12 guys? What player is shoved out of that equasion for Roger in the laundry room?

And JD Larue, EVERY program has a Kim Reece (and most of those Kim Reeces don't sleep with minor league baseball players).

Some of them teach their players not to say things like "I'm glad we're going into the Atlantic Sun. I get to miss more class this way" as Tim Smith did, too.

You must not have gotten the point of my THOUSANDS of posts about Tim Smith if you're trying to lecture me on teamwork- and the fact you are trying to identify Smith as "a straw that stirred the drink" instead of "the kudzu that took over the wall" is laughable. You are identifying yourself as a real naive, pompus idiot (I'm just a pompus attention hound)- and it's doubled when you try to revise the history of the 90s teams to those of us who lived through them.

Jerald and Zakee played within the structures of a team. Had their path to the NCAAs been what ANY of those 90s teams had to go through in the So Con Tourney- a virtual home arena against weaker teams- in 2002 the Bucs are in that tourney, too.

Tim Smith did not play within the structure of a team (why do you think I've been on him for so long)- or did you miss his "ignore all the teammates desperation three" against Wake Forest- the behind the back turnover with 17 seconds left against UNC-G in the regular season, the going for two when three was needed against Cincinnati, etc. etc. etc.?

Let me ask you this. Who all got championship rings when the Steelers won the Super Bowl?
Say what you want, use your little cheesy arsed name calling, poor mouth someone who busted her ass for the university,whatever, fact is anyone who has ever played sports competitively (and that doesn't mean UH), knows that it takes everyone involved to get it done. Coaches, assistants, strength coaches, trainers, players, etc... If it didn't, then why waste the money to have them?

VolLover- Please. I am HARDLY "cheesy arsed name calling."

You're the one saying that the mayor is having keggers- making a lame attempt to attack me through UH- not me.

Quite frankly you are out of ammo and are now coming off like a snot nosed brat who cannot refute the facts presented to him.

What I have said about Kim Reece is sadly factual, unlike what is said about me on this board in attempts to cloud the truth when what I say becomes inconvienent or a bit too close to home.

You also are now trying to change the original point you made- which was that the Bucs could not have made the NCAA Tournament in 2003 without Tim Smith.

I say they could have because Smith's contributions, though flashy, had as much of a negative quotient (turnovers- not enough distribution) as it did a positive effect.

Let me just put it to you this way

I say those tourney runs were made through Zak and Jerald's maturity
Yes, that's the opinion Ise got
Cause while I cannot prove it to be the case
YOU can't prove it's not.

My mother's second choice for a first name for me was "Bard."

You now see why.

But I would say that since the team went in the tank without Zak and Jerald, and since they were just missing in the two previous years, there is more credibility in my point than yours.

Finally, Super Bowl ring or no-

Nobody, but NOBODY is looking at Ryan Grove (ETSU grad on the training staff) and saying "WOW! A trainer for the Steelers! You had as much to do with winning that Super Bowl as Hines Ward!"

And you are probably the only person on earth who thinks he might.

How important was the Steelers training staff after Big Ben's wreck?
At any rate, Zak and Jerald had ZERO tourney appearances without Tim, and two with him, by the same token, Tim had two with Zakee and Jerald, and ZERO without them, as the rest of those teams. Now whatever the factors, whether it be coaching (I think we all agree Murry isn't the smartest man alive), a lack of football, good recruiting, piss poor defense, whatever, fact is they won together, and without each other, they didn't.

Actually, not very.

He went to the hospital- not the trainers room.

And for the last time- the arrival of Smith and the NCAAs was coincidence and you having to defend Smith with laundry room employees and team doctors proves my point better than anything else I could say.

Prove it... They couldn't get to the dance with Tiras Wade, who was def. a better all around basketball player.

Actually, for the sake of arguement, they DID make it with Wade.

Granted, he was not playing by the end of the season, but isn't that like saying the 1975 Red Sox didn't make it with Jim Rice?

I'll explain the historical reference. In 1975 the Red Sox won the American League pennant in large part to the contributions of rookies Jim Rice and Fred Lynn.

But Rice was injured late in the year- didn't play in the World Series.

Now, it would seem to me that with your overly romantic notions of the contributions of Roger in the laundry room and team trainers and ticket takers and hot dog salesmen and so forth that you would HOLD WITH GREAT REVERENCE the contributions of a player who was at the top of the scoring list for more than half of the season.

Or do players not have as much impact on the Bucs' won loss record as Pepper the Parrot?

By the way, what role did I play in the Pittsburgh Penguins Eastern Conference semifinalist team of 1996? I sold some tickets for the team that year and want to know if that entitles me to play golf with Mario Lemieux so we can talk about being "teammates" that year.

I wouldn't discount the impact of the mascot. The Braves fired Chief Knockahoma and they went straight downhill bottoming out at last in the NL I believe ;-)

You still didn't prove your point. PROVE that ETSU WAS BETTER without Tim Smith the two years that they had DeChellis, Zakee, Jerald and Co.
You can't. That's like saying the Patriots were better because they had Drew Bledsoe, yet Tom Brady steps in and they won three Super Bowls in four years.
Fact is ETSU didn't have a point guard. Ryan Lawson couldn't do it, Oatman couldn't do it, Wade was too STUPID to do it, but could have had he not been crazy.
And yea, let's say for instance Coach Boyd is doing laundry instead of studying film, or the trainers just don't have the time to work on the basketball teams nagging injuries, leading to one of those major cogs having to miss time. So yea, the 12 guys on the team are the ones who execute the plays, but don't think for a second that the ENTIRE STAFF didn't contribute. If they're in the team photo, they did something for the championships, otherwise they would be jock sniffers who boast about being ticket salesman and American Legion baseball beat writers.

Only a true idiot like yourself would ask anyone to PROVE a subjective arguement.

The sad thing is you will never realize just what a moron you did make yourself out to be by asking me to PROVE a subjective arguement.

Besides, my point was not that the Bucs weren't better in 2003.

There you go changing the arguement again.

My point, for the millionth time, was there improvement had more to do with the continued maturity of Wadood and Fields - than that of a me-first point guard with horrible fundamentals.

I think that's obvious.

Oh, heck, I'll humor you. I say the Bucs would have beaten Wake Forest without Tim Smith.

PROVE they wouldn't have!

Or I'll even give it to you this way. The Pittsburgh Pirates won last won the World Series in 1979.

It was all about bat boys Milt Graff and Steve Wycoff, of course (and don't ask me how I know who the bat boys of the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates were)!

Imagine if Willie Stargell and Dave Parker had to get their own equipment ready! Imagine if Kent Tekulve got all muscle bound by carrying his own bag! Can you imagine if Chuck Tanner had to worry about laundering the uniforms instead of making out the lineup card?

But above all, let us not forget the contributions of Gary Hargis. Surely you remember him! Pinch ran for Tim Foli in the 13th inning of the Bucs next-to-last game in the '79 regular season. Went from first to second.

It was his only major league appearance.

Now, OBVIOUSLY the Pittsburgh Pirates COULD NOT have won the World Series in 1979 without Hargis. I mean, they finished in second three straight years before finally bursting through with Hargis!

And Hargis has never played in a major league game again!

OH! THE CURSE OF HARGIS! WHY DIDN'T CHUCK TANNER KEEP HIM ON THE TEAM IN 1980 WHEN HE WAS ON THE MAJOR LEAGUE ROSTER ALL WINTER! IF WE HAD ONLY KNOWN! WOE TO US PIRATES FANS!

And fellas, forgive my indulgence in the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates; they are my favorite sports team of all time and always will be.

But let's just clobber this guy because, well, I'm a shallow little man trying to pass time before the Pitt Panthers game comes on.

VolLover- it is obvious the Buccanneers were better because of the hiring of David Mullins.

I mean, the Bucs NEVER made the NCAAs under Todd Stansbury or Frank Pergolizzi! And if you're going to romanticize the contributions of laundry room employees, certainly you have to give credit to the Athletic Director- who oversees everything.

It wasn't until DAVID MULLINS became the AD that the Bucs had the guidance and leadership needed to make not one, but TWO appearances in the NCAAs!!!!!!

It's EVERYONE ON THE TEAM! It's EVERYONE from Roger in the laundry room to the five players on the court to the ATHLETIC DIRECTOR OVERSEEING IT ALL!!!!!

PROVE to me that ETSU basketball was better without David Mullins in 2001-02 than it was WITH HIM in 2003!

Pitt I know you are responding to Lovers comments about trainers and whatever. Stupid stuff.

Smith was a big contributor to ETSU going to the NCAA with Fields and Wadood. You can't compare him to a bat boy or pinch runner. Smith scored, he drew defenses to him, he kept defenses from sagging on Fields and Wadood, he kept the defense spaced out and gave Wadood and Fields better lanes to the basket and chances to go get offensive rebounds etc Oatman couldn't do that, he had 0 offense they could double team the post without worry. Also Wake guards were to big and physical for Oatman as well as faster. They would have hounded him to death and who would he have guarded? They were bigger and stronger then Smith but couldn't catch him. ETSU had no half court offense under DeChellis before Smith are after Smith came, having a traditional style PG like Oatman would do them little good when they didn't have many set plays and sucked running those few.Wadood and Fields need to get up and down the court not get stuck in a half court game, Smith arrival gave them that. I am not a fan of Smiths instead of growing up his last 2 years here and becoming a leader the only thing that grew was his ego. But he was a vital COG in the ETSU NCAA teams with Fields and Wadood.

R

Smith never matured after Zakee and Jerald graduated, for what reason who knows?
And who hired DeChellis? Who kept him there through those years of losing?
Whatever dude. You asked me to prove a subjective argument, I don't have to prove anything, there's two pieces of hardware in the basketball office and two banners in the on campus airplane hanger we play in that proves any argument about those teams.
I guess if I hadn't had family that used to coach, and a friend of mine that has thought about coaching in college and very well could, I would agree with you. But for a team, program, department, whatever to be successful it takes a HELL of a support system, and alot of money, atleast to be consistenly successful. I mean hell, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. ETSU found a nut, built a team around him, then booted the guy.

Ed DeChellis was booted?

That's interesting. Every newspaper article seems to state he left on his own accord.

I guess the Big 10 isn't the Conference the Southern Conference and Atlantic Sun are. That certainly is a step down.

And it must be so! You have a former wannabe college coach in the family!

Family credentials, hmmmm. Well, my father has a PhD from Brown and my mom has one from Bryn Mawr.

So, obviously, I'm the smartest guy on the board! You shouldn't try to debate me because, dude, I just gots the breeding and you don't.

That's what your arguement has fallen to. It has simply been taken apart, bit by bit, piece by piece, and now the entire board is left wondering . . .

"It's nice that VolLover's kinfolk was kind to the help. But to try to hold the contributions of the guy who picks up the litter between the seats at Memorial Center over that of the players is absurd!"

Which is what you're doing when you romanticize the contributions of "Roger in the laundry room" (who is that guy, anyway?) over Tirus Wade.

You know, when VolLover goes on to the point where ROD SHAW has to step in and defend Tim Smith, then you know how badly VolLover got beat.

I mean this was Larry Holmes waving the ref over to stop the fight against Marvis Fraizer!

But to respond about Smith- I'd like to agree with you. I realize that Smith was flashy and all.

But to me, he was the worst player I've ever seen. He was the epitome of the thugball style of player from the playground that has taken over basketball and has made the sport unwatchable for me, save for ETSU.

A point guard who winds up leading his school in scoring is like a quarterback leading his team in rushing. It's just not his job. It takes away from the rest of the team.

For instance, you say that Smith opened up lanes for the post players with his flashy style.

Then you say Oatman, Lawson, Huffstedter (am I spelling that right?), etc. would have been double teamed.

What if they beat those double teams with a crisp pass or with a set play? And I know you think they wouldn't have but I don't think it is at all beyond the realm of possibility.

Wouldn't that have opened up the same spaces for the post players? Perhaps even Natalie Mainesesque WIDE OPEN SPACES?

In fact, since against Wake Forest Fields' contributions offensively were minimal, it seems to me a traditional point guard would have opened up MORE LANES for Fields. Certainly none were open for him against Wake!

The problem with the NCAA Tournament is that in the smaller conferences they only accept the conference tourney winner. Therefore, we literally forget about every regular season and conference tournament game (witness Lover romanticizing ancillary figures in the athletic program, yet forgetting about Tirus Wade) and only remember the tournament games.

And, as an ETSU fan, we say "Isn't it so nice we played with the big boys?"

Therefore, we forget that ETSU had some pretty good teams the two years before they made the tourney. We romanticize a close loss to Wake Forest on a neutral court, but forget about a one-point, overtime loss against C of C in Charleston.

And as a result, we look at the new player and say "He's the reason we went this far!" even when the team goes into the toilet when the two post players leave.

Looking at the entire picture I just can't buy it, especially when Tim Smith had the worst turnover-assist ratio in college basketball during that season.

One of the main reasons Fields didn't do anything against Wake is that it is hard to score setting on the bench next to the coach in foul trouble.

Now lets look at the season prior to Smith arriving.

Fields and Wadood as freshman, team went 18-10, Fields was a backup, Wadood hardly played at all. Meeks and Johnson were the main men inside with DeCoster at the point and Childeress carrying the scoring load.

Soph. Fields and Wadood the men inside now, but a ton of scorers on that team Lawson on the perimeter and Childeress and Wade able to shoot from outside or drive. No real PG but Meco lead the team with 75A and 70 TO, Lawson had 71 and 71. This was just free flowing offense.
This team had alot of fire power and could have made it, if DeCoster stays I think this would have been break though year.

Everybody loves Oatman and make him out to be better then he was because he was the total opposite of Smith. People who don't like Smith would be drawn to Oatman for that reason. However I saw Oatman on the court many times. He was not a Div 1 level talent, nice kid, scrappy whatever you want to say but Not a D1 level player. He had his chances many times but the skill just wasn't there to get him on the court more.
You had to pick spots where you could use him. Even the "Greatest Coach" since Brooks must have had some doubts because no matter how much lip service he gave to Oatman about needing to get him more playing time etc, IT NEVER happened, DeChellis just didn't play him much.
Bartow was the same way. Oatman was not the answer for ETSU at PG.
I know I saw Oatman play a lot more then you Pitt so I don't see how you can judge his talent.
So Pitt you want ot bring up the Georgia Southern game where ETSU was winning then Oatman got hurt and ETSU ended up blowing the game late and quoting DeChellis as saying his injury was what cost ETSU the game?
Of course if you do I will again point out Oatman never played a minute in that game and you made the whole thing up.

R

Two trips to the NCAA's, one with a less than stellar coach. The teams with Childress should have made it, but for whatever the reason couldn't find ways to win, that was the difference in the two years that they got there.