(01-28-2011 02:51 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We're simply not on the right track--anywhere.

The geopolitical implications of this situation of Egypt are many, as are the effects on all of us.

Of major importance is the Suez Canal. Want $10/gal. gasoline (like BO)?

As we watch this play out, remember that while Mubarek is the figurehead, the REAL power in Egypt is the military. They will not go quietly if Mubarek is toppled. The bloodshed might become very, very bad.

The mealy-mouthed Hillary Clinton statement today suggests that there is confusion within the State Department and the administration on how to respond. Hillary urges and cautions the security forces to allow "peaceful demonstrations" when it seems to me that it is already spriraling out of control. I believe that the smartest response for the U.S. at this point would be silence, especially given the blackout of the internet there.

I'd think right now that the majority of Egypt's population probably does NOT want to see the Muslim Brotherhood gain power. Probably the most worried group is the Christian Copts, about 10% of the population.

I remember sitting in a Middle East intelligence brief given to the Chief of Naval Operations (the navy representative on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, for those who don't know) on 15 December 1978. The briefing officer repeated emphatically that the Shah of Iran was in no difficulty, that the demonstrations taking place in Iran were peaceful and no threat to the government, and that we actually thought they were a good thing because they might encourage the Shah to liberalize his regime. On 16 January 1979, the Shah was deposed. That's how clueless we were about Iran. I'm guessing we're probably equally clueless about this one.

I saw this in comments on the situation but don't have the time or energy right now to check it out for accuracy. If true, things will likely go from bad to worse over there if the protests continue.

"Egypt depends on foreign aid, Suez Canal tolls, and tourism to survive, and they are about to lose all three."

The U.S. sends about $1.8 billion in aid to Egypt annually.

(01-28-2011 04:15 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I remember sitting in a Middle East intelligence brief given to the Chief of Naval Operations (the navy representative on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, for those who don't know) on 15 December 1978. The briefing officer repeated emphatically that the Shah of Iran was in no difficulty, that the demonstrations taking place in Iran were peaceful and no threat to the government, and that we actually thought they were a good thing because they might encourage the Shah to liberalize his regime. On 16 January 1979, the Shah was deposed. That's how clueless we were about Iran. I'm guessing we're probably equally clueless about this one.

i'm curious how far and fast this is going to continue to spread. Is yemen next?

China's army (the PLA) has 3 million members, the world's largest army. I wouldn't say they haven't put a soldier on the ground anywhere. It may be primarily based in their homeland but it's not like historically they've been content with an isolationist philosphy.

(01-28-2011 02:51 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We have our troops scattered all over the world, and the main thing they seem to be accomplishing is painting targets on themselves.

Meanwhile, China is becoming more influential than we are, without putting a soldier on the ground anywhere. They're doing it with economic influence.

(01-28-2011 04:32 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  "Egypt depends on foreign aid, Suez Canal tolls, and tourism to survive, and they are about to lose all three."

The U.S. sends about $1.8 billion in aid to Egypt annually.

According to Wikipedia....

The economy of Egypt is one of the most developed and diversified in the Middle East, with sectors such as tourism, agriculture, industry and service at almost equal production levels. The Egyptian economy has been developing rapidly during the 2000s, due in part to legislation aimed at luring investments, coupled with a record of both internal and political stability, along with trade and market liberalization.

I guess it's tough to take that passage seriously when they claim Egypt has political stability. They do have 80-plus million folks in that country - surely they must do something else economically than tourism, tolls and handouts?

We have a 7-2 freshman basketball player from Egypt who could end up being pretty good. I hope this strife won't affect his long-term status at Rice.

(01-28-2011 05:55 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  China's army (the PLA) has 3 million members, the world's largest army. I wouldn't say they haven't put a soldier on the ground anywhere. It may be primarily based in their homeland but it's not like historically they've been content with an isolationist philosphy.

(01-28-2011 02:51 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We have our troops scattered all over the world, and the main thing they seem to be accomplishing is painting targets on themselves.
Meanwhile, China is becoming more influential than we are, without putting a soldier on the ground anywhere. They're doing it with economic influence.

They haven't put soldiers outside their homeland in any appreciable numbers. They're taking over the world with economic power. Africa is effectively a collection of Chinese satellite states--and South America is starting down that road. And I'm pretty sure it hasn't been Chinese soldiers making it happen.

Ross Perot said it best (but I said it long before he did, so I'll claim he got it from me)--in the post-Cold-War world, economic power will be more important than military power. Let's see, we have the world's most powerful (and most expensive) military, we are the world's largest debtor nation, and we are the world's largest importer. Guess we didn't get the memo.

My primary concern is Israel. Since 1979 there has been "Peace" on their Western flank. Now if a Islamo-fundamentalist Government comes to power in Egypt, "all Hell Breaking Loose" becomes one of the options.

And by the way... who was once #2 in the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood? UBL's buddy Ayman al-Zawahiri.

(01-28-2011 06:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-28-2011 05:55 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  China's army (the PLA) has 3 million members, the world's largest army. I wouldn't say they haven't put a soldier on the ground anywhere. It may be primarily based in their homeland but it's not like historically they've been content with an isolationist philosphy.

(01-28-2011 02:51 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We have our troops scattered all over the world, and the main thing they seem to be accomplishing is painting targets on themselves.
Meanwhile, China is becoming more influential than we are, without putting a soldier on the ground anywhere. They're doing it with economic influence.

They haven't put soldiers outside their homeland in any appreciable numbers. They're taking over the world with economic power. Africa is effectively a collection of Chinese satellite states--and South America is starting down that road. And I'm pretty sure it hasn't been Chinese soldiers making it happen.

Ross Perot said it best (but I said it long before he did, so I'll claim he got it from me)--in the post-Cold-War world, economic power will be more important than military power. Let's see, we have the world's most powerful (and most expensive) military, we are the world's largest debtor nation, and we are the world's largest importer. Guess we didn't get the memo.

We have allowed America to become a Neocon state that is terrified of every damn thing.

We have wasted a large portion of our wealth in interventionism all over the world and knee jerk homeland defense. The result has become a disaster and is going leave America no longer the worlds economic leader.

We failed to heed Ike's comments in his farewell speech when he left office and we did not turn our capital back into peaceful means. Instead we continued to finance a massive industrial military complex for the sake of jobs and misguided foreign policies.

We are now facing a situation of catastrophic proportions due to our failed foreign policy mistakes. We mistakenly construed military might with economic power.

We have crossed our Rubicon. Get ready for the worst.

(01-28-2011 10:51 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-28-2011 06:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-28-2011 05:55 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  China's army (the PLA) has 3 million members, the world's largest army. I wouldn't say they haven't put a soldier on the ground anywhere. It may be primarily based in their homeland but it's not like historically they've been content with an isolationist philosphy.

(01-28-2011 02:51 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We have our troops scattered all over the world, and the main thing they seem to be accomplishing is painting targets on themselves.
Meanwhile, China is becoming more influential than we are, without putting a soldier on the ground anywhere. They're doing it with economic influence.

They haven't put soldiers outside their homeland in any appreciable numbers. They're taking over the world with economic power. Africa is effectively a collection of Chinese satellite states--and South America is starting down that road. And I'm pretty sure it hasn't been Chinese soldiers making it happen.
Ross Perot said it best (but I said it long before he did, so I'll claim he got it from me)--in the post-Cold-War world, economic power will be more important than military power. Let's see, we have the world's most powerful (and most expensive) military, we are the world's largest debtor nation, and we are the world's largest importer. Guess we didn't get the memo.

We have allowed America to become a Neocon state that is terrified of every damn thing.
We have wasted a large portion of our wealth in interventionism all over the world and knee jerk homeland defense. The result has become a disaster and is going leave America no longer the worlds economic leader.
We failed to heed Ike's comments in his farewell speech when he left office and we did not turn our capital back into peaceful means. Instead we continued to finance a massive industrial military complex for the sake of jobs and misguided foreign policies.
We are now facing a situation of catastrophic proportions due to our failed foreign policy mistakes. We mistakenly construed military might with economic power.
We have crossed our Rubicon. Get ready for the worst.

What astounds me is how few people really understand how bad it is.

And world leaders wonder why Israel is reluctant to give up any of the land it gained in wars with Egypt.

(01-28-2011 01:59 PM)animus Wrote:  

(01-28-2011 01:37 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(01-28-2011 01:25 PM)animus Wrote:  

(01-28-2011 01:07 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(01-28-2011 11:02 AM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  Yes.. that's my point, what we put in place didn't work. Our guy was overthrown and his being there and us supporting him is one of my reasons for the Anti-American views they have now.

What's everybody else's excuse?

I'm kinda tired of hearing the default answer that every thing the US does is legit cause for world hatred.

I'm not saying our history is pure as snow, but it's an academically weak, ill-thought out response.

The world hates us because we do stick our noses in places it doesn't belong. That is a fact.

At this point, it looks more like an opinion to me.

I believe we do get far too involved in the world's affairs. But, that's an inadequate excuse for why so many hate us.

Have you ever been overseas???

Have you? Or have you just been watching the liberal media.

I have been to countries on every continent but Antarctica, including Egypt. The only place in the world that I have ever felt unwelcome was France. I certainly wouldn't say we have the same aura that we had in the 80's & 90's, but America is still respected the world over.

(01-28-2011 04:15 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I remember sitting in a Middle East intelligence brief given to the Chief of Naval Operations (the navy representative on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, for those who don't know) on 15 December 1978. The briefing officer repeated emphatically that the Shah of Iran was in no difficulty, that the demonstrations taking place in Iran were peaceful and no threat to the government, and that we actually thought they were a good thing because they might encourage the Shah to liberalize his regime. On 16 January 1979, the Shah was deposed. That's how clueless we were about Iran. I'm guessing we're probably equally clueless about this one.

Maybe yes, maybe no, but the current US stance (spanning both Bush and Obama administrations) is "complicated"...

Egypt protests: America's secret backing for rebel leaders behind uprising - Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...ising.html Wrote:The American Embassy in Cairo helped a young dissident attend a US-sponsored summit for activists in New York, while working to keep his identity secret from Egyptian state police.

On his return to Cairo in December 2008, the activist told US diplomats that an alliance of opposition groups had drawn up a plan to overthrow President Hosni Mubarak and install a democratic government in 2011.

He has already been arrested by Egyptian security in connection with the demonstrations and his identity is being protected by The Daily Telegraph.

(01-29-2011 07:58 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  And world leaders wonder why Israel is reluctant to give up any of the land it gained in wars with Egypt.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that they gave up every square foot of it. At least every square foot that Egypt wanted to have anything to do with (Gaza was under Egypt's control for all of 19 years).

(01-28-2011 02:02 PM)cb4029 Wrote:  The only thing we are good at is fu*king sh*t up.

The mind of a liberal.

(01-28-2011 01:37 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  At this point, it looks more like an opinion to me.

I believe we do get far too involved in the world's affairs. But, that's an inadequate excuse for why so many hate us.

You're almost there ... allow me to bridge the final gap:

So many hate us because we are involved in all the world's affairs, AND there are brainwashed people looking for any means to lash out at their horrid living conditions. We are are convenient causality. Sometimes we even really ARE the causality.

(01-31-2011 09:13 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(01-28-2011 01:37 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  At this point, it looks more like an opinion to me.

I believe we do get far too involved in the world's affairs. But, that's an inadequate excuse for why so many hate us.

You're almost there ... allow me to bridge the final gap:

So many hate us because we are involved in all the world's affairs, AND there are brainwashed people looking for any means to lash out at their horrid living conditions. We are are convenient causality. Sometimes we even really ARE the causality.

I can see that Socialist-Libertarian alliance is working out well for you...

(01-31-2011 09:33 AM)I45owl Wrote:  I can see that Socialist-Libertarian alliance is working out well for you...

Yea because I've really been a big time endorser of redistribution of wealth.

(01-31-2011 11:36 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 09:33 AM)I45owl Wrote:  I can see that Socialist-Libertarian alliance is working out well for you...

Yea because I've really been a big time endorser of redistribution of wealth.

As I recall, you were the one that brought up this alliance here, and in the same context...

(01-31-2011 02:16 PM)I45owl Wrote:  As I recall, you were the one that brought up this alliance here, and in the same context...

You recall erroneously. I said progressive-libertarian alliance. I didn't say they agreed on taxation either. I said they were allies on:
- Ending corporate welfare
- Scaling back the military budget
- Restoring civil liberties
- Having more transparent and accountable government (Audit the Fed, among others)

(01-31-2011 02:38 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(01-31-2011 02:16 PM)I45owl Wrote:  As I recall, you were the one that brought up this alliance here, and in the same context...

You recall erroneously. I said progressive-libertarian alliance. I didn't say they agreed on taxation either. I said they were allies on:
- Ending corporate welfare
- Scaling back the military budget
- Restoring civil liberties
- Having more transparent and accountable government (Audit the Fed, among others)

mea culpa. I thought it was on foreign affairs and Blaming America First.