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Another bad break for the WAC
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #21
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-07-2010 09:02 PM)YouCanUseaMint Wrote:  
(09-07-2010 08:23 PM)Hilltopper2K Wrote:  
(09-07-2010 08:10 PM)YouCanUseaMint Wrote:  UNT won't, but we sure would. The Sunbelt isn't looking to expand at this time and if we're wanting to transition, this might be our only chance.

Just out of curiosity, would you prefer the Sunbelt or Wac lite?
Overall, if we can get UTSA in on this action and be assured Hawaii and LaTech are staying, I would prefer the WAC. This way, our transition to FBS would be a little easier and we could run the table baseball wise.

A good question to ask is how would our fan base respond to the Belt. Some over at bobcatfans think there would only be short lasting excitement for FBS, until our base realizes the Belt is only the Southland on steroids. The WAC at least offers name recognition and something new to try (by no means am I trying to knock the Sun Belt).

EDIT: With that said, there are a handful of Belt schools I would love to see us play even if we do jump to the WAC (ULala, Ark St, Troy, MTSU)..

You have a math issue.

WAC has 6. They need 8 to FBS.
If any one of the six leaves, absent special dispensation from the NCAA you have a conference that does not have an automatic bid in any sport (recruit baseball, volleyball, basketball, etc with little chance of post-season). You no longer have the required number to FBS at six and the BCS will have to vote on how to treat the WAC. Precedent says, they treat the WAC like they did the Sun Belt, no equity membership instead receiving only a flat token sum from the BCS while transitioning back. I suspect the Sun Belt reps to the BCS will make a point of reminding people forcefully how the league was treated and ask if the group plans to be arbitary and capricious in how it applies its standards, probably followed by a demand for back pay if the WAC isn't treated identically.

Texas State has already chosen to stand-down once before when unable to move FBS in a prudent manner. The reports that they have crunched the numbers and found the WAC to not be feasible are highly plausible. WAC membership come 2012 (if not 2011) will produce the same or less revenue as Sun Belt membership with significantly higher expenses.

If Texas State has the sort of money needed to survive that, they are on the verge of Sun Belt membership because they can demonstrate to the league they have the resources to compete.

As to the fans calling the Sun Belt the Southland on steroids, got no problem with that. Louisiana Monroe was I-AA champion as a member of the SLC, Arkansas State was a runner-up and still holds on the best winning percentages for the playoffs by any program. North Texas in 12 years represented the SLC four times in post-season. Troy won the SLC 3 times in six years and represented the league 4 times in the playoffs. Sun Belt members won outright or shared 17 SLC titles of 46. Throw in Tech and that's 25 titles held by schools that moved to FBS. Non-football UTA won three, and bringing back football Lamar won two more. With the exception of McNeese State, all the established proven muscle in the conference has moved on.

The SLC hasn't sent a team to the title game since 1997, 12 years ago. It went from having three appearances in a four year period (followed by the great migration) to three appearances in 22 years.
09-08-2010 08:59 AM
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Burn the Horse Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-07-2010 09:02 PM)YouCanUseaMint Wrote:  
(09-07-2010 08:23 PM)Hilltopper2K Wrote:  Just out of curiosity, would you prefer the Sunbelt or Wac lite?
A good question to ask is how would our fan base respond to the Belt. Some over at bobcatfans think there would only be short lasting excitement for FBS, until our base realizes the Belt is only the Southland on steroids. The WAC at least offers name recognition and something new to try (by no means am I trying to knock the Sun Belt).


I know you didn't mean any disrespect by this quote, but it was a bit insulting. The Southland on steroids? The footprints may be similar, but I'd be very careful when comparing BCS Conferences to FCS. Troy, Middle, FAU, and stAte would run roughshod through most Division 1-AA conferences. Troy and Middle especially. If Texas State were to jump up to FBS and come in to the Belt (like I support) it would be years before your athletic program could compete annually with the top of our Conference.
09-08-2010 09:20 AM
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FIUFan Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
Just thinking aloud but since we stand a 10 members once USA gets up to speed, how 'bout adding Texas St and La Tech in a package deal which gets us to 12 schools and two divisions.

Here's your new East:
WKU
MTSU
Troy
FIU
FAU
USA

and West:
UNT
Texas St.
UL-L
La Tech
UL-M
ASU

And the geography forms a nice Sun Belt Arch from S. Texas to S. Fla. To me that looks solid for the long haul.

p.s. to the La Tech crowd, this could be your chance to be the lead dog (i.e. our Boise St., though I'm sure a handful of programs would beg to differ). 05-stirthepot
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2010 10:03 AM by FIUFan.)
09-08-2010 10:00 AM
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Fanof49ASU Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 10:00 AM)FIUFan Wrote:  p.s. to the La Tech crowd, this could be your chance to be the lead dog (i.e. our Boise St., though I'm sure a handful of programs would beg to differ). 05-stirthepot

You have to be kidding me! Our Boise St?! 03-banghead
Did you see the boxscore of their Grambling game? Go look, and then edit your post.
09-08-2010 10:41 AM
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YouCanUseaMint Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 09:20 AM)Burn the Horse Wrote:  
(09-07-2010 09:02 PM)YouCanUseaMint Wrote:  
(09-07-2010 08:23 PM)Hilltopper2K Wrote:  Just out of curiosity, would you prefer the Sunbelt or Wac lite?
A good question to ask is how would our fan base respond to the Belt. Some over at bobcatfans think there would only be short lasting excitement for FBS, until our base realizes the Belt is only the Southland on steroids. The WAC at least offers name recognition and something new to try (by no means am I trying to knock the Sun Belt).


I know you didn't mean any disrespect by this quote, but it was a bit insulting. The Southland on steroids? The footprints may be similar, but I'd be very careful when comparing BCS Conferences to FCS. Troy, Middle, FAU, and stAte would run roughshod through most Division 1-AA conferences. Troy and Middle especially. If Texas State were to jump up to FBS and come in to the Belt (like I support) it would be years before your athletic program could compete annually with the top of our Conference.

I apologize for the way it came out. By no means was I intending to insult the league or its member institutions. The Sunbelt isn’t a bad league – and with baseball being my favorite sport, I am the last one to insult it.

Think about it this way. Our students’ peers attend TAMU, TTU, UT, Baylor, UH, etc. It’s not that they support other schools, they are just apathetic to the teams we currently play. Southeastern LA, Nicholls, Northwestern State, etc just don’t bring the fans; I think the thought of others is will these apathetic fans get excited for Belt teams? Not sure. Again, this isn’t knocking you, it is more of a knock to our over-demanding fans.

Also, if and when we make the transition, I have no doubt it will take years to even be competitive in the WAC or Sunbelt. I just tend to think the competition in the WAC wouldn't be as tough if it is loaded with a handful of FCS teams, SJSU and NMSU...
09-08-2010 10:53 AM
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Post: #26
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 10:41 AM)Fanof49ASU Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 10:00 AM)FIUFan Wrote:  p.s. to the La Tech crowd, this could be your chance to be the lead dog (i.e. our Boise St., though I'm sure a handful of programs would beg to differ). 05-stirthepot
You have to be kidding me! Our Boise St?! 03-banghead
Did you see the boxscore of their Grambling game? Go look, and then edit your post.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/ne...ls-1122261

Just took a look at it. Looks pretty vanilla, which doesn't tell me a whole lot. Some programs use the first game against an FCS to concentrate on blocking and tackling. And by the way, did you not notice this universal symbol 05-stirthepot? Really, you need to stop taking youself so seriously.

But I do have to say that ASU looked very good v. Auburn this past week. They kept them off balance for much of the game, passed for more yards and held the ball longer. Auburn just had some great athletes which ended up overmatching your guys. But I just looked down your schedule and if you play with the same intensity you brought to Auburn, you could do some serious damamge. Louisville at home, at Indiana and Navy....hmmm.
09-08-2010 11:04 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 10:41 AM)Fanof49ASU Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 10:00 AM)FIUFan Wrote:  p.s. to the La Tech crowd, this could be your chance to be the lead dog (i.e. our Boise St., though I'm sure a handful of programs would beg to differ). 05-stirthepot

You have to be kidding me! Our Boise St?! 03-banghead
Did you see the boxscore of their Grambling game? Go look, and then edit your post.

Tech could be the SWAC's Boise 04-cheers
09-08-2010 11:04 AM
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Post: #28
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
For a minute, I was all for expansion in the SBC. However, in retrospect, my expansion thoughts were more so tied to seeing the WAC die than actually enhancing the SBC. After giving it some thought, I believe it is in the SBC's best interest to not expand. Instead, we need to enhance from within. We need to work to make sure all of the programs within the SBC are bettering their budgets, facilities, recruiting, and on the field play. On top of that, we need to work with the MAC or CUSA to secure a collaborative deal with ESPN to broadcast cross-conference games throughout the week. This collaborative effort would (1) help cure the scheduling problems teams are currently facing (with 8 conference games, if we can add a guaranteed game with either a MAC or CUSA school that is backed with television money we can do without having to play so many money games throughout the conference) and (2) generate more exposure for the conference. Wouldn't it be better to play 8 conference games, one FCS program, one MAC or CUSA program, one AQ program, and then have the option to schedule whoever we want for that last game?
09-08-2010 11:05 AM
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Post: #29
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
Arkstfan, I know you are viewed in the highest regard over here, but please explain how I have a math issue. Would you agree the two teams most likely to leave in some sort of fashion are LaTech and Hawaii? I am well aware that the WAC is on thin ice, but I also think Hawaii won't go independent and CUSA will pass up on LaTech - again. The WAC will have to reload with FCS teams, and bobcat fans are hoping Texas State is one of them.

Texas State stood down in the past because we simply weren't ready. I truly believe in this go-around, we have set ourselves up to afford whatever comes our way. Our budget today is $14-$15 million, which isn't even bottom of the Belt. By 2012, the student fees will be maxed out at $20 p/ hour and the budget will be even greater. Like I said, that rumor came from a LaTech poster. Even our AD has gone off record saying it isn't true.
09-08-2010 11:15 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 10:00 AM)FIUFan Wrote:  Just thinking aloud but since we stand a 10 members once USA gets up to speed, how 'bout adding Texas St and La Tech in a package deal which gets us to 12 schools and two divisions.

Here's your new East:
WKU
MTSU
Troy
FIU
FAU
USA

and West:
UNT
Texas St.
UL-L
La Tech
UL-M
ASU

And the geography forms a nice Sun Belt Arch from S. Texas to S. Fla. To me that looks solid for the long haul.

p.s. to the La Tech crowd, this could be your chance to be the lead dog (i.e. our Boise St., though I'm sure a handful of programs would beg to differ). 05-stirthepot
UNT (at least MG61) would crap itself twice before letting TxST into the Belt. If this was the setup, though, I would already have our end of the contract signed and waiting to be faxed over. 04-cheers
09-08-2010 11:20 AM
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MG61 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 11:20 AM)YouCanUseaMint Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 10:00 AM)FIUFan Wrote:  Just thinking aloud but since we stand a 10 members once USA gets up to speed, how 'bout adding Texas St and La Tech in a package deal which gets us to 12 schools and two divisions.

Here's your new East:
WKU
MTSU
Troy
FIU
FAU
USA

and West:
UNT
Texas St.
UL-L
La Tech
UL-M
ASU

And the geography forms a nice Sun Belt Arch from S. Texas to S. Fla. To me that looks solid for the long haul.

p.s. to the La Tech crowd, this could be your chance to be the lead dog (i.e. our Boise St., though I'm sure a handful of programs would beg to differ). 05-stirthepot
UNT (at least MG61) would crap itself twice before letting TxST into the Belt. If this was the setup, though, I would already have our end of the contract signed and waiting to be faxed over. 04-cheers

Right now Texas State has NOTHING to offer. A crappy basketball team that would pull our RPI down and football that would need several years to grow. Get your basketball in shape so you could be a contributor instead of a welfare receipiant, actually increase your football stadium seating instead of talk about it, become more than a mid-pack Southland football team and you could get more support. We aren't desperate like the WAC.:odie:
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2010 02:15 PM by MG61.)
09-08-2010 11:48 AM
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Fanof49ASU Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 11:04 AM)FIUFan Wrote:  Just took a look at it. Looks pretty vanilla, which doesn't tell me a whole lot. Some programs use the first game against an FCS to concentrate on blocking and tackling. And by the way, did you not notice this universal symbol 05-stirthepot? Really, you need to stop taking youself so seriously.

But I do have to say that ASU looked very good v. Auburn this past week. They kept them off balance for much of the game, passed for more yards and held the ball longer. Auburn just had some great athletes which ended up overmatching your guys. But I just looked down your schedule and if you play with the same intensity you brought to Auburn, you could do some serious damamge. Louisville at home, at Indiana and Navy....hmmm.

Yep.....my apologies....missed that.

Louisville and Indiana may prove to be fun games, but I can see Navy running wild on us. That triple option reminds me of the wishbone that I thoroughly enjoyed back in it's day.
09-08-2010 11:54 AM
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YouCanUseaMint Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
Quote:Right now Texas State has NOTHING to offer. A crappy basketball team that would pull our RPI down and football that would need several years to grow. Get your basketball in shape so you could be a contributor instead of a welfare receipiant, actually increase your football stadium seating instead of talk about it, become more than a mid-pack Southland football team and you could get more support. we aren't desperate like the WAC.:odie:

03-cloud9
09-08-2010 11:58 AM
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Post: #34
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 10:41 AM)Fanof49ASU Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 10:00 AM)FIUFan Wrote:  p.s. to the La Tech crowd, this could be your chance to be the lead dog (i.e. our Boise St., though I'm sure a handful of programs would beg to differ). 05-stirthepot

You have to be kidding me! Our Boise St?! 03-banghead
Did you see the boxscore of their Grambling game? Go look, and then edit your post.

I like latech just where they are...hanging by a thread from being independent...
09-08-2010 12:14 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #35
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 11:15 AM)YouCanUseaMint Wrote:  Arkstfan, I know you are viewed in the highest regard over here, but please explain how I have a math issue. Would you agree the two teams most likely to leave in some sort of fashion are LaTech and Hawaii? I am well aware that the WAC is on thin ice, but I also think Hawaii won't go independent and CUSA will pass up on LaTech - again. The WAC will have to reload with FCS teams, and bobcat fans are hoping Texas State is one of them.

Texas State stood down in the past because we simply weren't ready. I truly believe in this go-around, we have set ourselves up to afford whatever comes our way. Our budget today is $14-$15 million, which isn't even bottom of the Belt. By 2012, the student fees will be maxed out at $20 p/ hour and the budget will be even greater. Like I said, that rumor came from a LaTech poster. Even our AD has gone off record saying it isn't true.

WAC isn't an FBS conference unless there are two more members. There is no assurance that the BCS won't treat the WAC as a step-child while new programs transition (as it did with the Sun Belt not giving it a share comporable to say the MAC). That is a huge drop in league revenue available to be distributed.

If any of the six depart, all sports lose automatic bids absent special dispensation. SJSU has been on shakey ground in the past, Hawaii has talked for years of independence, La.Tech is actively seeking other affiliation. USU is actively working for other affiliation as well. So four of six are known to be trying to depart or have had financial issues that place their long-term health in doubt. Idaho had past issues trying to get approval for Sun Belt membership and given the financial state of the WAC, may not be permitted to carry on and will be under tight financial scrutiny no matter the outcome.

In 2008-09 Louisiana Tech received from the NCAA and the WAC $1,463,501.00. They paid $417,304.00 in dues (primarily to the WAC, NCAA fees are small, and unliked Sun Belt, WAC doesn't withhold any portion of money for league operations, they distribute all then invoice each school their share of league operations, Sun Belt does nominal dues paid after retaining a portion of income). They spent $2,554,014.00 on team travel. So Tech netted $1,046,197 in conference and NCAA revenue. After deducting travel costs which are primarily related to league travel they lost $1,507,817.

Compare that to their neighbor just down the road in Monroe.
Conference and NCAA revenue was $719,240.00. Memberships and dues were $176,329.00. They netted $542,911. The team travel was $1,072,118.00 making for a loss of $529,207.

HOWEVER

By the time Texas State or whomever could join the WAC, the WAC distribution to members will likely fall by at least a third while operating costs should remain constant unless they give up one or more bowl ties. Travel costs may improve slightly but overall the entire deal is a financial hit.

For Texas State to move up and into the WAC, beyond adding the required scholarships, increasing recruiting budget to be competitive, increasing salaries to be competitive, and adding additional opportunities for women for Title IX compliance to offset the additional 22 opportunities for males, you are looking at an increase in annual travel expenditures vs. the Southland that are not offset by conference revenue of $1 million to $1.25 million and that assumes that Texas State is not required to buy-in membership to the WAC. In the prior expansion, the three schools paid $750,000 each spread over three years.

By the time you factor in the added costs of merely being I-A and add to it the peculiar costs of being FBS in the WAC, you are paying a very high premium merely to be FBS, while running the risk that one of the remaining six leaves and you are stranded outside of the BCS system and without the ability to honestly tell recruits that winning the conference means an NCAA appearance in any sport.
09-08-2010 12:24 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
04-cheers '49 (just trying to cut-off the La Techsters before they started bitching about joining with all the start-ups).

Also, to asf, I can't tell if you're trying to talk the Tx. State fan out of the WAC or into the Belt....maybe both. In any event, as you might be able to tell, I've been advocating for the Belt to get to 12 for a while now, I love the two division look for some reason. Must be something to it, all the big boys are doing it.

Beyond that you look at the most viable programs out there and La Tech (established) and Tx. State (Texas money, school size, potential, etc.) seem to jump off the page both as practical and forward looking opportunities. These additions might also cushion against further expansion/poaching from other conferences. Yeah, WKU probably won't like the RPI hit but I think this could be a great time to strengthen the conference.
09-08-2010 01:53 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
did a North Texas guy really ***** about another team bringing the Sunbelt down. classic. you can pretty that stadium all you want but your football team is still a joke.
09-08-2010 02:14 PM
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MG61 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 02:14 PM)theATLDawg Wrote:  did a North Texas guy really ***** about another team bringing the Sunbelt down. classic. you can pretty that stadium all you want but your football team is still a joke.

Hey Slick, remember they are not a member and would need to bring something tangible to get in. Just can't stay away from the Belt board can ya ? Still waiting for you to post the photos of your athletic village that you claim will shame the Mean Green Village. Problem ?:odie:
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2010 02:30 PM by MG61.)
09-08-2010 02:18 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
I think it is problematic for Texas State to pay $1 million to maybe as much as $1.5 million more to be in the WAC rather than the Sun Belt.

Obviously they may not have a choice. Their options may very well be limited to SLC or WAC unless someone has some insight on the thinking of the 12 Sun Belt presidents and chancellors.

I suspect based on observing the last dozen or so schools to move up that Texas State has budgeted either in a relatively conservative manner (ie. what does FBS cost in Sun Belt) or in a hopeful manner (ie. assumed Sun Belt costs and peak WAC revenue). I can tell you that virtually every school to transition from Division II to I and every school to transition from FCS to FBS in the past 10 to 15 years has at least publicly over-stated their income vs. what they ended up generating and under-estimated their expenses. If Texas State hasn't they are far and away the exception.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm any good at predicting behavior.

A few years ago I predicted that Central Arkansas would not transition from Division II to Division I because they were going to be a million short in covering the costs. I was wrong. They did transition and they have since had a significant run-in with auditors from the legislature and the Arkansas Department of Higher Education for mis-stating their athletics deficit and their practices in covering that deficit (which unsuprisingly was a handful of dollars north of one million).

So, I can rationally tell you that Texas State isn't going to throw itself in a money pit (based in part on the fact they previously delayed moving because they didn't like the finance situation) but that doesn't mean their president or board may not take the leap to the WAC with the thought that getting to FBS is priority one and paying for it later is a problem for tomorrow.
09-08-2010 02:30 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Another bad break for the WAC
(09-08-2010 02:18 PM)MG61 Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 02:14 PM)theATLDawg Wrote:  did a North Texas guy really ***** about another team bringing the Sunbelt down. classic. you can pretty that stadium all you want but your football team is still a joke.

Hey Slick, remember they are not a member and would need to bring something tangible to get in. Just can't stay away from the Belt board can ya ? Still waiting for you to post the photos of your athletic village that you claim will shame the Mean Green Village. Problem ?:odie:
seen your athletic village in the prairie. grow some grass. oh thats right you can't. not only does everything TSU have to offer 1000 times better than UNT, it all sits on a beautiful campus. Let me clue you in. While they have a river running through it you have an interstate. That environment alone is worth bringing them into the WAC or SBC. and their name doesn't sound so well directional
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2010 03:18 PM by theATLDawg.)
09-08-2010 03:16 PM
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