible w/ money. I knew guys in DC with healthy salaries, military pensions, and paid off houses who still brought their lunches. Not hard to figure they're not too worried about financial issues.

(01-31-2011 06:09 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 06:03 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 05:51 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The real squeezing of the middle class is becuase value-added economic activity has been bailing out of the US since the 1960s. It's nothing new, Ross Perot wrote extensively about it in 1992.

We're not going to restore the middle class without reversing the outflow of jobs. And as my European socialist friends tell me often, "You can't be pro-job without being pro-business."

And recent moves to try to convey different appearances notwithstanding, Obama is NOT pro-business. Nor was Shrub. You wouldn't run up the deficits either one of them has run up if you were pro-business.

Absolutely....You can not sustain an economy on "service" jobs. You have to actually "create" something tangible.

Funny....Ross Perot was deemed a fool and now has been proven correct in his policies. Ron Paul was deemed a fool and now has been proven correct in his polices. Looks like we need to find a guy with the initials RP to lead the country!

Makes you think that whoever the Lame Stream Media portraits as a fool is a good candidate. I don't know about RP, how about SP.

The LSM bashed the RPs for economic polices. I have not really heard her expounding on this to that extent. Correct me if I am wrong.

My problem with her was more based upon her personal philosophy that the world is only 6000 years old. If she has rejected that philosophy and now believes otherwise...then...correct me.

(01-31-2011 07:07 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  My problem with her was more based upon her personal philosophy that the world is only 6000 years old. If she has rejected that philosophy and now believes otherwise...then...correct me.

And if she does believe that, it would be a problem for you how?

(01-31-2011 06:10 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 05:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 02:14 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 01:02 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 12:51 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  i'd say your wife's (husband's?) budget book isn't used by most middle class families

You are correct. I see my friends living in a manner that I simply can not understand on similar incomes. Evidently most people never save and live from paycheck to paycheck with maxed out credit cards. I really don't think I could stand that kind of pressure. I give my father credit for teaching me to "pay myself first" and have some discipline when it comes to spending.

Imagine what just saving 10 cents of every dollar you earned in your life would do for you.

sounds like we have similar fathers. My parents taught me how to successfully manage my money, which has led to this 23 yr old having a healthy bank account as well as a Roth IRA. I'm building credit and pay my bills as soon as i get them

Good work.
My daughter is graduating from college in May...I hope some of this stuff I have preached has rubbed off on her. It is all about using some common sense. Saving, living with a budget, and buying conservatively. I have never owned a new vehicle or boat that I cant paddle.

my dad just co-signed on my sister's first credit card (she's 19). It's a little later than I got my first card, but only because my sister isn't quite as careful with money as I am. People at work are always amazed that I cook every night and bring lunch nearly everyday. I probably buy lunch about twice a month. I'm trying to build up a nice stash of what my dad calls "F*ck you money" just in case I get laid off or am without a job for an extended period of time

Your dad is wise. Everyone should work to acheive at least 6 months of saved income in case you lose a job. It allows you to be able to "not have to settle" and concentrate your job search and even take advantage of some job retraining.

Put that cash in a good conservative mutual fund ( I love index funds) and at the same time every month to take advantage of "dollar cost averaging".. and hopefully you will not have to touch it and you end up with a nice start on your nest egg.

FU money is also good to have for another reason...If you simply have just had enough..then you can safely tell your employer to F themselves.

I have been lucky. I have had the same employer since college...28 years ago. Good luck..You sound like you are on the right track to not having to work to age 70.