(02-08-2012 01:13 PM)BucNut22 Wrote:  

(02-08-2012 08:48 AM)slappywhite Wrote:  

(02-08-2012 12:49 AM)BucNut22 Wrote:  

(02-07-2012 05:32 PM)LetsgoBucs Wrote:  Whatever the context, he's won enough conference championships to weather a few bad seasons. That's not an endorsement of him as a coach, but more of a recognition of the way these things work.

Shouldn't there be more people questioning Karen Kemp than Bartow to be fair? She was barely mediocre for over a decade and had a hot streak that began and ended when Sierra Evans and Taronda Wiles got to and left campus. Her body of work doesn't say much positive about her abilities as a coach.

Coach Kemp's recent record has CERTAINLY been helped by the drop to the A-Sun (a point many have raised before) BUT unlike the men's team and program, the Lady Bucs have actually IMPROVED. Coach Kemp recruited a McDonald All-American and her recruiting has steadily picked up. Coach Kemp and Lady Bucs have actually hosted named opponents, and spiked their attendance. If you compare the relative percentage increase in attendance for the Vandy and LSU games vs. the high water attendances for the Men's team (Belmont twice ?), the Lady Bucs CRUSH the Bucs.

Going from 30 people to 3000

vs.

Going from 3,000 people to 5,100 (believe we put in 5,100 vs Belmont one year)

all good points. (though you may have the mens number reversed above).

kemp is untouchable...for reasons that have nothing to do with coaching accomplishments or lack thereof. as 22 stated, less this year, she wins more than she loses since coming to the asun, goes to the post season, brings in big name opponnets and recruits pretty decent. with fgcu in the mix now, they may not make the post season much, but at the end of the day....its womens bball. it really does not matter.

I was comparing both programs high water marks for attendance. The percent increase for the women is 9900%, for the men 70%. The Men's team would have to put 30,000 people in the stands to equal the % increase the women have achieved twice.

Coach Kemp>>>>>> MuBar

sad but true...

Bartow won't be fired. He's signed until 2015, and ETSU can't afford to pay a coach to do nothing for any real length of time, let alone three years.

I think he's a good coach. The problem is that he doesn't have the talent that he needs to run the stuff he wants to, so he ends up with the basketball equivalent of what the Nashville Predators put out most seasons: outstanding defense and athleticism, but no offensive skill to speak of. Our best ball handler is Sollazzo, and he's a converted forward, I think that says a lot about the kind of players Murry can bring in.

You're bound to have a bad season at this level every once in a while. If he does it consistently, he'll get fired, but I don't think he will. He's not Rick Byrd, but he's not Derek Waugh, either. I'm not sure how many upgrades you could find on Bartow with our current facilities.

(02-08-2012 06:12 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  Bartow won't be fired. He's signed until 2015, and ETSU can't afford to pay a coach to do nothing for any real length of time, let alone three years.

I think he's a good coach. The problem is that he doesn't have the talent that he needs to run the stuff he wants to, so he ends up with the basketball equivalent of what the Nashville Predators put out most seasons: outstanding defense and athleticism, but no offensive skill to speak of. Our best ball handler is Sollazzo, and he's a converted forward, I think that says a lot about the kind of players Murry can bring in.

You're bound to have a bad season at this level every once in a while. If he does it consistently, he'll get fired, but I don't think he will. He's not Rick Byrd, but he's not Derek Waugh, either. I'm not sure how many upgrades you could find on Bartow with our current facilities.

I don't understand this post at all, have you watched ETSU play the last few years? That outstanding defense has been getting bombed from outside for years and yeah players like Tiggs and Pigram had no offense at all, the bums. He recruits the players so that is pretty dumb of him to bring him players that don't fit his system, if he had a system, which he doesn't. As for Adam being a converted forward, how in the world do you get that? He was a point guard in high school, he was recruited to play the point at ETSU and he has been playing the point? When was he converted from a forward? Jr High?? Seriously,, you sure you have been watching ETSU basketball games?

I would argue that Tiggs was an anomaly because of his age and background: he was 23 when he got here, which is already older than many seniors, and he probably got overlooked because he had gone into the workforce and gotten his education later. I would further argue that, without Tiggs, that team wouldn't be a whole lot better than the one that went to the CIT last year.

I would also point out that, since the 08-09 season (including this season so far), the Bucs have conceded an average of 68.4 points per game, even with three point bonanzas like both Kentucky games and the C of C game in Charleston. I would hazard a guess that that is, at the very least, in the upper half of D-I programs over that span, and enough to be competitive in and win quite a few games.

Yeah Tiggs was an anomaly and Pigram was a 2000 point scorer and Smith was a 1000 point score.
I would agrue that if you took one of the best players off ANY team they wouldn't be as good. Duh.


A whole lot more teams then just Kentucky and CoC have lit us up from 3, Belmont,, Belmont anyone? and others.

Giving up 68.4 points per game this year would rank ETSU tied for 213th in scoring defense pretty sure there aren't 426 Div I teams (roughly 100 less then that) so nope no where close to Top Half.
http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men...eam/146/p5
This year ETSU is giving up 66 points a game a 145th on the list linked above.(top half, yay!!)
Again our opponents are shooting lights out from 3pt range, we are 286th in 3pt defense on the list linked above

Yes we are ranking high in steals but we also turn the ball over alot, ranked 238th on the list linked above

So okay I see your point ETSU is a defensive juggernaut.

(02-08-2012 06:12 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  Bartow won't be fired. He's signed until 2015, and ETSU can't afford to pay a coach to do nothing for any real length of time, let alone three years.

I think he's a good coach. The problem is that he doesn't have the talent that he needs to run the stuff he wants to, so he ends up with the basketball equivalent of what the Nashville Predators put out most seasons: outstanding defense and athleticism, but no offensive skill to speak of. Our best ball handler is Sollazzo, and he's a converted forward, I think that says a lot about the kind of players Murry can bring in.

You're bound to have a bad season at this level every once in a while. If he does it consistently, he'll get fired, but I don't think he will. He's not Rick Byrd, but he's not Derek Waugh, either. I'm not sure how many upgrades you could find on Bartow with our current facilities.

I agree. He's a good coach having (so far) a poor season. Talent may be an issue, and that is his recruiting, and he is going through what has to be a difficult personal time with the death of his father. He's had a good string here over time, and I say give the guy a little slack. Bet Tennessee wishes they hadn't pulled the plug on Fulmer when they did.

(02-08-2012 06:12 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  I think he's a good coach. The problem is that he doesn't have the talent that he needs to run the stuff he wants to, so he ends up with the basketball equivalent of what the Nashville Predators put out most seasons: outstanding defense and athleticism, but no offensive skill to speak of.

To further show how silly this is. See today's Johnson City Press. As mentioned in another thread. Last couple of season yes they have stuggled but that has NOT been the norm since Bartow has been here.
Defense has always been the much bigger problem then offense. 186 3 pointers given up this year, Like I said alot more teams then just Kentucky and CoC have lit us up.

Quote:The offensive struggles have become a trend, considering the Bucs averaged less than 70 points per game each of the last two seasons. Only one of the previous nine teams averaged less than 76, and three were above 81.

The Bucs are currently shooting 43.9 percent from the field, which would be the second-worst mark in the last 12 years. As for 3-pointers, their 30.4 percent clip would match the 1993-94 team for the lowest output since the arc became universal in 1986. The Bucs have just 98 threes for the season, an average of 4.2 per game, which puts them at No. 320 nationally.

...They have, however, surrendered 186 3-pointers, almost twice as many as they’ve scored, and opponents are shooting 35.9 percent from behind the arc.

Full article: http://www.johnsoncitypress.com/Sports/a...p?id=98141

The Bucs have regressed in so many areas over the yearsduring the Bartow era.

Scoring has declined.

2003-04- 79.3ppg
2004-05 76.8ppg
2005-06- 81.6ppg
2006-07- 73.1ppg
2007-08- 78.6ppg
2008-09- 78.1ppg
2009-10- 69.3ppg
2010-11- 69.9ppg
2011-12- 68.2ppg

Number of conference losses have steadily increased.

2003-04- 15-1
2004-05- 4-12
2005-06- 12-8
2006-07- 16-2
2007-08- 11-5
2008-09- 14-6
2009-10- 13-7
2010-11- 16-4
2011-12- 6-6 (and dropping)

Overall athleticism has steadily declined.

Overall skill level has steadily declined.

Margin of defeat in the NCAA tournament has steadily increased.

2003-04- Loss by 3
2008-09- Loss by 10
2009-10- Loss by 29

Attendance and interest has steadily declined.


We now find ourselves a middle of the pack team in the A-Sun, and guess what? It is NOT the first time despite the nonsense that has been spewed.

But yeah, you're right........MuBar is a REAL good coach

(02-08-2012 01:13 PM)BucNut22 Wrote:  

(02-08-2012 08:48 AM)slappywhite Wrote:  

(02-08-2012 12:49 AM)BucNut22 Wrote:  

(02-07-2012 05:32 PM)LetsgoBucs Wrote:  Whatever the context, he's won enough conference championships to weather a few bad seasons. That's not an endorsement of him as a coach, but more of a recognition of the way these things work.

Shouldn't there be more people questioning Karen Kemp than Bartow to be fair? She was barely mediocre for over a decade and had a hot streak that began and ended when Sierra Evans and Taronda Wiles got to and left campus. Her body of work doesn't say much positive about her abilities as a coach.

Coach Kemp's recent record has CERTAINLY been helped by the drop to the A-Sun (a point many have raised before) BUT unlike the men's team and program, the Lady Bucs have actually IMPROVED. Coach Kemp recruited a McDonald All-American and her recruiting has steadily picked up. Coach Kemp and Lady Bucs have actually hosted named opponents, and spiked their attendance. If you compare the relative percentage increase in attendance for the Vandy and LSU games vs. the high water attendances for the Men's team (Belmont twice ?), the Lady Bucs CRUSH the Bucs.

Going from 30 people to 3000

vs.

Going from 3,000 people to 5,100 (believe we put in 5,100 vs Belmont one year)

all good points. (though you may have the mens number reversed above).

kemp is untouchable...for reasons that have nothing to do with coaching accomplishments or lack thereof. as 22 stated, less this year, she wins more than she loses since coming to the asun, goes to the post season, brings in big name opponnets and recruits pretty decent. with fgcu in the mix now, they may not make the post season much, but at the end of the day....its womens bball. it really does not matter.

I was comparing both programs high water marks for attendance. The percent increase for the women is 9900%, for the men 70%. The Men's team would have to put 30,000 people in the stands to equal the % increase the women have achieved twice.

Coach Kemp>>>>>> MuBar

I really don't understand the unquestioned support for Kemp. She gets the credit for the success in the ASun. However, that success spans a 4 year period that coincides with two players, well three really when you add Latisha Belcher. That speaks well to recruiting, but it's my understanding her part in recruiting is small. She also gets all the responsibility for the prior decade before her successful run, of mediocrity. Right now the Lady Bucs sit at 8th place in the ASun. Eighth. Everyone is angry, and justifiably so, about a men's team that is in sixth place. The men's side is stronger than the women's side. Add to that Kemp's revolving door of players. She gets rid of at least a couple of players a year. And how many people have watched her teams play? There is a lack of discipline and sound coaching. Now that FGCU is eligible I don't see any future championships for the Lady Bucs in the ASun. But, that's just my opinion.

(02-10-2012 02:43 PM)LetsgoBucs Wrote:  

(02-08-2012 01:13 PM)BucNut22 Wrote:  

(02-08-2012 08:48 AM)slappywhite Wrote:  

(02-08-2012 12:49 AM)BucNut22 Wrote:  

(02-07-2012 05:32 PM)LetsgoBucs Wrote:  Whatever the context, he's won enough conference championships to weather a few bad seasons. That's not an endorsement of him as a coach, but more of a recognition of the way these things work.

Shouldn't there be more people questioning Karen Kemp than Bartow to be fair? She was barely mediocre for over a decade and had a hot streak that began and ended when Sierra Evans and Taronda Wiles got to and left campus. Her body of work doesn't say much positive about her abilities as a coach.

Coach Kemp's recent record has CERTAINLY been helped by the drop to the A-Sun (a point many have raised before) BUT unlike the men's team and program, the Lady Bucs have actually IMPROVED. Coach Kemp recruited a McDonald All-American and her recruiting has steadily picked up. Coach Kemp and Lady Bucs have actually hosted named opponents, and spiked their attendance. If you compare the relative percentage increase in attendance for the Vandy and LSU games vs. the high water attendances for the Men's team (Belmont twice ?), the Lady Bucs CRUSH the Bucs.

Going from 30 people to 3000

vs.

Going from 3,000 people to 5,100 (believe we put in 5,100 vs Belmont one year)

all good points. (though you may have the mens number reversed above).

kemp is untouchable...for reasons that have nothing to do with coaching accomplishments or lack thereof. as 22 stated, less this year, she wins more than she loses since coming to the asun, goes to the post season, brings in big name opponnets and recruits pretty decent. with fgcu in the mix now, they may not make the post season much, but at the end of the day....its womens bball. it really does not matter.

I was comparing both programs high water marks for attendance. The percent increase for the women is 9900%, for the men 70%. The Men's team would have to put 30,000 people in the stands to equal the % increase the women have achieved twice.

Coach Kemp>>>>>> MuBar

I really don't understand the unquestioned support for Kemp. She gets the credit for the success in the ASun. However, that success spans a 4 year period that coincides with two players, well three really when you add Latisha Belcher. That speaks well to recruiting, but it's my understanding her part in recruiting is small. She also gets all the responsibility for the prior decade before her successful run, of mediocrity. Right now the Lady Bucs sit at 8th place in the ASun. Eighth. Everyone is angry, and justifiably so, about a men's team that is in sixth place. The men's side is stronger than the women's side. Add to that Kemp's revolving door of players. She gets rid of at least a couple of players a year. And how many people have watched her teams play? There is a lack of discipline and sound coaching. Now that FGCU is eligible I don't see any future championships for the Lady Bucs in the ASun. But, that's just my opinion.

Let me get the this straight, I`m suppose to knock Coach Kemp for bringing in good players then winning with them?

And as I understand it Coach Kemp has changed out her assistants several times yet I`m to believe that someone else is responsible for her recruiting success? And since Evans left her teams have bit badly bitten by the injury bug, including the McDonald's All-American she recruited.

I smell a hater.

When the Men's program signs a McDonald's All-American and increases their attendance numbers anywhere near 9,900% for ANY game, I`ll give them the same credit.

Quote:When the Men's program signs a McDonald's All-American and increases their attendance numbers anywhere near 9,900% for ANY game, I`ll give them the same credit.

By no means do I wish to challenge Kemp's success. However, I want to make a point about your way of viewing the attendance improvement. Yes, that's an astounding percentage increase for the women's team, but with a starting point so low you can really only go up (unless you cut the sport, but that's nothing we'd ever do at ETSU, now is it?). I think it's more appropriate to look at the increase proportionately to men's increase, in which case you see roughly a 3:2 ratio. Again, this should be considered in light of the starting point - 30 for the women, 3000 for the men. A near 10,000% increase is preposterous from the starting number.

I stick my neck out and say the attendance increases are, in light of my considerations, fairly even on a qualitative level. Reviving a program is a great achievement, but how quickly can 3000 go to 5000 for the women's team?

The recruiting aspect of the discussion is obviously in favor of Kemp.

(02-10-2012 10:12 PM)shampoo Wrote:  

Quote:When the Men's program signs a McDonald's All-American and increases their attendance numbers anywhere near 9,900% for ANY game, I`ll give them the same credit.

By no means do I wish to challenge Kemp's success. However, I want to make a point about your way of viewing the attendance improvement. Yes, that's an astounding percentage increase for the women's team, but with a starting point so low you can really only go up (unless you cut the sport, but that's nothing we'd ever do at ETSU, now is it?). I think it's more appropriate to look at the increase proportionately to men's increase, in which case you see roughly a 3:2 ratio. Again, this should be considered in light of the starting point - 30 for the women, 3000 for the men. A near 10,000% increase is preposterous from the starting number.

I stick my neck out and say the attendance increases are, in light of my considerations, fairly even on a qualitative level. Reviving a program is a great achievement, but how quickly can 3000 go to 5000 for the women's team?

The recruiting aspect of the discussion is obviously in favor of Kemp.

Except the men's attendance has steadily decreased. The high water mark for the men's team continues to go down year to year, as does the average attendance. I haven't seen the numbers for the Lady Bucs but I`m betting that's not the case. The Lady Bucs draw what women's basketball usually draws. You have to compare in relative terms.

At the going rate, the Lady Bucs are closer to being able to put 5,000 people in the stands than the Bucs are going forward. The Lady Bucs have brought in two opponents who have moved the dial, the Bucs sure as hell haven't.

For sure, BOTH programs are having tough seasons this year. But since joining the ASUN, Kemp has done more for her program than Bartow has done for his. I don't see how it can be argued otherwise. The LSU game was the best crowd I've seen all year for either sport and that shouldnt happen at this school.

Dunno about the Bruce Pearl part of the rumor... but it appears another orange-clad Bruce -- Bruce Weber from Illinois might be available to plug into the equation.

This may have been raised before, but do you all think that Bartow could/would be considered as Mullins replacement?

I say if they fire Bartow we have a party at Knight's and make banners etc.
A nice rousing redition of Sha na na na.. Hey Hey.. Good Bye.. Shake our keys
at the Dome, all the stuff we used to do before the Spirit Nazi's put the clamps down.

(02-14-2012 08:28 PM)Bucfaithful Wrote:  This may have been raised before, but do you all think that Bartow could/would be considered as Mullins replacement?

And coach also (like Robinson did) or just be the AD? Interesting thoughts though I never thought about those scenarios.

I don't understand how bartow is a more hated figure than Mullins. Yeah bartow is a bad coach but he doesn't strike me as a bad guy. I believe he wants to win more than anything...he just doesn't have the first damn clue how. Mullins actively sought the decline of etsu sports and its fan base. No comparison. The day he is gone would be the day to party at knights.

Exactly, Gold.

I am on record in saying I don't think any coach at ETSU should lose their job as long as Mullins is in charge. They are handicapped by the incompetence of this administration.

I do have a problem with how Bartow treats the press, for instance not letting his players communicate after this loss. That stuff backfires on you (or at least it does if the media covering the team has any self respect whatsoever) and shows a lack of understanding and control by the coach.

But here's the deal. Mullins has hired two coaches that I can remember, Bartow and Brad Irwin, who is the coach of the softball team.

I'll let you decide about Bartow, but it should be mentioned the coach Mullins hired to take over a team with everyone returning from an impressive mid-major NCAA berth was a guy who'd been out of work for a year.

Irwin is now 0-4 this year after a 16-32 year last year despite having some of the best softball facilities around to lure recruits to.

I think Mullins once hired an assistant coach at Science Hill to coach volleyball.

Bartow is at least serviceable. He can lead a team to the NCAAs.

Mullins is a total incompetent who would not have been tolerated and would have been run off by the fan base anywhere else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M

^^^^^^^^