(09-15-2009 07:12 PM)gsloth Wrote:  

(09-15-2009 02:39 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-15-2009 02:05 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  Do you think the government's motivation was anything OTHER than preventing another terrorist attack? That Bush (or Cheney) planned in 2000 to have to set up extraordinary measures?

I don't think you're demonizing Bush for disagreeing with him or believing he made mistakes.

But to the extent that someone (not necessarily you) believes his intentions were bad, I think that is making him out to be something he was not. And as to those on the far left who like to refer to "the Bush crime family" . . . yes that's demonizing him.

Which is worse, torture inflicted in the name of national defense (that

IMO, the left felt anger and frustration over the way the 2000 election was decided. This transformed into personal attacks on Bush and Cheney for the entire eight years and is still being exhibited in the efforts to hurt them in any way possible, regardless of consequences to others and to the nation. All I heard from the left at the time was that the war was about oil, it was about putting money in the pockets of his rich friends or Halliburton, it was about doing it for his daddy, etc. All we heard was either about his stupidity or his evil genius, whatever was convenient. There was no respect shown the presidency then. Now they wonder why Obama doesn't get respect to the extent they would like. You reap what you sow.

I won't say that it started with the Dems treatment of Bush, any more than it started with the Republicans treatment of Clinton. Or any number of incidents before it. Sure, it feels worse now, but this is hardly new stuff. I guess what's newer is the instantaneous feel, and the filter that isn't there any more in terms of "news" delivery (for better or worse). Those with power will do what they feel necessary to keep their power or grow their power. That is a truism of all time.

I didn't mean to imply it started 8.7 years ago. It probably has always existed to some degree. Certainly Lincoln had to endure barbs that he was an ape, dumber than than a post, and guided by the wrong people. he took a lot of heat for continuing in a war which was clearly unwinnable, (The war is lost!) at least to those who thought he was stupid. I remember the jokes that portrayed Ford as a klutz, and how much respect can you give someone who is always falling down. Clinton got a lot of disrespect for his philandering and later his perjury, but outside of that, not a lot. Bush 41 was called a liar because he broke a campaign promise. If that is the standard, they are all liars, including our current one. Maybe it is not an unbiased standard.

But I did sense an exponential increase in hatred/disrepect when Bush was elected in 2000. He was "selected, not elected" sounds a lot like the birthers, doesn't it? Basically, both are claiming an illegitimate president. Bush could never do anything right as far as the Bush haters were concerned, and everything was his fault. Gas prices up? Bush is lining the pockets of his rich friends. Gas prices down? Well, it can't be Bush, can it? The glasses of hatred will give that perception.

Obama is reaping some of that. Those that see things as "my side and his side" figure that if it is OK for the Dems to act like that for 8 years, it's OK for them to give tit for tat. Some of the dems who cheered the demostrations in front of the ranch at Crawford deplore the tea parties. The same ones who sat on their hands when Bush gave a speech are horrified that the Republicans aren't popping up like Pelosi at every pause. The people who didn't like being characterized as soft on terrorists are throwing around words like Nazi and racist. What goes around comes around.

The best way to get politeness and civility is to give it first. It will take some time to get back to that, if we ever can.

I think the process has been exacerbated as each party has been drawn more toward its political "base." There just aren't as many centrists in positions of power, in either party, as there were years ago.

I still think there's a real opportunity for a centrist third party. Shrub and the republicans screwed it up so badly that it's going to take people a while to come back to them. Obama and the democrats are in the process of screwing it up so badly that we may well end up longing for Shrub.