Phelps family member charged after son steps on flag
By Oskar Garcia
The Associated Press
Published Friday, July 06, 2007
OMAHA, Neb. — A Topeka woman whose church protests at military funerals across the nation was charged Thursday with four misdemeanors after her son stomped on a U.S. flag during a demonstration in Bellevue.

Shirley Phelps-Roper, 49, was charged with negligent child abuse, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, flag mutilation and disturbing the peace.

"I have not failed to do my duty to my children, to my God or to my fellow countrymen, and I take my job dead serious," Phelps-Roper said Thursday, vowing to aggressively fight the charges.

The charges were filed in Sarpy County Court by County Attorney Lee Polikov. A message left Thursday afternoon for Polikov wasn't immediately returned.

Phelps-Roper said Polikov "has pointed the big guns of government at my liberty and at my children."

The American Civil Liberties Union likely will represent Phelps-Roper and was waiting for official approval from its board, said Laurel Marsh, executive director of ACLU Nebraska.

Phelps-Roper acknowledged she allowed her 10-year-old son, Jonah, to stand on the flag. She said the act qualifies as freedom of expression, and she promises to challenge the constitutionality of the flag-mutilation charge. She noted that the U.S. Supreme Court has struck down laws forbidding flag desecration.

According to Nebraska's flag law, "A person commits the offense of mutilating a flag if such person intentionally casts contempt or ridicule upon a flag by mutilating, defacing, defiling, burning or trampling upon such flag."

Phelps-Roper is a member of the Westboro Baptist Church and the daughter of the church's founder, Pastor Fred Phelps.

Phelps-Roper said church members have protested at hundreds of military funerals across the country for 17 years. Westboro's message during funeral protests is that the soldier deaths are God's punishment for the nation accepting homosexuals.

The Bellevue funeral was for Nebraska Army National Guard Spc. William "Bill" Bailey, who was killed May 25 when an explosive device struck his vehicle in Iraq.

linkapedia
Religious conservatives charged with laws brought from political conservatives; only to be helped by the ACLU liberals!
:patriot:

geez

phelps isn't a christian, more of a cult leader........not a 'religious conservative'

search for "Tachmonite" sometime, thats what they refer to themselves as apparently and they think Phelps is the "last prophet" or something with the power to do Final Judgements....

he's not a conservative either, he openly supports leftist dictators like Castro and the Mullahs because their regimes oppress homosexuals.

he's also a registered Dem, whose ran for office several times in Kansas in the 90's, supported Al Gore in 88 and 92 but then turned against him(I guess for saying something nice about gays?).

http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/...s.results/

Quote: Kansas Primary Results -- Aug. 4, 1998
By Congressional Quarterly

GOVERNOR

*Tom Sawyer (D) 87,438 85.3%
Wichita 40 State representative
Fred Phelps (D) 15,123 14.7%
Topeka 68 Minister[/b]

*Bill Graves ® 222,918 72.8%
Salina 45 Incumbent
David Miller ® 83,128 27.2%
Eudora 48 Former state party chairman

looks like 14.7% of kansas is nuts, as of 1998. anyway, its no wonder he protested Falwells funeral not to mention Ronald Reagans.

GGniner Wrote:phelps isn't a christian, more of a cult leader........not a 'religious conservative'

search for "Tachmonite" sometime, thats what they refer to themselves as apparently and they think Phelps is the "last prophet" or something with the power to do Final Judgements....

he's not a conservative either, he openly supports leftist dictators like Castro and the Mullahs because their regimes oppress homosexuals.

he's also a registered Dem, whose ran for office several times in Kansas in the 90's, supported Al Gore in 88 and 92 but then turned against him(I guess for saying something nice about gays?).

http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/...s.results/

Quote: Kansas Primary Results -- Aug. 4, 1998
By Congressional Quarterly

GOVERNOR

*Tom Sawyer (D) 87,438 85.3%
Wichita 40 State representative
Fred Phelps (D) 15,123 14.7%
Topeka 68 Minister[/b]

*Bill Graves ® 222,918 72.8%
Salina 45 Incumbent
David Miller ® 83,128 27.2%
Eudora 48 Former state party chairman

looks like 14.7% of kansas is nuts, as of 1998. anyway, its no wonder he protested Falwells funeral not to mention Ronald Reagans.

Phelps is a Christian minister, so he's a Christian. Don't use the Scotsman fallacy here.

And he's extremely conservative. A "D" next to your name does not make you a liberal for two reasons. One is that the Democratic Party is centrist, and the other is that there are many people are are Democrats in name but very conservative in their actions and policies--especially in the South...

Also, Castro and (especially) the Mullahs can hardly be considered leftists (again, esp. the Mullahs).

Sophandros Wrote:Phelps is a Christian minister, so he's a Christian. Don't use the Scotsman fallacy here.

And he's extremely conservative. A "D" next to your name does not make you a liberal for two reasons. One is that the Democratic Party is centrist, and the other is that there are many people are are Democrats in name but very conservative in their actions and policies--especially in the South...

Also, Castro and (especially) the Mullahs can hardly be considered leftists (again, esp. the Mullahs).

no, he's a cultist. You won't find many prominent Christian leaders that would call him a true christian. He focuses NOT on the gospel, but on the sin of homosexuality... His followers think he's the 'final prophet' for crying out loud? I mean good grief, he protested Jerry Falwells Funeral.
last time I checked Falwell was the symbol of the 'religious conservatives'.


This is how Phil Johnson described the 'church' and its teachings from an expose on them:

Quote:Here's a Topeka, Kansas, "Baptist" church that has managed to mangle the gospel so completely that hate, rather than love, is at the heart of the message they proclaim. They picket funerals of AIDS victims, carrying signs saying "No Tears for Queers."

An eye-opening expose of the Phelps clan ("Addicted to Hate," by investigative reporter Jon Michael Bell) is on line, Exhibit A in some court documents in a lawsuit involving a Topeka newspaper.[/quote]

Castro not a leftist, that is laughable and the mullahs are especially leftist. They are for huge, controlling, centrally planned, socialist governments. The complete anti-thesis of the 'right'. the largest Oil Company of the world is owned and run by the Government of Iran, they are leftist. a regime on the right would allow private citizens to own and operate it.

GGniner Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:Phelps is a Christian minister, so he's a Christian. Don't use the Scotsman fallacy here.

And he's extremely conservative. A "D" next to your name does not make you a liberal for two reasons. One is that the Democratic Party is centrist, and the other is that there are many people are are Democrats in name but very conservative in their actions and policies--especially in the South...

Also, Castro and (especially) the Mullahs can hardly be considered leftists (again, esp. the Mullahs).

no, he's a cultist. You won't find many prominent Christian leaders that would call him a true christian. He focuses NOT on the gospel, but on the sin of homosexuality... His followers think he's the 'final prophet' for crying out loud? I mean good grief, he protested Jerry Falwells Funeral.
last time I checked Falwell was the symbol of the 'religious conservatives'.


This is how Phil Johnson described the 'church' and its teachings from an expose on them:

Quote:Here's a Topeka, Kansas, "Baptist" church that has managed to mangle the gospel so completely that hate, rather than love, is at the heart of the message they proclaim. They picket funerals of AIDS victims, carrying signs saying "No Tears for Queers."

An eye-opening expose of the Phelps clan ("Addicted to Hate," by investigative reporter Jon Michael Bell) is on line, Exhibit A in some court documents in a lawsuit involving a Topeka newspaper.

Castro not a leftist, that is laughable and the mullahs are especially leftist. They are for huge, controlling, centrally planned, socialist governments. The complete anti-thesis of the 'right'.
[/quote]

The fact that left ideology focuses on civil liberties and religious freedom is evidence that both Castro and the Mullahs are not leftists. Note, I did not say that they are right wing, either. Both are totalitarian, which runs counter to both left wing and right wing ideologies as we define them here in the United States.

Phelps even sent some of his minions to the Southern Baptist Convention to protest its dedication of a statue honoring Billy Graham. There are not many Christians who would protest anyone bestowing an honorary thank you to Billy Graham. The guy is a wacko. I hope his grandson gets shipped to foster care for a month or so. Then he and his cult would have to spend time working to get junior back. Its nice that the ACLU is taking their case, that way he doesn't have to spend his own money hiring a lawyer. I'm sure they'll appreciate his hospitality when he turns up protesting the next gay pride march.

EastStang Wrote:Phelps even sent some of his minions to the Southern Baptist Convention to protest its dedication of a statue honoring Billy Graham. There are not many Christians who would protest anyone bestowing an honorary thank you to Billy Graham. The guy is a wacko. I hope his grandson gets shipped to foster care for a month or so. Then he and his cult would have to spend time working to get junior back. Its nice that the ACLU is taking their case, that way he doesn't have to spend his own money hiring a lawyer. I'm sure they'll appreciate his hospitality when he turns up protesting the next gay pride march.

I think that many people here will be surprised at the cases that the ACLU takes up, because it would shatter their dualistic world view.

GGniner Wrote:phelps isn't a christian, more of a cult leader........not a 'religious conservative'

search for "Tachmonite" sometime, thats what they refer to themselves as apparently and they think Phelps is the "last prophet" or something with the power to do Final Judgements....

he's not a conservative either, he openly supports leftist dictators like Castro and the Mullahs because their regimes oppress homosexuals.

he's also a registered Dem, whose ran for office several times in Kansas in the 90's, supported Al Gore in 88 and 92 but then turned against him(I guess for saying something nice about gays?).

http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/...s.results/

Quote: Kansas Primary Results -- Aug. 4, 1998
By Congressional Quarterly

GOVERNOR

*Tom Sawyer (D) 87,438 85.3%
Wichita 40 State representative
Fred Phelps (D) 15,123 14.7%
Topeka 68 Minister[/b]

*Bill Graves ® 222,918 72.8%
Salina 45 Incumbent
David Miller ® 83,128 27.2%
Eudora 48 Former state party chairman

looks like 14.7% of kansas is nuts, as of 1998. anyway, its no wonder he protested Falwells funeral not to mention Ronald Reagans.

i lived in kansas at the time of this election. phelps ran as a dem because he couldnt get on the ballot as a repub. the internal rules of the Kansas Democratic party allowed for easier access to the ballot for phelps. as far as his 14.7 precent.....i know a lot of dems who voted for him as a protest to tom sawyer. im a pretty laid back guy, but i called former speaker sawyer a pandering idiot to his face back in 1998 after a KU Young Democrat meeting. think mitt romney without the money name recognition, charm, charisma, or intelligence....and then add a gimmicky name and you have tom sawyer and taa-daa, fred phelps gets 14.7 percent of the vote.. i voted for neither.

yes, i one time i was a democrat.

GGniner Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:Phelps is a Christian minister, so he's a Christian. Don't use the Scotsman fallacy here.

And he's extremely conservative. A "D" next to your name does not make you a liberal for two reasons. One is that the Democratic Party is centrist, and the other is that there are many people are are Democrats in name but very conservative in their actions and policies--especially in the South...

Also, Castro and (especially) the Mullahs can hardly be considered leftists (again, esp. the Mullahs).

no, he's a cultist. You won't find many prominent Christian leaders that would call him a true christian. He focuses NOT on the gospel, but on the sin of homosexuality... His followers think he's the 'final prophet' for crying out loud? I mean good grief, he protested Jerry Falwells Funeral.
last time I checked Falwell was the symbol of the 'religious conservatives'.


This is how Phil Johnson described the 'church' and its teachings from an expose on them:

Quote:Here's a Topeka, Kansas, "Baptist" church that has managed to mangle the gospel so completely that hate, rather than love, is at the heart of the message they proclaim. They picket funerals of AIDS victims, carrying signs saying "No Tears for Queers."

An eye-opening expose of the Phelps clan ("Addicted to Hate," by investigative reporter Jon Michael Bell) is on line, Exhibit A in some court documents in a lawsuit involving a Topeka newspaper.

Dude, you ROUTINELY bash the religion of Islam based on what cultists who claim to be Muslims do.

To you, they are Muslims because they say they are Muslims, and then you use their actions to imply that Islam itself is a threat.

Then you turn around here and say that these guys aren't really Christian and don't represent Christianity, but are just cultists?

Thats bull****, and you're getting called on it.

OUGwave Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:Phelps is a Christian minister, so he's a Christian. Don't use the Scotsman fallacy here.

And he's extremely conservative. A "D" next to your name does not make you a liberal for two reasons. One is that the Democratic Party is centrist, and the other is that there are many people are are Democrats in name but very conservative in their actions and policies--especially in the South...

Also, Castro and (especially) the Mullahs can hardly be considered leftists (again, esp. the Mullahs).

no, he's a cultist. You won't find many prominent Christian leaders that would call him a true christian. He focuses NOT on the gospel, but on the sin of homosexuality... His followers think he's the 'final prophet' for crying out loud? I mean good grief, he protested Jerry Falwells Funeral.
last time I checked Falwell was the symbol of the 'religious conservatives'.


This is how Phil Johnson described the 'church' and its teachings from an expose on them:

Quote:Here's a Topeka, Kansas, "Baptist" church that has managed to mangle the gospel so completely that hate, rather than love, is at the heart of the message they proclaim. They picket funerals of AIDS victims, carrying signs saying "No Tears for Queers."

An eye-opening expose of the Phelps clan ("Addicted to Hate," by investigative reporter Jon Michael Bell) is on line, Exhibit A in some court documents in a lawsuit involving a Topeka newspaper.

Dude, you ROUTINELY bash the religion of Islam based on what cultists who claim to be Muslims do.

To you, they are Muslims because they say they are Muslims, and then you use their actions to imply that Islam itself is a threat.

Then you turn around here and say that these guys aren't really Christian and don't represent Christianity, but are just cultists?

Thats bull****, and you're getting called on it.

Careful. If you don't stop they will start calling you names like "Al OUGwave".

Nice call on the Scotsman fallacy. I always get a laugh when I see that one.

OUGwave Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:Phelps is a Christian minister, so he's a Christian. Don't use the Scotsman fallacy here.

And he's extremely conservative. A "D" next to your name does not make you a liberal for two reasons. One is that the Democratic Party is centrist, and the other is that there are many people are are Democrats in name but very conservative in their actions and policies--especially in the South...

Also, Castro and (especially) the Mullahs can hardly be considered leftists (again, esp. the Mullahs).

no, he's a cultist. You won't find many prominent Christian leaders that would call him a true christian. He focuses NOT on the gospel, but on the sin of homosexuality... His followers think he's the 'final prophet' for crying out loud? I mean good grief, he protested Jerry Falwells Funeral.
last time I checked Falwell was the symbol of the 'religious conservatives'.


This is how Phil Johnson described the 'church' and its teachings from an expose on them:

Quote:Here's a Topeka, Kansas, "Baptist" church that has managed to mangle the gospel so completely that hate, rather than love, is at the heart of the message they proclaim. They picket funerals of AIDS victims, carrying signs saying "No Tears for Queers."

An eye-opening expose of the Phelps clan ("Addicted to Hate," by investigative reporter Jon Michael Bell) is on line, Exhibit A in some court documents in a lawsuit involving a Topeka newspaper.

Dude, you ROUTINELY bash the religion of Islam based on what cultists who claim to be Muslims do.

To you, they are Muslims because they say they are Muslims, and then you use their actions to imply that Islam itself is a threat.

Then you turn around here and say that these guys aren't really Christian and don't represent Christianity, but are just cultists?

Thats bull****, and you're getting called on it.

Quit being a dumb***....

The major difference is that "Christians" in general have called these guys out for being cultists and not representing the faith. I do not see the "Muslims" and Imams doing the same for their lunatic fringe terrorists. By not doing so, in my view, they are supporting the actions of these terrorists. Calling them martyrs would also qualify as support.

Sophandros Wrote:The fact that left ideology focuses on civil liberties and religious freedom is evidence that both Castro and the Mullahs are not leftists. Note, I did not say that they are right wing, either. Both are totalitarian, which runs counter to both left wing and right wing ideologies as we define them here in the United States.

So you get to cherry pick what you see as the best tenets of leftism, and reject those that you abhor, but when GGniner rejects Phelps you call foul, "Phelps is a Christian minister, so he's a Christian. Don't use the Scotsman fallacy here."?

Sorry, I don't buy it and you're doing the same thing you accuse GGniner of doing. Leftism has just as many problems as rightism and yes, Castro is a leftist.

aTxTIGER Wrote:i lived in kansas at the time of this election. phelps ran as a dem because he couldnt get on the ballot as a repub. the internal rules of the Kansas Democratic party allowed for easier access to the ballot for phelps. as far as his 14.7 precent.....i know a lot of dems who voted for him as a protest to tom sawyer. im a pretty laid back guy, but i called former speaker sawyer a pandering idiot to his face back in 1998 after a KU Young Democrat meeting. think mitt romney without the money name recognition, charm, charisma, or intelligence....and then add a gimmicky name and you have tom sawyer and taa-daa, fred phelps gets 14.7 percent of the vote.. i voted for neither.

yes, i one time i was a democrat.

according to Wiki(I know), he's a longtime Dem...

Quote:Democratic Party
Phelps has run in various Kansas Democratic Party primaries five times, but has never won. These included races for governor in 1990, 1994, and 1998, receiving about 15% of the vote in 1998.[30] In the 1992 Democratic Party primary for U.S. Senate, Phelps received 31% of the vote [31]

Support for Al Gore
Phelps supported Al Gore in the 1988 Democratic Party primary election.[32] In his 1984 Senate race, Gore opposed a "gay bill of rights" and stated that homosexuality was not something that "society should affirm".[33] Phelps has stated that he supported Gore because of these earlier comments.[34] According to Phelps, members of the Westboro Baptist Church helped run Gore's 1988 campaign in Kansas. Phelps' son, Fred Phelps Jr., hosted a Gore fundraiser, which Al and Tipper Gore attended, at his home in Topeka.[8][34] Fred Phelps, Jr. served as a Gore delegate to the 1988 Democratic National Convention.[34][35] Gore spokesman Dag Vega declined to comment; "We are not dignifying those stories with a response."[36]

what he really is of course, is a life long nutcase. But I don't think he's ever been a republican.[/quote]

Quote:The Westboro Baptist Church is a cult lead by Fred Phelps, (self-acclaimed minister), and have been excommunicated from the Baptist Church]

Christianity is not what a person teaches or what some cult talks about. It is the Scriptures, with emphasis on the Gospels obviously. It provides the answers to the big philosophical questions of the great philosophers going back to Plato, Aristotle and even before.

What Phelps is doing is nothing new, in some ways isn't all that different than the Catholic Church that Luther and Calvin Reformed(selling indulgences and keeping the scriptures from the people)...


that said, Jihad is part of Islam. Its in the Koran and its in the latter pages of the Koran. They have a Muslim doctrine of abrogation(cancel and replace), which makes the versus in the Koran at the end of Muhammeds life the relevant passages and replace the earlier 'peaceful' passages. If you don't understand that you will want to call it a 'religion of peace'. A simple look at history, especially the first 400 years starting at the end of Muhammeds life that were Islamic Crusades shows this clearly. The Middle East is muslim today simply because they conquered it via the sword, Jihad. They would've conquered Europe had Charles Martel not stopped them at Battle of Poiters. Then there was the European pushback trying to take the lands back...later the Turks in the 1500's conqured Albania via the sword/Jihad, which is why Albania is the only Muslim nation in Europe currently and why we have blonde hair/blue eyed terrorist plotting Fort Dix.

there are a majority of peacful muslims, however they still want Islam to conquer the world they just arent' engaging in the warfare part. There is loads of deception on the issue as well, as they say one thing publicly and quite another behind our backs to their people.

Quote:"All warfare is based on deception -Sun Tzu

fast fwd to 4:22 or earlier if want to see Arafat(3:54) for case in point.[/youtube]

GGniner Wrote:

aTxTIGER Wrote:i lived in kansas at the time of this election. phelps ran as a dem because he couldnt get on the ballot as a repub. the internal rules of the Kansas Democratic party allowed for easier access to the ballot for phelps. as far as his 14.7 precent.....i know a lot of dems who voted for him as a protest to tom sawyer. im a pretty laid back guy, but i called former speaker sawyer a pandering idiot to his face back in 1998 after a KU Young Democrat meeting. think mitt romney without the money name recognition, charm, charisma, or intelligence....and then add a gimmicky name and you have tom sawyer and taa-daa, fred phelps gets 14.7 percent of the vote.. i voted for neither.

yes, i one time i was a democrat.

according to Wiki(I know), he's a longtime Dem...

Quote:Democratic Party
Phelps has run in various Kansas Democratic Party primaries five times, but has never won. These included races for governor in 1990, 1994, and 1998, receiving about 15% of the vote in 1998.[30] In the 1992 Democratic Party primary for U.S. Senate, Phelps received 31% of the vote [31]

Support for Al Gore
Phelps supported Al Gore in the 1988 Democratic Party primary election.[32] In his 1984 Senate race, Gore opposed a "gay bill of rights" and stated that homosexuality was not something that "society should affirm".[33] Phelps has stated that he supported Gore because of these earlier comments.[34] According to Phelps, members of the Westboro Baptist Church helped run Gore's 1988 campaign in Kansas. Phelps' son, Fred Phelps Jr., hosted a Gore fundraiser, which Al and Tipper Gore attended, at his home in Topeka.[8][34] Fred Phelps, Jr. served as a Gore delegate to the 1988 Democratic National Convention.[34][35] Gore spokesman Dag Vega declined to comment; "We are not dignifying those stories with a response."[36]

what he really is of course, is a life long nutcase. But I don't think he's ever been a republican.

[/quote]

i worded it poorly, but i was saying that he became a democrat mostly because of ballot issues.....however, i wasnt trying to place a time to it. it sounds like i was trying to say that he became a dem in the 90' but that wasnt my intention.

blah Wrote:Quit being a dumb***....

The major difference is that "Christians" in general have called these guys out for being cultists and not representing the faith. I do not see the "Muslims" and Imams doing the same for their lunatic fringe terrorists. By not doing so, in my view, they are supporting the actions of these terrorists. Calling them martyrs would also qualify as support.

Quit being a douchebag (see, we can all call people names, fun!)...

The question is should a religion be held accountable for what its derranged "claimed followers" do in its name?

My position on that is consistent, it is not and in no way should be.

GGNiner, who routinely starts threads launching polemical tirades against Islam for something some gaggle of nutjobs does, apparently doesn't have the same consistancy.

When it comes to christianity, he thinks its possible to differentiate between real Christians and those who just use the name of Christianity to say and do awful things.

The distinction you make is entirely relative. There is no shortage of Muslims that whole heartedly reject the authoritarian ideology of radicals who claim to represent Islam. You don't know many Muslims if you think they view terrorism as Islamic (note -- it doesn't shock me that you don't know many Muslims).

All I ask for from the neo-conservatives on this board is intellectual honesty. Why is that too much to ask?

OUGwave Wrote:The question is should a religion be held accountable for what its derranged "claimed followers" do in its name?

No, if their teaching contradict the actions.

Quote:GGNiner, who routinely starts threads launching polemical tirades against Islam for something some gaggle of nutjobs does, apparently doesn't have the same consistancy.

Gaggle of nutjobs? Even if 1% of Muslims are radical there are over 18 Million radical Muslims. We've never went to a war with anything near that.

http://www.islamicpopulation.com/

Quote:When it comes to christianity, he thinks its possible to differentiate between real Christians and those who just use the name of Christianity to say and do awful things.

Christianity doesn't teach "behead the infidel", blah, blah, and no, don't bring up the Old Testament. We use the New.

Quote:The distinction you make is entirely relative. There is no shortage of Muslims that whole heartedly reject the authoritarian ideology of radicals who claim to represent Islam. You don't know many Muslims if you think they view terrorism as Islamic (note -- it doesn't shock me that you don't know many Muslims).

Really? Where? Seems Fox News had to run a story about a "few" Muslims that rejected fanatical Islam, because it was too politically-incorrect for PBS. You libs seem to want to defend Islam, many times attacking Christianity, more than the "peaceful" Muslims you rave about.

Quote:All I ask for from the neo-conservatives on this board is intellectual honesty. Why is that too much to ask?

Since I'm not a neo-con, I guess this isn't applicable to me. I would, however, like to see some intellectual honesty from the left though.

OUGwave Wrote:

blah Wrote:Quit being a dumb***....

The major difference is that "Christians" in general have called these guys out for being cultists and not representing the faith. I do not see the "Muslims" and Imams doing the same for their lunatic fringe terrorists. By not doing so, in my view, they are supporting the actions of these terrorists. Calling them martyrs would also qualify as support.

Quit being a douchebag (see, we can all call people names, fun!)...

The question is should a religion be held accountable for what its derranged "claimed followers" do in its name?

Yes, when a majority of the followers are considered "deranged" by following the tenets of their religion.

Quote:GGNiner, who routinely starts threads launching polemical tirades against Islam for something some gaggle of nutjobs does, apparently doesn't have the same consistancy.

When it comes to christianity, he thinks its possible to differentiate between real Christians and those who just use the name of Christianity to say and do awful things.

The distinction you make is entirely relative. There is no shortage of Muslims that whole heartedly reject the authoritarian ideology of radicals who claim to represent Islam. You don't know many Muslims if you think they view terrorism as Islamic (note -- it doesn't shock me that you don't know many Muslims).

All I ask for from the neo-conservatives on this board is intellectual honesty. Why is that too much to ask?

I would agree with you, however, GGNiner also makes a good point. i.e. Just because it quacks, it doesn't make it a duck. If I say that I am a black man (I am really white) should I qualify for a minority scholarship? I said I was black.... That doesn't really make any sense does it?

Now you might be saying the same for Muslims, but then I would argue that when the "leaders" of your religion and the "book" that you use for your religion preaches the same hate, they are no longer the "lunatic fringe".....

Quote:Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers. Sura 5:51

The Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (an Imam and the leader of a Muslim state) issued a fatwa for Salman Rushdie based on what he said about Islam.

Quote:'I hate Israel' is the name of a song that became an instant hit when it was released in Egypt in 1999, selling over five million copies. It is sung by Shaaban Abdel Rahim, a middle aged ironer who has given a voice to the anger many Arabs feel towards their neighbour. Shaaban has become a celebrity in Egypt, although many of his songs have been banned from the airways by the Egyptian censors, this act obviously can only heighten his appeal.

Can their be more than 5 million people in a group and then still be considered "fringe"?

Obviously there are many more examples that could be cited.