(03-21-2019 10:31 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-21-2019 10:17 AM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-21-2019 09:55 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  In fact - has a single reporter writing about this situation actually added any value in terms of offering new information beyond what the school/players have released or tweeted? Would be nice if someone actually reported on what's actually going on below the surface here rather than lazily re-writing press releases.

Nope. An alum friend of mine who has worked in sports journalism pointed out that even the tweet about who's interested in Pierce has no source. It could just be Justin sending a list of programs that liked his transfer tweet. There's no confirmation for anything or analysis of anything, including Shaver's firing. All that we've seen in those articles is the stats that support however that writer is feeling. Rocco's done a deeper dive into whether it's justified than any journalist to this point.

Your alum friend needs to look at tweets from 3/15 and 3/16:

eff Borzello
@jeffborzello
·
Mar 15
William & Mary forward Justin Pierce tells ESPN he will be graduating and transferring for his final season.

Two-time all-CAA performer. Averaged 14.9 points, 8.9 rebounds and 4.1 assists this season.

ff Borzello
@jeffborzello
·
Mar 16
Schools to reach out to William & Mary grad transfer Justin Pierce:

Texas, Florida, Michigan, Zags, Arizona, Ohio St, Wiscy, Notre Dame, USC, Nevada, NC State, VTech, Purdue, KState, TCU, Stanford, Xavier, Ole Miss, Creighton, Butler, Illinois, Utah, GTech, DePaul, N’Western, BC

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeffborzello?....167098%2F

I admit it, I clicked through this time.

He was actually specifically referencing those tweets. The first came from Pierce, the second has no source. We're left to assume that either this reporter confirmed all of these communications with each school or he tweeted something that was sent to him. There's no detail as to what "reach out" means. My friend said he thought it was unlikely that a reporter would call each of those schools to confirm for a player transferring from a small mid-major.

I'm not suggesting that Pierce isn't a hot commodity or that he won't end up at a P5 school. He was rated the top pro prospect in the CAA preseason. But the tweet about who has reached out might not have anything behind it.

If this first tweet is based on what Pierce “tells ESPN”, isn’t the legitimate assumption (that word) that the second tweet is based on a second “conversation”.

I first saw the tweet on the Purdue Rivals web site, posted by one of their writers, who is an excellent journalist.

(03-21-2019 10:27 AM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  My theory, made of whole cloth, is that Huge looked at Coach Shaver as a coach that was losing his team and that there wasn't going to be a next year with the current team. This wasn't in the press release because it reflects poorly on Shaver for getting his next job and the players who would come off as entitled/spoiled/etc. Again, I have nothing to back this up aside from my own feelings.

So if you're the AD and you're looking at the men's basketball team, you see some potential instability because Pierce and Milon are graduating, which opens up the possibility that they could transfer. Plus you know Knight has NBA ambitions and "upside" helps his draft stock more than experience. If things go sideways, your three key cogs are down to zero in a hurry. At this point, if you're trying to hold the team together, how does firing the coach make sense?

All you have done is added an additional incentive for players to transfer. Now, every player on the team has to consider that he will be playing for a new coaching staff next fall, REGARDLESS of whether he transfers or not. I know I would rather pick my new coach than have my new coach appointed above me.

And why should Huge be desperate to win next year? She doesn't care that this is our "best" shot since five years ago. She hasn't even been here five years. "Our best chance in a while" means chickenfeed to her. And it's not like this is the dream team--look at Rocco's stats on returning win shares. We would probably be getting a solid team next year, barring transfers and injuries, not a runaway favorite. There's no reason to put all your chips on the 2020 Moonshot Team if you're a new AD anticipating many future years building up the program. You MIGHT get a better coach, because the old coach MIGHT be blowing one opportunity with a team that MIGHT be good? It's a triple-bank-shot I would attempt in the pool hall after a few beers, not something I would try as a sober and well-salaried university leader.

So if I'm Huge, and I'm anticipating a player-led shakeup of the men's hoops team, I sit back and wait. If Shaver holds the team together and they run the table next season, it's a win for me. If Shaver holds the team together and they disappoint next season, it's also a win for me because now I have a tailor-made justification for releasing him. If Shaver doesn't hold the team together, and players begin transferring, it's also a win for me because, again, I now have my justification for canning Shaver and getting my own guy in the door. Win-win-win, all by doing nothing.

Instead, she chose to fire the coach preemptively, taking all the fan/alumni/media unrest and blowback on her own head. I think what Huge is "saying" by her actions is "2020 be darned, I'm going to reboot the basketball program and I'm going to start right away." So if we win six games or twenty-six games next year, she owns it. I don't think it was the right decision but it was a brave decision, I'll give her that.

Justin has been followed by and followed back:
Northwestern, Ohio State, Illinois, Butler, Belmont, UConn, Miami (ACC), NCState, Gonzaga, Xavier, TCU, K-State, and I could go on. Enough said.

(03-21-2019 11:13 AM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  So if I'm Huge, and I'm anticipating a player-led shakeup of the men's hoops team, I sit back and wait. If Shaver holds the team together and they run the table next season, it's a win for me. If Shaver holds the team together and they disappoint next season, it's also a win for me because now I have a tailor-made justification for releasing him. If Shaver doesn't hold the team together, and players begin transferring, it's also a win for me because, again, I now have my justification for canning Shaver and getting my own guy in the door. Win-win-win, all by doing nothing.

So I was initially in the camp that thought firing Tony was a good decision. This is the best point I've read condemning that decision here so far. Generally, I like Huge and I cannot understand how she misread the room so badly on this firing. Either she totally mis-estimated the loyalty of the players to the coach and program or she just doesn't care. I still believe it's the former.

(03-21-2019 11:55 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(03-21-2019 11:13 AM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  So if I'm Huge, and I'm anticipating a player-led shakeup of the men's hoops team, I sit back and wait. If Shaver holds the team together and they run the table next season, it's a win for me. If Shaver holds the team together and they disappoint next season, it's also a win for me because now I have a tailor-made justification for releasing him. If Shaver doesn't hold the team together, and players begin transferring, it's also a win for me because, again, I now have my justification for canning Shaver and getting my own guy in the door. Win-win-win, all by doing nothing.

So I was initially in the camp that thought firing Tony was a good decision. This is the best point I've read condemning that decision here so far. Generally, I like Huge and I cannot understand how she misread the room so badly on this firing. Either she totally mis-estimated the loyalty of the players to the coach and program or she just doesn't care. I still believe it's the former.

A Quest Called Tribe for moderator! Kudos to zablenoise, who I've always appreciated, for keeping an opened mind.

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(03-21-2019 11:55 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(03-21-2019 11:13 AM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  So if I'm Huge, and I'm anticipating a player-led shakeup of the men's hoops team, I sit back and wait. If Shaver holds the team together and they run the table next season, it's a win for me. If Shaver holds the team together and they disappoint next season, it's also a win for me because now I have a tailor-made justification for releasing him. If Shaver doesn't hold the team together, and players begin transferring, it's also a win for me because, again, I now have my justification for canning Shaver and getting my own guy in the door. Win-win-win, all by doing nothing.

So I was initially in the camp that thought firing Tony was a good decision. This is the best point I've read condemning that decision here so far. Generally, I like Huge and I cannot understand how she misread the room so badly on this firing. Either she totally mis-estimated the loyalty of the players to the coach and program or she just doesn't care. I still believe it's the former.

what if it's the best chance to win, but one piece could improve the chances? And if you are in charge and you think that one piece is the coach, what do you do?

(03-21-2019 12:56 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  what if it's the best chance to win, but one piece could improve the chances? And if you are in charge and you think that one piece is the coach, what do you do?

I fire the coach. But I'd hope that our AD has enough of a read on the program to know the consequences of that action. Either she does and doesn't care/thinks it was worth it or she doesn't and completely misjudged this one.

This is all a little speculative too. Some of these players could still stay or some could have been gone anyway.

(03-21-2019 12:56 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  

(03-21-2019 11:55 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(03-21-2019 11:13 AM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  So if I'm Huge, and I'm anticipating a player-led shakeup of the men's hoops team, I sit back and wait. If Shaver holds the team together and they run the table next season, it's a win for me. If Shaver holds the team together and they disappoint next season, it's also a win for me because now I have a tailor-made justification for releasing him. If Shaver doesn't hold the team together, and players begin transferring, it's also a win for me because, again, I now have my justification for canning Shaver and getting my own guy in the door. Win-win-win, all by doing nothing.

So I was initially in the camp that thought firing Tony was a good decision. This is the best point I've read condemning that decision here so far. Generally, I like Huge and I cannot understand how she misread the room so badly on this firing. Either she totally mis-estimated the loyalty of the players to the coach and program or she just doesn't care. I still believe it's the former.

what if it's the best chance to win, but one piece could improve the chances? And if you are in charge and you think that one piece is the coach, what do you do?

To continue with your game piece analogy: while reaching across the chess board to replace the king (queen?, being the most powerful piece), Huge accidentally knocked the Rook and two Bishops completely off the board (and the Knight is teetering precariously on the edge).

(03-20-2019 09:22 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(03-20-2019 09:12 PM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-20-2019 09:01 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(03-20-2019 08:52 PM)Naptown Tribe Wrote:  So do we think everyone is truly gone or just keeping all options open until a new coach is hired?

It is absolutely crazy to think where we were a month ago with everyone except for Paul coming back and now could be hardly anyone ... how is Huge gonna salvage this?

So beyond frustrating


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I don't know. I think the longer it goes, the more likely. I also think the right hire could bring most back to the fold. I'm not sure that we will get the right hire though. Transfers are par for the course with coaching changes, but the job has just gotten less attractive.

Bring Shaver back, let those who were going to go, go, roll up the sleeves, re-build, and hand it over to Holmes at the appropriate time. Enough.

Do you really think Huge would do that? If her goal is hiring a new coach to springboard to P5, she makes herself look even more impotent by backtracking.

No it doesn't Mr. J. She has the built in excuse. She is new to the program, to the culture, to the team and to the history. The timing is 100% the problem. If Huge, Dr. Rowe and the BOV were to do this, it would be a backtrack, it would be the most honest, forward thinking move in an athletic department in a long long time. Make up something. "Say, I was watching Rick Byrd coach his team in the NCAA's and realized I was watching our 2020 Tribe team. Say, the stress and disappointment of a bad 2nd half loss to my former school caused me to lose my focus. Then, say my job is to always do what is best for the college and its students and this is what is best for them. Forgiveness comes quickly when you do the right thing. If 5 people ridicule W&M, it will be less than the droves that have been with us for years that are contemplating moving on. Do what is right, and it will work out. ADmitted that it takes a very special person to do that, though. And it would take several since Tony would have to approached, along with all of the other players and JH, JB and AS. It is the only WIN-WIN that exists.

Something along the lines of this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OjYoNL4g5Vg

If we have one more player enter the transfer portal....

https://youtu.be/fG9IHqwHYgI

(03-21-2019 01:41 PM)TribePride91 Wrote:  

(03-20-2019 09:22 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(03-20-2019 09:12 PM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-20-2019 09:01 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(03-20-2019 08:52 PM)Naptown Tribe Wrote:  So do we think everyone is truly gone or just keeping all options open until a new coach is hired?

It is absolutely crazy to think where we were a month ago with everyone except for Paul coming back and now could be hardly anyone ... how is Huge gonna salvage this?

So beyond frustrating


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I don't know. I think the longer it goes, the more likely. I also think the right hire could bring most back to the fold. I'm not sure that we will get the right hire though. Transfers are par for the course with coaching changes, but the job has just gotten less attractive.

Bring Shaver back, let those who were going to go, go, roll up the sleeves, re-build, and hand it over to Holmes at the appropriate time. Enough.

Do you really think Huge would do that? If her goal is hiring a new coach to springboard to P5, she makes herself look even more impotent by backtracking.

No it doesn't Mr. J. She has the built in excuse. She is new to the program, to the culture, to the team and to the history. The timing is 100% the problem. If Huge, Dr. Rowe and the BOV were to do this, it would be a backtrack, it would be the most honest, forward thinking move in an athletic department in a long long time. Make up something. "Say, I was watching Rick Byrd coach his team in the NCAA's and realized I was watching our 2020 Tribe team. Say, the stress and disappointment of a bad 2nd half loss to my former school caused me to lose my focus. Then, say my job is to always do what is best for the college and its students and this is what is best for them. Forgiveness comes quickly when you do the right thing. If 5 people ridicule W&M, it will be less than the droves that have been with us for years that are contemplating moving on. Do what is right, and it will work out. ADmitted that it takes a very special person to do that, though. And it would take several since Tony would have to approached, along with all of the other players and JH, JB and AS. It is the only WIN-WIN that exists.

Tony's gone. No one's backtracking.

Milon has followed a coach from Illinois and one from GA Tech in the last day or two.

For Millon and JP, they should consider playing time vs big program experience. If they stay, they will get about 30 min. per game whereas they would not play this much if they were to transfer. I think they will get about 10~15 min. at most if not less.

Neither is going to move up just to play 10-15 minutes. They can pick somewhere where they can fill a void or just come back. Not sure what Milon's minutes look like here next year either though. He may be the odd many out if we move to a more defensive minded approach.

(04-08-2019 10:24 AM)tribeintexas Wrote:  For Millon and JP, they should consider playing time vs big program experience. If they stay, they will get about 30 min. per game whereas they would not play this much if they were to transfer. I think they will get about 10~15 min. at most if not less.

(04-08-2019 10:24 AM)tribeintexas Wrote:  For Millon and JP, they should consider playing time vs big program experience. If they stay, they will get about 30 min. per game whereas they would not play this much if they were to transfer. I think they will get about 10~15 min. at most if not less.

A lot of P5 schools would be happy to start Pierce.

Milon might be more of a specialist at the level he appears to be targeting, but I would think the floor is the 16 MPG kind of role Malinowski played this year, since Milon is in higher demand than Greg was.

You are assuming Milon goes to P5. I’m not sure about that. He already had that and transferred here. I’d see another mid major.


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(04-08-2019 01:46 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  You are assuming Milon goes to P5. I’m not sure about that. He already had that and transferred here. I’d see another mid major.


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He has been linked to Florida, N.C. State, Oklahoma, Charlotte, Loyola Chicago, Seton Hall, Creighton, USC, Wake Forest, Illinois and Georgia Tech. The tendency is clearly towards P5 schools. It's not out of the question for him to go to another MM and be a featured guy but given that he could play real minutes for a big-time program I would speculate that that's Plan A. Schools like Virginia Tech or Purdue might very well offer him the first spot in line for a starting job.

For those of you who look at things like this:

Milon, I am nearly positive, deleted all mention of Tribe basketball from his Twitter background once he informed re the portal. I just checked and saw this...

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