...Now we'll see who gets any kind of bragging rights. As this week we have the traditional top powers of the MAC going after the top powers of the WAC!
Fresno state vs. undefeated Toledo
Boise state vs. undefeated Bowling green
...Lets get it on!! both WAC powers are looking for a big win to launch their seasons. Both should be victorious, due to both games being played at the Doghouse, and on the Blue.
GOOD LUCK BOISE!!
C'MON DOGS!!
Only drag is fresno state game is on Tuesday, but at least it will give us a couple extra days to assure that we will have "Batman"(clifton smith) and Ookala(garrett mcintyre )back. We sure did miss him in Oregon. Great game my boys just took a little too long to adjust to the no huddle offense, very hard to defend when done properly. But how about Fresno putting 530 yards of offense on them!!
defense needs some work, Marshall better play his a$$ off!


SEND A STATEMENT DOGS!!

Well, BG isn't undefeated (they lost to Wisconsin), but regardless, it wouldn't be possible to come up with two better matchups for determining bragging rights between two similarly ranked conferences.

As bad as the WAC has started, the MAC hasn't done much better. Ohio beat a mediocre Pitt team, but after that, the second best win is probably Akron over Middle Tennessee St.

Go Broncos!! Go Dogs!!

Both Fresno and Boise State win these games. Honestly, I think the MAC gets respect out of proportion to its actual performance. They have some nice offenses at the top, virtually no defense anywhere, and enough dregs to form a rival Sun Belt. Terrible facilities across the board, as well. Playing in real stadiums alone should through Toledo and Bowling Green off their game.

(And yes, I realize what "stadium" Idaho plays in...)

*sob* I love the MAC, but just the fact that this season went down the crapper so quickly--that this week's highlight is a WAC vs. MAC challenge.....*sigh* (It will go downhill even more if Boise and Fresno both lose)

Vandal9570 Wrote:Terrible facilities across the board, as well. Playing in real stadiums alone should through Toledo and Bowling Green off their game.

(And yes, I realize what "stadium" Idaho plays in...)

Frankly, I fail to see the big difference here.

The WAC has the largest and smallest individual stadiums - but the average size of the two conference's stadiums are not that different. Other than FresnoSt and Hawaii's stadiums - no WAC program has room to cast dispersions at the MAC's facilities in terms of size.

In terms of dilapidation though - no stadium in the MAC is nearly as bad as NMSU's. Akron's is old and BGSU's is ugly - but they aren't small by WAC/MAC standards.

All told, these two conferences are VERY comparable in terms of size/facilities etc.

When the MAC adds Temple in two years (brand new Pro Football stadium holds 60,000 plus), the averages will probably flip flop.

Tha MAC also holds 3 games (EMU vs either CMU or WMU, MAC Championship, MotorCityBowl) annually in Ford Field (65,000). The MotorCityBowl outdraws any WAC bowl games and the GMAC Bowl always sells out.

Either Akron or KentSt also plays Army this year in Cleveland's Pro Stadium.

Hawaii 50,000
FresnoSt 41,031
Nevada 31,545
NMSU 30,343
UtahSt 30,257
LaTech 30,200
BoiseSt 30,000
SJSU 26,000
Idaho 16,000
WAC Average = 31,708

Akron 35,202
NIU 31,000
Buffalo 31,000 (beautiful stadium)
BGSU 30,599
KentSt 30,520
WMU 30,200 (relatively new expansions/renovations)
EMU 30,200 (relatively new expansions/renovations)
CMU 30,199 (relatively new expansions/renovations)
Miami(OH)30,012
Toledo 26,248 (absolutely beautiful stadium)
OhioU 24,000 (new expansion just finished)
BallSt 23,500
MAC Average = 29,390

As far as respect vs performance:
MAC has a BCS win this year (1-18), the WAC does not (0-12)
MAC is undefeated in non-BCS games (3-0), the WAC is not (1-4)
MAC is undefeated in I-AA games (4-0) - so is WAC (2-0)

WAC wins in these two head-to-head games could make the MAC advantages disappear. MAC wins make it impossible for the WAC to catch them later on.

All in all - a completely baseless comment.

nert Wrote:

Vandal9570 Wrote:Terrible facilities across the board, as well. Playing in real stadiums alone should through Toledo and Bowling Green off their game.

(And yes, I realize what "stadium" Idaho plays in...)

Frankly, I fail to see the big difference here.

The WAC has the largest and smallest individual stadiums - but the average size of the two conference's stadiums are not that different. Other than FresnoSt and Hawaii's stadiums - no WAC program has room to cast dispersions at the MAC's facilities in terms of size.

In terms of dilapidation though - no stadium in the MAC is nearly as bad as NMSU's. Akron's is old and BGSU's is ugly - but they aren't small by WAC/MAC standards.

All told, these two conferences are VERY comparable in terms of size/facilities etc.

When the MAC adds Temple in two years (brand new Pro Football stadium holds 60,000 plus), the averages will probably flip flop.

Tha MAC also holds 3 games (EMU vs either CMU or WMU, MAC Championship, MotorCityBowl) annually in Ford Field (65,000). The MotorCityBowl outdraws any WAC bowl games and the GMAC Bowl always sells out.

Either Akron or KentSt also plays Army this year in Cleveland's Pro Stadium.

Hawaii 50,000
FresnoSt 41,031
Nevada 31,545
NMSU 30,343
UtahSt 30,257
LaTech 30,200
BoiseSt 30,000
SJSU 26,000
Idaho 16,000
WAC Average = 31,708

Akron 35,202
NIU 31,000
Buffalo 31,000 (beautiful stadium)
BGSU 30,599
KentSt 30,520
WMU 30,200 (relatively new expansions/renovations)
EMU 30,200 (relatively new expansions/renovations)
CMU 30,199 (relatively new expansions/renovations)
Miami(OH)30,012
Toledo 26,248 (absolutely beautiful stadium)
OhioU 24,000 (new expansion just finished)
BallSt 23,500
MAC Average = 29,390

As far as respect vs performance:
MAC has a BCS win this year (1-18), the WAC does not (0-12)
MAC is undefeated in non-BCS games (3-0), the WAC is not (1-4)
MAC is undefeated in I-AA games (4-0) - so is WAC (2-0)

WAC wins in these two head-to-head games could make the MAC advantages disappear. MAC wins make it impossible for the WAC to catch them later on.

All in all - a completely baseless comment.

This is a transition year for the WAC and an obvious down year. Hard to compare numbers.
Apples and Oranges in many ways, but the leagues are comparible in strenth. The MAC has more teams and more bottom feeders...

It will be interesting to see how the leagues progress over the next 10 years. Look for a 40,000 seat stadium in Boise in 7 or 8 years. Broncos averaged 30,500 in 2004, could have averaged 35,000 if they had the seats.

I've been to three MAC stadiums, that are allegedly among the "better" MAC stadiums. They were absolutely terrible - aluminum bleachers, old stadiums that pushed seating to near (but not quite) 30,000 by building bad seats in endzones, etc.

Toledo plays in the Glass Bowl. It was built in the 1930's by the Works Progress Administration. It seats 26,000. The site lines are miserable. The slope of the stands is low.

I have seen Western Michigan, Central Michigan and Toledo's stadiums. I prefer any in the WAC (that I have visited) over them, and that includes the Kibbie Dome.

As far as the quality of the MAC - a bad Idaho team beat a MAC conference team that won four conference games last season, on their field, at their homecoming. We finished dead last in the Sun Belt, and Eastern Michigan was middle of the pack in the MAC. I think it's a soft conference. I think it gets respect on location, not quality, not quality of facilities, not athletic depart budgets, not overall athletic depart success. This is my opinion. It is also my opinion that both Boise State and Fresno should win with some ease. And yes, I think their home field advantages will be significant in the games.

The MAC stadiums:

Akron 35,202
NIU 31,000
Buffalo 31,000 (beautiful stadium) - Are you kidding me? This is a high school stadium!
BGSU 30,599
KentSt 30,520
WMU 30,200 (relatively new expansions/renovations) - Been here. Not impressive.
EMU 30,200 (relatively new expansions/renovations) - Ugly, empty stadium based on the pictures from Idaho's visit last year.
CMU 30,199 (relatively new expansions/renovations) - Been here. Not impressive.
Miami(OH)30,012
Toledo 26,248 (absolutely beautiful stadium) - Again: Are you serious? It's a nightmare!
OhioU 24,000 (new expansion just finished)
BallSt 23,500
MAC Average = 29,390

Playing in NFL stadiums doesn't impress me. It's not your home field. Idaho sometimes plays in PAC-10 stadium. We've been attacked for it. Some of the Sun Belt teams rent NFL and SEC stadiums for "home games" to try and get their attendance up (like Louisiana-Monroe playing in Little Rock). The Sun Belt plays their bowl game (played?) in the SuperDome. Washington State rents the SeaHawks stadium in Seattle. So what?

And I wouldn't exactly brag about adding Temple as a demonstration of a conference's improving quality or promise for the future... Especially if that conference just lost Marshall, and Temple is basically the replacement.

So, Nert - after watching the game on ESPN, do you want to tell me that Boise State and Fresno St. playing the MAC teams at home isn't a factor (which all that my stadium comment was initially ment to imply)? The Bronco stadium crowd looked pretty good...

At least better than this:

<a href='http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/united_states/ohio/bowling_green_perry.jpg' target='_blank'>Mighty Doyt Perry Stadium</a>

The MAC: Sun Belt North Division.

Vandal9570 Wrote:I have seen Western Michigan, Central Michigan and Toledo's stadiums. I prefer any in the WAC (that I have visited) over them, and that includes the Kibbie Dome.

are you really saying that this




is better than this?






please share whatever it is you're on.

Having been to more than a few WAC stadiums when I was in college (graduated from school that was in the WAC at the time) - and having been to many of the MAC's stadiums - I can tell that your posts aren't worth the time it took you to "not" spell check them.

Quote:Playing in real stadiums alone should through (could you mean "throw"?) Toledo and Bowling Green off their game.

Quote:....at home isn't a factor (which all that my stadium comment was initially ment (or perhaps "meant") to imply)?

As for the stadiums you mentioned:

CMU has very few stands in the endzones (despite your claim that they got to 30,000 by adding end zone seats) - in fact - it has only 15-20 rows of them in one end zone. The other end zone houses locker rooms, etc (which is new). The vast majority of its over 30,000 capacity is between the 20 yard lines on the home side. And the stadium is beautiful - built into the ground up to the top of the endzone and visitors' side, surrounded by pines, etc.

Toledo's Glass Bowl has been listed multiple times as one of the nation's best stadiums - and they often surpass its official capacity of 26,000. In fact, they have even averaged more than their official capacity. Your description of the Glass Bowl does not mirror reality. I assume you could not have actually been there - despite your claim. I will devote absolutely no time to defending this very fine (albeit slightly undersized) stadium.

WMU's Waldo stadium is a less picturesque stadium than CMU's or Toledo's but most of its seating is on the sidelines and of course, they average more fans than Idaho could hold.

BGSU's stadium is boring, ugly and old (I would never claim otherwise - it's my least favorite MAC stadium) - but it often gets filled - with about twice the capacity of Idaho's warehouse and practically the same capacity as BoiseSt's stadium. BGSU wasn't effected by the crowd size (which they are used to) - they were affected by not being very good this year (they nearly lost to perrenial cellar dweller BallSt last week). This is not "last year's BGSU". That said. Miami(OH) isn't what it was last year either - so BGSU might still win the MAC east division.

The sheer stupidity of someone whose team has a 16,000 seat warehouse calling Buffalo's 31,000 seat facility high school-ish is defenseless. I guess that makes Idaho a junior high.

And if you want to know what kind of facilities your conference has look for the post on the CUSAbbs from a UTEP fan about UTEP having to erect a tent so that their players could have someplace to change before their game at NMSU. That would never happen in the MAC.

<a href='http://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/confusa/invision/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=28631' target='_blank'>I couldn't believe this, How bad is NMSU's stadium</a>

EMU (a stadium I assume you have been to, since you played them recently) has no seats in the endzones - none. And all those aluminum benches (which Michigan, NotreDame etc would love to have to replace their old wood benches) are new, spacious and perfectly suited for a Michigan climate. Rynearson is a much better facility than the warehouse Idaho plays in (and yes, regretably, I have been there as well).

And while we're on EMU and their 4-4 MAC record last year: that does not make them a mid-MAC team. Look at who they beat in those 4 games (and every win they had was by 7 points or less):
(4-7) CMU (who beat (1-10) WMU, (2-9) BallSt, (6-5) KentSt and a I-AA team)
(2-9) BallSt (who beat (1-10) WMU, and (0-11) UCF)
(2-9) Buffalo (who beat (0-11) UCF and (4-7) CMU)
(1-10) WMU (who beat a I-AA team).
That's it. Last year, EMU didn't beat a single team with a winning record (which the MAC had 7) and the 4 teams they did beat, combined, only lodged a single win over a I-A opponent with a winning record - an average (6-5) KentSt team. 2 of their combined wins were over I-AA, and 4 were internal games (someone had to win those). 2 others were over hapless (0-11) UCF (which, thank god, is not part of the MAC anymore). So, that was not a middle of the MAC team - they were a team that played 4 other very bad MAC teams and barely beat them.

Finally, I never argued that playing at home wasn't an advantage for BoiseSt and FresnoSt - of course it is. Anyone has an advantage playing at home. But it certainly isn't because of the size or age or shape of the WAC stadiums is far superior to the stadiums they play in, in the MAC (which was your ridiculous and completely unsupportable contention). If you can't recall, here it is again:

Quote:Playing in real stadiums alone should through Toledo and Bowling Green off their game.

Also your argument about them being thrown off their game by the "big crowd" has no basis in facts. note the attendance numbers for these two games. <a href='http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=252640068&confId=16' target='_blank'>http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gam...40068&confId=16</a>
<a href='http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=243282649&confId=15' target='_blank'>http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gam...82649&confId=15</a>

Shrakkrocket Wrote:Also your argument about them being thrown off their game by the "big crowd" has no basis in facts. note the attendance numbers for these two games. <a href='http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=252640068&confId=16' target='_blank'>http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gam...40068&confId=16</a>
<a href='http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=243282649&confId=15' target='_blank'>http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gam...82649&confId=15</a>

BGSU was affected by the crowd noise. It was apparent at the game. The upper seating decks are at very steep angle and it keeps the crowd noise focused on the field. You may get a chance to experience it pretty soon since I believe we have a home and home scheduled.

Sorry to hurt your feelings MAC (and Toledo - must be tough following a school/town that was a running joke on M*A*S*H for a decade) fans. I'd rescind, if BSU hadn't mopped the floor with your conference's "elite." I also appreciate your declassifying them as "elite" after Boise State crushes them.

In response:

A.) I owned up to Idaho's facilities limitations in my first post. We play in a dome. Thanks for the reminder. It wasn't really the subject I was addressing, which was Fresno and Boise's superior home fields to Toledo and Bowling Green, which I expected to be packed, noisy, and distracting. The ESPN game tape would seem to confirm this. Having watched MAC championship games on television, I've never found the atmosphere to be comparable (excluding those played at Marshall).

The WAC fans aren't happy with our facility. We aren't happy with our facility. But at least we can say it was built in 1975 and has modern amenities, opposed to the standard MAC stadium erected in the 1930's by the WPA and "expanded" and "remodeled" by adding aluminum endzone bleachers (by the way - where in my post did I say this was true of Central Michigan? My only reference to CMU was that I hadn't been impressed with their stadium. Which I wasn't. It's pretty comparable to a handful of those in the Big Sky - particularly Montana and Montana State. But if we want to talk miserable endzone seating, I'll cite my two favorite examples of aluminum bleacher abuse to meet NCAA requirements: Western Michigan and Buffalo, which probably have half their stadium capacity is in the endzones, and in the case of Buffalo it's distanced from the field by a track. At least in that example, I would choose the Kibbie Dome, where we probably have an equal number of quality seats (about 12,000), and can generate a lot more fan noise than Buffalo, WMU, etc).

UB Stadium is a joke, and is comparable to a high school stadium, and does have the vast bulk of its aluminum bleachers (not seats, but entire bleachers) in the endzones behind a track:

<a href='http://football.ballparks.com/NCAA/MidAmerica/Buffalo/aerial.gif' target='_blank'>UB Stadium</a>

When I say this is a high school stadium, I mean that my large, Texas high school's stadium was nicer, and had more quality seats. Which is true.

B.) Yes, I'm aware that Bowling Green (and other MAC programs) have played, and occassionally play very well, in BCS venues, and are capable of having 30,000+ fans in their own venues. Big deal-it didn't show for much Wednesday night. Come back and brag when/if you beat BSU and FSU on your own fields next season. I strongly suspect you won't.

C.) "Toledo's Glass Bowl has been listed multiple times as one of the nation's best stadiums - and they often surpass its official capacity of 26,000." By who? An easy thing to say. Give me a reputable, independent source that would rather watch a game in the Glass Bowl than any Big-10 stadium. Or a PAC-10 stadium. Or the elite WAC stadiums - BSU, FSU, Hawaii. The only quality aspect of the Glass Bowl is the press box/luxury box complex. Which is nice. The rest of the stadium is a dump. Again - low capacity (what stadium can't surpass its official capacity?), low slope of the stands, bad sight lines. Get back to me when these things have changed.

D.) "WMU's Waldo stadium is a less picturesque [nice understatement] stadium than CMU's or Toledo's [not that they're especially picturesque] but most of its seating is on the sidelines [not at all valid: WMU's "luxury boxes" are built over the endzone complex, are they not? And isn't there a huge alumnimum bleacher in each endzone?] and of course, they average more fans than Idaho could hold [is that really true after their ESPN Bottom-10 finish last season? I'm willing to bet that if I tracked down their attendance figures, WMU averaged under 15,000 last year. In fact, I'm willing to bet that there's about 6-7 MAC teams with attendance equal to or worse than Idaho's for last season]."

Western Michigan's Waldo Stadium, which has "most of its seating on the sidelines:"

<a href='http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/united_states/michigan/kalamazoo_waldo.jpg' target='_blank'>Waldo</a>

That's true - about 55%=60% is technically "most."

E.) "And all those aluminum benches (which Michigan, NotreDame etc would love to have to replace their old wood benches) are new, spacious and perfectly suited for a Michigan climate." This is the first defense I have ever heard of aluminum bleachers (not seats-but the entire bleacher system, buddy) in a college stadium. Nothing says classy and high-budget like a stadium that looks (and sounds) like some 8 year-old's erector set about to tumble over. But I'm sure you're right - Michigan and Notre Dame would love to swap out their stadiums for a standard MAC venue. Why play in the Big House, when you could have the Glass Bowl? The Glass Bowl is the greatest stadium in America!

"perfectly suited for a Michigan climate"

Nothing beats sitting on aluminum in below freezing temperatures.

F.) "I can tell that your posts aren't worth the time it took you to "not" spell check them." 24 lines of text, and you find two typos. Which clearly discredits my entire argument much more effectively than Bowling Green's miserable performance in Boise. It's informal communication, not a technical report. If it was a technical report, I'd probably include more schematics of how bad the standard MAC stadium is.

G.) "And while we're on EMU and their 4-4 MAC record last year: that does not make them a mid-MAC team. Look at who they beat in those 4 games (and every win they had was by 7 points or less):
(4-7) CMU (who beat (1-10) WMU, (2-9) BallSt, (6-5) KentSt and a I-AA team)
(2-9) BallSt (who beat (1-10) WMU, and (0-11) UCF)
(2-9) Buffalo (who beat (0-11) UCF and (4-7) CMU)
(1-10) WMU (who beat a I-AA team)."

You definitely made the conference look better by citing four current MAC teams that lost 9+ games last season - UCF, Ball State, Buffalo and Western Michigan. Hey, Eastern still beat them. If Idaho was in the MAC last year, we'd probably have won five games, and maybe a whole division. Beat one D-1aa OOC, and we'd be bowl eligible (just like Kent State, right? Go Zips!)

H.) "Finally, I never argued that playing at home wasn't an advantage for BoiseSt and FresnoSt - of course it is. Anyone has an advantage playing at home. But it certainly isn't because of the size or age or shape of the WAC stadiums is far superior to the stadiums they play in, in the MAC (which was your ridiculous and completely unsupportable contention)."

Agreed - the stadium doesn't make the team. Idaho's current D-1a hopes hang on that belief. I initially argued that Boise State and Fresno State would win because they're better teams, and the WAC is a better conference. Then I moved on to the MAC stadiums as an smack-based aside, since none of them compare favorably to BSU and FSU (and most of them don't compare favorably to the WAC in general - Hawaii, Nevada, and even San Jose State are all better than the best current MAC on-campus stadiums, with UCF an exception since they play off campus in a nice, but empty, facility).

Thanks for the posts, MAC fans, and have a great season. You do have a lot to look forward to - the impending addition of Temple, which should give Eastern Michigan someone else they can beat, and maybe a future bowl arrangement with your geographic, budgetary, and facilities peers in the Sun Belt. Have fun.

vandal####: you need more fiber in your diet

1) toledo and the glass bowl
like it or not, toledo has often been praised in pre-season mags as having one of the nicer stadiums. i love the M*A*S*H reference - did you stay up all night coming up with that? ok, since we're using unsubstantiated and irrelevant material to criticize each other's area - "how's it going in idaho - you anti-american, militia-member, pototo-farming racist?" is that any less relevant than your M*A*S*H reference? just stupid.

2) idaho and the sun belt
this is really classy - disparaging a conference that you were just a member of. a conference that took you in when the one you're currently in wouldn't have you. and while we're on your admission to the wac - do you really think they would have taken you in if unt had come aboard. like it or not - your conference was rejected by a sun belt school - and you were lucky to have been one.

3) real stadiums
obviously, you lost this point - so you reverted to changing the topic. bugs wasn't intimindated by playing in a "real stadium" at boise because their own stadium is bigger and they often play in larger stadiums (including @wisconsin a few weeks ago). any conference with idaho's shed and nmsu piece of crap (love that link - very impressive wac stadium!) can not look down on the mac's facilities.

so, in the end - if you're changing your original across the board criticism that the wac facilities are far superior to the mac's to just: "buffalo's and wmu's are worse than boise's, hawaii's and frsno state's" then i agree. but there isn't a single mac stadium as bad as idaho's shed or nmsu's dump.

Vandal9570 Wrote:Both Fresno and Boise State win these games. Honestly, I think the MAC gets respect out of proportion to its actual performance. They have some nice offenses at the top, virtually no defense anywhere, and enough dregs to form a rival Sun Belt. Terrible facilities across the board, as well. Playing in real stadiums alone should through Toledo and Bowling Green off their game.

(And yes, I realize what "stadium" Idaho plays in...)

Dude. BG won at Purdue in 2003. They also beat Northwestern in the MCB in front of 51K. And they played at Ohio State (over 100K in attendance) and only lost 24-17. In 2004 they played at Oklahoma and gave the Sooners a good game. This year BG played at Wisconsin and only lost 56-42.

If you think any WAC stadium is going to throw BG off their game you are funny.


Boise State beat BG bad the other day, but it wasn't because of the stadium and crowd. It was because BG has no defense and Boise State is a great football team at home. If this game would have been in BG, a place where BG hasn't lost in like 22 straight games, it would have been a different story. But not because of crowd noise.


As for Toledo playing in Fresno. Toledo has played their share of games at big stadiums that the WAC stadiums don't even compare to. Toledo runs a no huddle offense where the play call is sent in from the sideline through hand signals. All players watch the signal from the sideline so there is no reason to call out the play. Noise will not effect the call of the play. It could possibly effect the snap of the ball, but that is highly unlikely with Toledo.


I think the WAC will find that Toledo will be a much tougher opponent for Fresno State than BG was for Boise State. Toledo's defense is much better than BG's and our offense has a lot of depth. When your 4th string running back is averaging 85 yards rushing a game, you average 10 different receivers with catches in a game, and your backup QB has completed 14 of 16 passes with no INT's, you have depth.

Not sure why this thread was linked to the Sun Belt board.

We in the Belt hated to see NMSU go but I had predicted that NMSU and UTEP were two schools that would easily survive realignment because they could align West or East. After traveling out west I understand their desire to align West because if you are going to have a choice choose the more similar geography.

Utah State and Idaho weren't so much a marriage with the Sun Belt as it was going steady. We didn't like traveling out there, they didn't like traveling out here.

One thing EVERYONE ought to keep in mind regarding Idaho. They had two major problems. One they had one of the more inept coaches I-A has seen. They have corrected that problem. Two the downside of Sun Belt membership for them (other than not winning many games) was that they never had the opportunity to play regional opponents in those last half of the season games when official and unofficial visits are so key to recruiting. They brought kids in to see them play teams from the southeast and between poor records and no built-in rivalry attitude they saw lackluster crowds for games against teams they didn't recognize. For the rest of us in the Belt we had the one Idaho game but we at least had some late season games against teams within driving distance.

I expect the WAC will be pleased with how the three Sun Belt departees end up performing down the road.

gaard Wrote:

Shrakkrocket Wrote:Also your argument about them being thrown off their game by the "big crowd" has no basis in facts.&nbsp; note the attendance numbers for these two games.&nbsp; <a href='http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=252640068&confId=16' target='_blank'>http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gam...40068&confId=16</a>
<a href='http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=243282649&confId=15' target='_blank'>http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gam...82649&confId=15</a>

BGSU was affected by the crowd noise. It was apparent at the game. The upper seating decks are at very steep angle and it keeps the crowd noise focused on the field. You may get a chance to experience it pretty soon since I believe we have a home and home scheduled.

Give me a break. BG was affected by Omar playing bad and Boise State playing good. It had nothing to do with crowd noise. Are you trying to say that BSU's stadium is louder than Ohio State's, Oklahoma's, Purdue's, and Wisconsin's stadiums? :withstupid:

rocketfootball Wrote:

gaard Wrote:

Shrakkrocket Wrote:Also your argument about them being thrown off their game by the "big crowd" has no basis in facts. &nbsp; note the attendance numbers for these two games. &nbsp; <a href='http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=252640068&confId=16' target='_blank'>http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gam...40068&confId=16</a>
<a href='http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=243282649&confId=15' target='_blank'>http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gam...82649&confId=15</a>

BGSU was affected by the crowd noise. It was apparent at the game. The upper seating decks are at very steep angle and it keeps the crowd noise focused on the field. You may get a chance to experience it pretty soon since I believe we have a home and home scheduled.

Give me a break. BG was affected by Omar playing bad and Boise State playing good. It had nothing to do with crowd noise. Are you trying to say that BSU's stadium is louder than Ohio State's, Oklahoma's, Purdue's, and Wisconsin's stadiums? :withstupid:

Well, Yes....Sort of.... Ask John L. Smith!!
The way that Bronco Stadium is constructed with steep sides seems to funnel the sound to the field and reverberate back and forth creating a very loud noise on the field and both sides of the stadium. Talked to a OSU fan last year that attended both the LSU and BSU games and he said he could not believe how loud it was at Bronco stadium and he really said it was louder than LSU.

Hate to get into facility arguments, but just had to add my 2 cents here.....

Huron? I thought you were the Eagles now. You know, so you don't get banned from post-season competition, which is a big concern there in Ypsilanti. And no, it didn't take me all night to think that up, either. I'm at the computer in the morning, and that's when you'll hear from me. I do try to get some work done during the day...

As to the original post: it was smack, and it's my opinion. Thanks for biting. I'd feel a lot worse about it if BGSU had performed better Wednesday night.

My opinion(s):

The top of the WAC is better than the top of the MAC. The bottom of the WAC is better than the bottom of the MAC. I think Idaho demonstrated that in beating a team that was .500 in your conference last season (which, to my eyes, makes you an average MAC team, despite what your friends in Toledo have to say). And as a result, the WAC is a better conference than the WAC. Conference RPI through this season, and into the future, will confirm this.

Most WAC stadiums are better than most MAC stadiums. It's not just WMU and Buffalo. I posted on the obvious ones, and those that I'm familiar with. I honestly don't like any of them that I've seen, whether in person or on television. It's a minor point. Stadiums aren't ultimately that important, and weren't really the focus of my initial post (although Nert and the rocket dude ran with it). A program can be (relatively) successful with a bad one. North Texas has one of the worst in the Sun Belt, and they still win their conference.

I can't comment on New Mexico State - I've spent about an hour in that state, in an airport. I know the rest of the WAC, though, and only Idaho's Kibbie Dome stands out as being comparable to a standard MAC program. But I'll get to that later.

As a mid-major, I think the MAC is over-rated, is below the WAC in quality of conference, and is only a half step above the Sun Belt, which got a lot shorter with the departure of Marshall.

There are exceptions to the facility issue, and Idaho is among them. I'm honest about Idaho's problems. We have a small (but certainly not the smallest) budget for a mid-major program. We have good support facilities (weight rooms, locker rooms, practice fields, training and rehabilitation, etc.). We have an excellent core of very loyal fans and boosters. We currently have a strong coaching staff. We have an excellent tradition in the sport. And we have a poor stadium situation that is a product of miserable planning in the past. I anticipate that this will be corrected in the future. When it is, it won't be corrected by ringing a seventy year-old stadium with aluminum bleachers and calling it a remodel, which seems to be MAC tradition. Until then, though, I'll call the Kibbie Dome what it is: inadequate. But at least we can fill it (watch the Hawaii game this Saturday), and when we do, at least it's a decent home atmosphere. I'll take it over a half-empty Rynearson Stadium that's larger than your needs, quiet as a crypt, and ugly to boot.

1.) "like it or not, toledo has often been praised in pre-season mags as having one of the nicer stadiums"

Find 'em. The seating design is still bad. Why does no one answer to this?

"i love the M*A*S*H reference"

Thanks. I have nothing against Toledo. It's just what I think of when I think Toledo.

"irrelevant material to criticize each other's area"

It's a sports message board, not a presidential debate. A little ribbing is customary. The Idaho comments don't bother me. I'm not that thin-skinned. Surprised to see that so much of MAC country is.

2.) "this is really classy - disparaging a conference that you were just a member of."

I like the Sun Belt. I cheer for the Sun Belt. I like under dogs, and that includes the MAC. It feels good when you knock off your Big 10 or Big East neighbors (and congratultions to Ohio for doing that this year). The Sun Belt helped out Idaho a ton, and I'll always be grateful for that. It doesn't change the fact that they're currently the worst conference in D-1a football, with an RPI lower than a handful of D-1aa teams. They'll build it. Wright Waters is a good commisioner, and many of their schools have potential (more so than many in the MAC - how do your cities' and schools' growth rates compare to theirs?). Given time, I think the Sun Belt will probably be a better conference than the MAC.

3.) "real stadiums - obviously, you lost this point "

I don't feel that I lost it, but I don't feel it's especially important. In my original post, which looked something like this,

'Both Fresno and Boise State win these games. Honestly, I think the MAC gets respect out of proportion to its actual performance. They have some nice offenses at the top, virtually no defense anywhere, and enough dregs to form a rival Sun Belt. Terrible facilities across the board, as well. Playing in real stadiums alone should through Toledo and Bowling Green off their game.'

I wanted to emphasize that I believe Fresno and Boise are better teams than Toledo and BGSU, that the WAC is a better conference than the MAC, and that the atmosphere of the MAC stadiums (across the board) does not compare to the atmosphere of either Fresno or Boise (where did I mention WAC facilities 'across the board' in the initial post? At first, it was MAC vs. FSU and BSU. It's been expanded since, and on average, I think the WAC is better. Fresno and Boise absolutely are). This is my opinion. Regardless of size, your ephemeral preseason rankings, etc., the MAC stadiums are unattractive, quiet, often empty (if you aren't one of the "elite" programs), and not comparable to what Toledo will face in Fresno. Good luck.

arkstfan Wrote:Not sure why this thread was linked to the Sun Belt board.

We in the Belt hated to see NMSU go but I had predicted that NMSU and UTEP were two schools that would easily survive realignment because they could align West or East. After traveling out west I understand their desire to align West because if you are going to have a choice choose the more similar geography.

Utah State and Idaho weren't so much a marriage with the Sun Belt as it was going steady. We didn't like traveling out there, they didn't like traveling out here.

One thing EVERYONE ought to keep in mind regarding Idaho. They had two major problems. One they had one of the more inept coaches I-A has seen. They have corrected that problem. Two the downside of Sun Belt membership for them (other than not winning many games) was that they never had the opportunity to play regional opponents in those last half of the season games when official and unofficial visits are so key to recruiting. They brought kids in to see them play teams from the southeast and between poor records and no built-in rivalry attitude they saw lackluster crowds for games against teams they didn't recognize. For the rest of us in the Belt we had the one Idaho game but we at least had some late season games against teams within driving distance.

I expect the WAC will be pleased with how the three Sun Belt departees end up performing down the road.

ArkStFan, nice to see your post here, had no idea someone linked over your way....

I almost always agree with you, but I think Tom Cable was not as inept as you described. He seems to be doing Okay as the UCLA OC. I just think he was put in a bad situation at Idaho. Hard to recruit at a northwest school that plays their games east of Texas and plays in a quonset hut.....

Even the Idaho fans refused to watch La, La in their dome........

Idaho should fare better in the WAC, but Tom Cable would have fared better in the WAC too.......