(02-02-2021 08:41 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-01-2021 07:12 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-01-2021 05:33 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-01-2021 05:16 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Again I ask, how are you defining an incompetent teacher? If peers, parents, and supervisors are in agreement that the teacher isn't doing the job- then I think that is fair. The fact that multiple checks and reviews are required for discipline/removal sounds solid. I don't like the fact that a poor teachers record wouldn't pass on to the next potential teaching interview. I don't know if this is always the case, or a byproduct of resigning for "personal reasons" before being fired.

Private schools have no problem with incompetent teachers. There, teachers have annual contracts. Students and administrators review teacher performance every spring. If the teacher is not cutting it, then they are not rehired. In public schools, NCLB mandated "highly qualified teachers." In practice, that only meant the teacher had a bachelor's degree in the subject she taught. NCLB also set up annual tests to see if students were making adequate yearly progress. Congress assumed public schools would police underperforming teachers whose students didn't learn. Unfortunately, teachers unions rebelled. Teachers taught to the test all year long. Students suffered. Good teachers always protect the bad ones. Just like a trade union.

You still didn't define "incompetent teacher" or "underperforming teachers".

Regulatory oversight over public school teachers is so lax that the PA School Code does not even define "incompetency." A court held the term means "an inability, incapacity, or lack of ability, legal qualification, or fitness to discharge the required duties." This vagueness is by design. You can't fire an incompetent teacher if you don't define the term.

(02-02-2021 12:56 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 12:49 PM)wml33t Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 12:46 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 12:29 PM)wml33t Wrote:  I've been really, really trying hard to stay out of this discussion, but I'm finding it harder and harder.

83 - what SHOULD a teacher be paid? What is this based on? What other careers are you comparing to? Please show your math. And please, don't deflect by talking about performance. What is the "right" pay for a teacher?

I'm not going to bother responding. Clearly, you think teachers should make six figures, to go along with their great benefits, summers off and no accountability.

How can you have a reasoned discussion without being willing to set a baseline for what the correct pay is? I have been frustrated by your statements, yes. I'm not saying teachers "should" make 6 figures (and there's a lot of evidence in this thread that your claim that it's the average pay is false anyways). But it's an incredibly infuriating "debate method" to throw around bold statements and claims that something is wrong, inappropriate, etc while being unwilling to state what IS appropriate.

Teacher pay in PA is a matter of public record. It's not a "claim." The median teacher salary in the SD where I live is over $100,000. https://data.ydr.com/educator-salary/pa-1234693030/

You can't talk about teacher pay without considering accountability. Some teachers in online environments even have implemented "office hours." That way they only have to bother answering student questions during certain hours of the school day. It's infuriating that many teachers are sitting at home, posting random YouTube videos loftily dubbed "asynchronous learning," collecting full salary and complaining they're underpaid.

(02-02-2021 01:30 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  With regard to median teacher salary, your math is off. From an earlier reply I had:

"The top standard elementary/secondary teacher is at $116k, and there's ballpark roughly the same number of teachers above and below $100k. Roughly half of the teachers below $100k are greater than $16K below. The average teacher salary is not $100k."

The median teacher/administrator salary might be over $100k.

With regard to that, how many of those teachers are former administrators whose salary didn't change when they started teaching again because there were not enough applicants? You're saying things as if they're absolutes, without consideration for all of the vagaries that go into the evaluation of the teaching profession.

Also, "I'm not going to bother responding." sounds a lot like "Well, if you don't know what's wrong, I'm not going to tell you." Make your case. We're asking you to back up the claims you're making so that we can discuss them or offer reasons why we think they're incorrect.

(02-02-2021 01:25 PM)wml33t Wrote:  For perspective. This is data from Salary.com. This is the medium salary range for a number of positions in Philadelphia, PA:

Grocery Store Manager - 86,613
Police Officer - 61,900
Executive Assistant - 74,491
K-5 Teacher - 63,802
Lawyer II - 141,160
Licensed Plumber - 62,200
Help Desk Technician - 48,806
Software Engineer I - 75,000
Software Engineer III - 119,676
Restaurant Manager - 59,184
Financial Accounting Manager - 115,300

Salary.com data collection isn't perfect, but it's all collected in a similar way.

(02-02-2021 01:39 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:30 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  With regard to median teacher salary, your math is off. From an earlier reply I had:

"The top standard elementary/secondary teacher is at $116k, and there's ballpark roughly the same number of teachers above and below $100k. Roughly half of the teachers below $100k are greater than $16K below. The average teacher salary is not $100k."

The median teacher/administrator salary might be over $100k.

With regard to that, how many of those teachers are former administrators whose salary didn't change when they started teaching again because there were not enough applicants? You're saying things as if they're absolutes, without consideration for all of the vagaries that go into the evaluation of the teaching profession.

Also, "I'm not going to bother responding." sounds a lot like "Well, if you don't know what's wrong, I'm not going to tell you." Make your case. We're asking you to back up the claims you're making so that we can discuss them or offer reasons why we think they're incorrect.

Teachers refuse to let the public hold them accountable for student progress. Congress intended NCLB to do that, but teachers and administrators threw a hissy fit. You speak of the teaching "profession." Professionals police their own members. Doctors and lawyers do it. Many doctors and lawyers lose their licenses for poor performance. Teachers make it virtually impossible for the Board to get rid of incompetent teachers.

(02-02-2021 01:49 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:25 PM)wml33t Wrote:  For perspective. This is data from Salary.com. This is the medium salary range for a number of positions in Philadelphia, PA:

Grocery Store Manager - 86,613
Police Officer - 61,900
Executive Assistant - 74,491
K-5 Teacher - 63,802
Lawyer II - 141,160
Licensed Plumber - 62,200
Help Desk Technician - 48,806
Software Engineer I - 75,000
Software Engineer III - 119,676
Restaurant Manager - 59,184
Financial Accounting Manager - 115,300

Salary.com data collection isn't perfect, but it's all collected in a similar way.

How many of the jobs you listed feature great benefits, summers off and iron-clad, guaranteed employment until retirement?

(02-02-2021 01:49 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:25 PM)wml33t Wrote:  For perspective. This is data from Salary.com. This is the medium salary range for a number of positions in Philadelphia, PA:

Grocery Store Manager - 86,613
Police Officer - 61,900
Executive Assistant - 74,491
K-5 Teacher - 63,802
Lawyer II - 141,160
Licensed Plumber - 62,200
Help Desk Technician - 48,806
Software Engineer I - 75,000
Software Engineer III - 119,676
Restaurant Manager - 59,184
Financial Accounting Manager - 115,300

Salary.com data collection isn't perfect, but it's all collected in a similar way.

How many of the jobs you listed feature great benefits, summers off and iron-clad, guaranteed employment until retirement?

(02-02-2021 02:00 PM)wml33t Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:49 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:25 PM)wml33t Wrote:  For perspective. This is data from Salary.com. This is the medium salary range for a number of positions in Philadelphia, PA:

Grocery Store Manager - 86,613
Police Officer - 61,900
Executive Assistant - 74,491
K-5 Teacher - 63,802
Lawyer II - 141,160
Licensed Plumber - 62,200
Help Desk Technician - 48,806
Software Engineer I - 75,000
Software Engineer III - 119,676
Restaurant Manager - 59,184
Financial Accounting Manager - 115,300

Salary.com data collection isn't perfect, but it's all collected in a similar way.

How many of the jobs you listed feature great benefits, summers off and iron-clad, guaranteed employment until retirement?

Probably a little bit of everything.

Some of those (i.e. software engineer, help desk technician, maybe financial accounting manager) are in state or federal jobs which have many of the same employment protections that teachers have. Pennsylvania is a very Union strong state. I know from personal experience that there are even federal jobs that are unionized. So many probably have jobs with great employment protections and benefits because of the strong unions.

So I can't quantify it certainly, but I think it would be naïve to think teachers are the only ones on that list with strong employment protection and benefits.

(02-02-2021 01:54 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:49 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:25 PM)wml33t Wrote:  For perspective. This is data from Salary.com. This is the medium salary range for a number of positions in Philadelphia, PA:

Grocery Store Manager - 86,613
Police Officer - 61,900
Executive Assistant - 74,491
K-5 Teacher - 63,802
Lawyer II - 141,160
Licensed Plumber - 62,200
Help Desk Technician - 48,806
Software Engineer I - 75,000
Software Engineer III - 119,676
Restaurant Manager - 59,184
Financial Accounting Manager - 115,300

Salary.com data collection isn't perfect, but it's all collected in a similar way.

How many of the jobs you listed feature great benefits, summers off and iron-clad, guaranteed employment until retirement?

With regard to "summers off"... add up the hours teachers work over 9 months. Summer is comp time.

(02-02-2021 01:17 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Moving this out of the COVID thread.

(02-02-2021 08:41 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-01-2021 07:12 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-01-2021 05:33 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-01-2021 05:16 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Again I ask, how are you defining an incompetent teacher? If peers, parents, and supervisors are in agreement that the teacher isn't doing the job- then I think that is fair. The fact that multiple checks and reviews are required for discipline/removal sounds solid. I don't like the fact that a poor teachers record wouldn't pass on to the next potential teaching interview. I don't know if this is always the case, or a byproduct of resigning for "personal reasons" before being fired.

Private schools have no problem with incompetent teachers. There, teachers have annual contracts. Students and administrators review teacher performance every spring. If the teacher is not cutting it, then they are not rehired. In public schools, NCLB mandated "highly qualified teachers." In practice, that only meant the teacher had a bachelor's degree in the subject she taught. NCLB also set up annual tests to see if students were making adequate yearly progress. Congress assumed public schools would police underperforming teachers whose students didn't learn. Unfortunately, teachers unions rebelled. Teachers taught to the test all year long. Students suffered. Good teachers always protect the bad ones. Just like a trade union.

You still didn't define "incompetent teacher" or "underperforming teachers".

Regulatory oversight over public school teachers is so lax that the PA School Code does not even define "incompetency." A court held the term means "an inability, incapacity, or lack of ability, legal qualification, or fitness to discharge the required duties." This vagueness is by design. You can't fire an incompetent teacher if you don't define the term.

This vagueness is by necessity. Do teachers getting the remedial class have the same measurables as those teaching an honors class? Does that mean that teachers have to be rotated in order to balance their class types? What if the teacher gets a class of students that does not put in the work no matter how many extra hours the teacher spends trying different strategies? What if the teacher doesn't do any work but has a class of students that put in extra work outside of class? Those are just a handful of the variables in play. Even just the measurables themselves are problematic. Measuring a teacher's performance against students' year over year grades doesn't take into account all the variables that can go into grades. Now throw in that it has to be codified so that teachers are evaluated fairly against each other, does that mean you have to go 3 year average, or 5 or 7? Again, the questions I have above are only a small portion of variables.

Private schools have different requirements for teachers, but they also have requirements for students.

(02-02-2021 02:05 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:54 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:49 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  How many of the jobs you listed feature great benefits, summers off and iron-clad, guaranteed employment until retirement?

With regard to "summers off"... add up the hours teachers work over 9 months. Summer is comp time.

Ha. One of the most cherished myths in America is the selfless, underpaid, heroic public school teacher. If you just admit that fable is untrue, then we're in agreement.

(02-02-2021 01:57 PM)wml33t Wrote:  Finally got the chance to do some digging...

I first looked at that link from 83 and agree that the claims he's making have some real logic flaws as it is including non-teachers.1

That being said, looking at their salary scale in their collective bargaining agreement, a new teacher is going to make 54k. By comparison, fwiw, a WJCC brand new teacher would make 43k. This seems like a big gap until you look at cost of living.

According to CNN's cost of living calculator, 55k in Philly is like making 47k in Hampton Roads. So it's higher, but not insanely higher.

The scale goes up based on time in position, higher degrees, etc. The salary growth for Wissahickon SD is friendlier than it is in WJCC for sure, but in any profession isn't self development and experience rewarded?2

I again challenge - what are you suggesting is the "right" salary? I posted a bunch of roles in Philly and what they make. Should a teacher average meaningfully less than a software developer? More than a police officer? Less than a Grocery Store Manager? Less than an Executive Assistant? More than a Help Desk Technician?3

I'm trying to figure out where the line and disdain is for you to try and have a reasoned conversation.

Here's my general stance, and it's a lot like what WMInTheBurg has stated.

The best way, in any profession, to improve talent is to make the job more desirable. Whether that's more benefits, greater pay, whatever it is.4 So if you are saying there is a quality of teacher problem, then your argument for fixing it (getting rid of teachers) is only part of the equation. You need new teachers to come in and fill those roles.

Unlike many other professions, there are very specific requirements to become a teacher (namely I mean at least a bachelor's degree and a certification).5 That reduces your talent pool alone. Then you have people that, for whatever their own assessment is, do not feel that the package they get as a teacher is worth the negatives of doing that job.6

The best way to increase the talent pool IMO? Higher salaries.7 Plain and simple. You can throw out numbers all you want, but how many high achieving classmates/friends/family do you have that have their goals set on being a teacher? Why isn't that number higher? I'd posit it's because they don't pay enough to put up with the "headaches".

(02-02-2021 02:14 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:17 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 08:41 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-01-2021 07:12 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-01-2021 05:33 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  Private schools have no problem with incompetent teachers. There, teachers have annual contracts. Students and administrators review teacher performance every spring. If the teacher is not cutting it, then they are not rehired. In public schools, NCLB mandated "highly qualified teachers." In practice, that only meant the teacher had a bachelor's degree in the subject she taught. NCLB also set up annual tests to see if students were making adequate yearly progress. Congress assumed public schools would police underperforming teachers whose students didn't learn. Unfortunately, teachers unions rebelled. Teachers taught to the test all year long. Students suffered. Good teachers always protect the bad ones. Just like a trade union.

You still didn't define "incompetent teacher" or "underperforming teachers".

Regulatory oversight over public school teachers is so lax that the PA School Code does not even define "incompetency." A court held the term means "an inability, incapacity, or lack of ability, legal qualification, or fitness to discharge the required duties." This vagueness is by design. You can't fire an incompetent teacher if you don't define the term.

This vagueness is by necessity. Do teachers getting the remedial class have the same measurables as those teaching an honors class? Does that mean that teachers have to be rotated in order to balance their class types? What if the teacher gets a class of students that does not put in the work no matter how many extra hours the teacher spends trying different strategies? What if the teacher doesn't do any work but has a class of students that put in extra work outside of class? Those are just a handful of the variables in play. Even just the measurables themselves are problematic. Measuring a teacher's performance against students' year over year grades doesn't take into account all the variables that can go into grades. Now throw in that it has to be codified so that teachers are evaluated fairly against each other, does that mean you have to go 3 year average, or 5 or 7? Again, the questions I have above are only a small portion of variables.

Private schools have different requirements for teachers, but they also have requirements for students.

The PSEA rejoices in whining that its too difficult to evaluate teachers. To them, it follows that all teachers deserve a raise, even the dolts and slackers. Must be infuriating for a hardworking teacher to watch her more senior colleague down the hall phone it in all year and make more money than he/ she does.

(02-02-2021 02:04 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 02:00 PM)wml33t Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:49 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:25 PM)wml33t Wrote:  For perspective. This is data from Salary.com. This is the medium salary range for a number of positions in Philadelphia, PA:

Grocery Store Manager - 86,613
Police Officer - 61,900
Executive Assistant - 74,491
K-5 Teacher - 63,802
Lawyer II - 141,160
Licensed Plumber - 62,200
Help Desk Technician - 48,806
Software Engineer I - 75,000
Software Engineer III - 119,676
Restaurant Manager - 59,184
Financial Accounting Manager - 115,300

Salary.com data collection isn't perfect, but it's all collected in a similar way.

How many of the jobs you listed feature great benefits, summers off and iron-clad, guaranteed employment until retirement?

Probably a little bit of everything.

Some of those (i.e. software engineer, help desk technician, maybe financial accounting manager) are in state or federal jobs which have many of the same employment protections that teachers have. Pennsylvania is a very Union strong state. I know from personal experience that there are even federal jobs that are unionized. So many probably have jobs with great employment protections and benefits because of the strong unions.

So I can't quantify it certainly, but I think it would be naïve to think teachers are the only ones on that list with strong employment protection and benefits.

If your point is that teachers in the SD of Phila make less than those elsewhere in PA, then I agree.

(02-02-2021 02:31 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 02:14 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:17 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 08:41 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-01-2021 07:12 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  You still didn't define "incompetent teacher" or "underperforming teachers".

Regulatory oversight over public school teachers is so lax that the PA School Code does not even define "incompetency." A court held the term means "an inability, incapacity, or lack of ability, legal qualification, or fitness to discharge the required duties." This vagueness is by design. You can't fire an incompetent teacher if you don't define the term.

This vagueness is by necessity. Do teachers getting the remedial class have the same measurables as those teaching an honors class? Does that mean that teachers have to be rotated in order to balance their class types? What if the teacher gets a class of students that does not put in the work no matter how many extra hours the teacher spends trying different strategies? What if the teacher doesn't do any work but has a class of students that put in extra work outside of class? Those are just a handful of the variables in play. Even just the measurables themselves are problematic. Measuring a teacher's performance against students' year over year grades doesn't take into account all the variables that can go into grades. Now throw in that it has to be codified so that teachers are evaluated fairly against each other, does that mean you have to go 3 year average, or 5 or 7? Again, the questions I have above are only a small portion of variables.

Private schools have different requirements for teachers, but they also have requirements for students.

The PSEA rejoices in whining that its too difficult to evaluate teachers. To them, it follows that all teachers deserve a raise, even the dolts and slackers. Must be infuriating for a hardworking teacher to watch her more senior colleague down the hall phone it in all year and make more money than he/ she does.

Right, difficult for all the reasons (and more) that I listed. Are you arguing that those reasons are invalid?

(02-02-2021 02:31 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  3. Teachers should be paid by merit, not seniority. If a teacher's students make good progress, then that teacher should earn more. If a teacher's class performs poorly, then that teacher should go. That is what NCLB intended. Sadly, teachers and administrators rebelled against such accountability.

(02-02-2021 02:41 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 02:31 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  3. Teachers should be paid by merit, not seniority. If a teacher's students make good progress, then that teacher should earn more. If a teacher's class performs poorly, then that teacher should go. That is what NCLB intended. Sadly, teachers and administrators rebelled against such accountability.

Teachers are not opposed to performance evaluations. They're against faulty performance evaluations. NCLB sounds great, but for the reasons I listed above it falls short of achieving its goal. You haven't provided any evidence to support your opinions. I think the thread is done unless you have something of substance to add.