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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Zorch - 10-13-2020 09:01 AM

(10-13-2020 06:37 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 09:56 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  Just a note about the numbers. Why are M and W swimming and M and W golf lumped together on this chart but M and W soccer separate? Track, gymnastics, tennis, same thing...separate.

Swimming and golf have a shared team budget and shared coaching staffs.

I don't know about the shared team budget part but the Tribe website shows that Cross Country and Track share coaching staffs across both genders and that Gymnastics share the Head Coach (but have separate Assistant Coaches).


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Tribe32 - 10-13-2020 09:03 AM

I don't know if any of the money is left, but men's golf and women's tennis were given huge donations many years back by Mark McCormick and his wife, Betsy Nagelsen. Thus the name of the Tennis center on campus.

This is a good example of where teams have become self funded.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Zorch - 10-13-2020 09:06 AM

(10-13-2020 08:44 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 06:37 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 09:56 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  Just a note about the numbers. Why are M and W swimming and M and W golf lumped together on this chart but M and W soccer separate? Track, gymnastics, tennis, same thing...separate.

Swimming and golf have a shared team budget and shared coaching staffs.

Got it. Thanks. So Golf raised more money per student-athlete than swimming and would, logically, cost less in other overhead costs. Less training staff needed. less academic support (though both, especially swimming have great students), less weight room needs, etc. And twice as many teams compete in the CAA (and around the country) in golf than in swimming. I'm not going to deep dive into the numbers of every sport but the decision between the two sports here make sense to me. The impressive fundraising number LAST year to me was men's gymnastics. But there just aren't enough schools competing.

Men's Swimming has won 6 CAA titles in a row and the women have won at least 2 in that same timespan. That is useful to know if the Athletic Department is serious about wanting 35 CAA championships in 5 (7?) years. Has men's golf or women's golf EVER won a CAA championship?


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - nogretheogre - 10-13-2020 09:15 AM

Not trying to say those numbers arent valid and could have themselves been enough for the change, but what months define the fiscal year? The COVID recession could also be a factor. What was the dropoff from '18 to '19?


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Tribe32 - 10-13-2020 09:35 AM

I believe the FY is July through June. So we are now in FY 2021


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Zorch - 10-13-2020 09:38 AM

(10-13-2020 09:15 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Not trying to say those numbers arent valid and could have themselves been enough for the change, but what months define the fiscal year? The COVID recession could also be a factor. What was the dropoff from '18 to '19?

The link in the post below (originally from several pages above) answers the question about dropoffs in other years.

(10-06-2020 03:21 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I saw a spreadsheet on the Tribe Athletics site that shows the fundraising history, by sport, of the Tribe Club for the last seven years. It is called "Tribe Club Fundraising History (7 Years)" at this link:

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2020/9/16/william-mary-athletics-realignment-documents.aspx?id=1869

It is interesting to note several things about the spreadsheet. First, it separates all men's and women's sports except for swimming and golf where they are combined. So, of the 17 different entries on the sheet, 13 of them suffered drops in Tribe Club giving between 2019 and 2020. Some of those drops were quite large which I wlll highlight below. However, of the 4 that saw gains in giving, 3 of them were Swimming, Men's Gymnastics, and Women's Gymnastics (the fourth was Women's Basketball). WBB went up only $1,715.76 (2%). Swimming went up $58,993.47 (44.6%!). MGym went up $25,870.49 (27.5%) and WGym went up $19,731.43 (91.7%).

Football went down $277K (39%), MBB went down $254K (61.6%). Baseball and MSoc also had large drops.

The point is: hopefully the new AD will look at this and realize that since only 4 sports had increased their donations in the last year that maybe cutting 3 of those 4 sports was not such a great idea !!



RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Zorch - 10-13-2020 01:10 PM

Article in the RTD about a faculty motion. Goods points made. I especially liked this line: "These motions seek to address the flaws in the previous strategic plan and involve a broader base of faculty, students, and staff in decision-making rather than a hand-picked in-group.”

https://richmond.com/sports/college/william-and-mary/w-m-faculty-members-request-new-athletics-strategic-plan-reformation-of-sports-governance/article_9acc5680-22b6-573f-9c5c-78af7cafbaa7.html


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Tribe3455 - 10-13-2020 03:18 PM

(10-13-2020 09:06 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 08:44 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 06:37 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 09:56 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  Just a note about the numbers. Why are M and W swimming and M and W golf lumped together on this chart but M and W soccer separate? Track, gymnastics, tennis, same thing...separate.

Swimming and golf have a shared team budget and shared coaching staffs.

Got it. Thanks. So Golf raised more money per student-athlete than swimming and would, logically, cost less in other overhead costs. Less training staff needed. less academic support (though both, especially swimming have great students), less weight room needs, etc. And twice as many teams compete in the CAA (and around the country) in golf than in swimming. I'm not going to deep dive into the numbers of every sport but the decision between the two sports here make sense to me. The impressive fundraising number LAST year to me was men's gymnastics. But there just aren't enough schools competing.

Men's Swimming has won 6 CAA titles in a row and the women have won at least 2 in that same timespan. That is useful to know if the Athletic Department is serious about wanting 35 CAA championships in 5 (7?) years. Has men's golf or women's golf EVER won a CAA championship?

Neither program has moved the needle much nationally though I'd say golf arguably has had the most success. Golf has had a handful of NCAA regional qualifiers.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Old tribe - 10-13-2020 03:55 PM

Here's an interesting article that specifically mentions W&M. The author argues that cutting varsity teams is actually a good thing because it allows those teams to shift to club status, where more students are able to participate and the teams aren't burdened by NCAA rules. Food for thought.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/sports/college-sports-cuts.html

The author also notes a point that I don't think has been mentioned much in this discussion. At the Division I level, football and basketball are used as marketing vehicles for the university. If you go back and watch Martin's talk, that's definitely acknowledged in his slide that compares Division I to Division III. That's part of the reason those sports are prioritized. Right or wrong, people pay more attention to them.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Zorch - 10-13-2020 04:23 PM

(10-13-2020 03:55 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  Here's an interesting article that specifically mentions W&M. The author argues that cutting varsity teams is actually a good thing because it allows those teams to shift to club status, where more students are able to participate and the teams aren't burdened by NCAA rules. Food for thought.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/sports/college-sports-cuts.html

The author also notes a point that I don't think has been mentioned much in this discussion. At the Division I level, football and basketball are used as marketing vehicles for the university. If you go back and watch Martin's talk, that's definitely acknowledged in his slide that compares Division I to Division III. That's part of the reason those sports are prioritized. Right or wrong, people pay more attention to them.

The article says: "Ultimately, few of the cut varsity teams will actually perish. They will just transition to being club teams". So, does W&M have a club wrestling team? Does it have club fencing or club men's lacrosse? Maybe it does but I doubt it. Once it is gone, it is gone.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Zorch - 10-13-2020 04:31 PM

(10-13-2020 03:18 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 09:06 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 08:44 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 06:37 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 09:56 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  Just a note about the numbers. Why are M and W swimming and M and W golf lumped together on this chart but M and W soccer separate? Track, gymnastics, tennis, same thing...separate.

Swimming and golf have a shared team budget and shared coaching staffs.

Got it. Thanks. So Golf raised more money per student-athlete than swimming and would, logically, cost less in other overhead costs. Less training staff needed. less academic support (though both, especially swimming have great students), less weight room needs, etc. And twice as many teams compete in the CAA (and around the country) in golf than in swimming. I'm not going to deep dive into the numbers of every sport but the decision between the two sports here make sense to me. The impressive fundraising number LAST year to me was men's gymnastics. But there just aren't enough schools competing.

Men's Swimming has won 6 CAA titles in a row and the women have won at least 2 in that same timespan. That is useful to know if the Athletic Department is serious about wanting 35 CAA championships in 5 (7?) years. Has men's golf or women's golf EVER won a CAA championship?

Neither program has moved the needle much nationally though I'd say golf arguably has had the most success. Golf has had a handful of NCAA regional qualifiers.

I'd say that "arguably" is definitely the right word. First off, I was referring to the AD's stated goal of 35 CAA championships. Swimming has that, golf does not. Individual regional qualifiers is not the same thing. Besides, haven't you heard about swimmer Colin Wright, who just graduated. This is from his bio (note that "NCAA Invitation" refers to Nationals, not Regionals):

Named All-American by the CSCAA in both the 50 free and the 100 free, after the NCAA Championships were cancelled due to CoVID-19 ... Earned NCAA invitations in both events, the first for a W&M men's swimmer since 1963 ... Voted the VaSID State Men's Swimmer of the Year ... Also first-team all-state in the freestyle and on the 200 free relay ... Second-team All-State on both 400 free relay and the 400 medley relay ... Named the CAA Swimmer of the Year ... Ranked fourth in the nation in the 50 free and eighth in the 100 free ... Most Outstanding Swimmer of the CAA Championships for the second year in a row ... Won all seven of his CAA events for the second year in a row ... Broke the conference's all-time records with 24 event wins and 15 relay wins ... Set the CAA all-time record in all seven events ...

So, I'd say that that is "moving the needle".


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - zablenoise - 10-13-2020 04:31 PM

(10-13-2020 04:23 PM)Zorch Wrote:  The article says: "Ultimately, few of the cut varsity teams will actually perish. They will just transition to being club teams". So, does W&M have a club wrestling team? Does it have club fencing or club men's lacrosse? Maybe it does but I doubt it. Once it is gone, it is gone.

Yes to all 3 actually. I knew lax but not the others.

https://tribelink.wm.edu/organization/fencingclub
https://tribelink.wm.edu/organization/lacrossem
https://tribelink.wm.edu/organization/wrestlingm


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Zorch - 10-13-2020 04:33 PM

(10-13-2020 04:31 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 04:23 PM)Zorch Wrote:  The article says: "Ultimately, few of the cut varsity teams will actually perish. They will just transition to being club teams". So, does W&M have a club wrestling team? Does it have club fencing or club men's lacrosse? Maybe it does but I doubt it. Once it is gone, it is gone.

Yes to all 3 actually. I knew lax but not the others.

https://tribelink.wm.edu/organization/fencingclub
https://tribelink.wm.edu/organization/lacrossem
https://tribelink.wm.edu/organization/wrestlingm

I'm surprised ...and I stand corrected. Thanks for setting that straight.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - WMTribe90 - 10-13-2020 04:44 PM

(10-13-2020 03:55 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  Here's an interesting article that specifically mentions W&M. The author argues that cutting varsity teams is actually a good thing because it allows those teams to shift to club status, where more students are able to participate and the teams aren't burdened by NCAA rules. Food for thought.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/sports/college-sports-cuts.html

The author also notes a point that I don't think has been mentioned much in this discussion. At the Division I level, football and basketball are used as marketing vehicles for the university. If you go back and watch Martin's talk, that's definitely acknowledged in his slide that compares Division I to Division III. That's part of the reason those sports are prioritized. Right or wrong, people pay more attention to them.

I’ll bite. There’s nothing wrong with offering club sports, and having a club sport is better than nothing. However, we’re not going to attract the same caliber of student athlete to come to W&M to participate in club swimming or club track. Those exceptional kids will go elsewhere, DIII or another DI program. While not having to comply with NCAA rules may be nice for the athletic department, the kids actually view being an athlete competing under the NCAA banner as a positive. High schools don’t hold signing ceremonies for kids going to college to play a club sport.

As for the argument that W&M needs improve its brand through greater success in revenue sports, I think this motivation is a poor fit for the culture of the College. It also misses the point that W&M is already a nationally recognized brand in academic circles, where it matters. What you are asking us to accept is that it's worth taking away opportunities for 30% of the College’s athletes to cut 15% of the budget. For what? So, we have a slightly better chance of being a one and done NCAA tournament participant? At the end of the day, the CAA is a one-bid league. We could double the basketball budget and I’m not sure it greatly improves our odds of making the dance. More importantly, WM alums pride in the school isn’t conditioned or contingent on the College’s athletic prowess. We take pride in competing with true student athletes and doing more with less. We take pride in valuing all members of the athletic Tribe equally! These decisions to cut off members of the Tribe without fighting like heck to keep them runs counter to our values and culture.

As for football, it’s my understanding we offer the full compliment of scholarships and our facilities have been brought up to par or better with our FCS peers. Again, I fail to see where pouring additional money into football brings us an appreciable competitive advantage. Realistically, we will live or die with our ability to find and recruit quality players that can handle WM academically. That has always been both the draw and the hurdle and not one money alone can solve. Even if we won an FCS title, I don’t see that greatly increasing applications to W&M. The types of students that apply to W&M will continue to be drawn to the school wether or not we win an FCS title or go dancing.

It’s ridiculous for WM to justify these cuts using a playbook designed for lesser known regional schools with midling academics to increase their brand, donations and enrollment. We are not JMU or ODU. It shows a complete lack of understanding of our supporters, students, and alumni.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Tribe3455 - 10-13-2020 04:56 PM

(10-13-2020 04:31 PM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 03:18 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 09:06 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 08:44 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 06:37 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  Swimming and golf have a shared team budget and shared coaching staffs.

Got it. Thanks. So Golf raised more money per student-athlete than swimming and would, logically, cost less in other overhead costs. Less training staff needed. less academic support (though both, especially swimming have great students), less weight room needs, etc. And twice as many teams compete in the CAA (and around the country) in golf than in swimming. I'm not going to deep dive into the numbers of every sport but the decision between the two sports here make sense to me. The impressive fundraising number LAST year to me was men's gymnastics. But there just aren't enough schools competing.

Men's Swimming has won 6 CAA titles in a row and the women have won at least 2 in that same timespan. That is useful to know if the Athletic Department is serious about wanting 35 CAA championships in 5 (7?) years. Has men's golf or women's golf EVER won a CAA championship?

Neither program has moved the needle much nationally though I'd say golf arguably has had the most success. Golf has had a handful of NCAA regional qualifiers.

I'd say that "arguably" is definitely the right word. First off, I was referring to the AD's stated goal of 35 CAA championships. Swimming has that, golf does not. Individual regional qualifiers is not the same thing. Besides, haven't you heard about swimmer Colin Wright, who just graduated. This is from his bio (note that "NCAA Invitation" refers to Nationals, not Regionals):

Named All-American by the CSCAA in both the 50 free and the 100 free, after the NCAA Championships were cancelled due to CoVID-19 ... Earned NCAA invitations in both events, the first for a W&M men's swimmer since 1963 ... Voted the VaSID State Men's Swimmer of the Year ... Also first-team all-state in the freestyle and on the 200 free relay ... Second-team All-State on both 400 free relay and the 400 medley relay ... Named the CAA Swimmer of the Year ... Ranked fourth in the nation in the 50 free and eighth in the 100 free ... Most Outstanding Swimmer of the CAA Championships for the second year in a row ... Won all seven of his CAA events for the second year in a row ... Broke the conference's all-time records with 24 event wins and 15 relay wins ... Set the CAA all-time record in all seven events ...

So, I'd say that that is "moving the needle".

Great athlete, no doubt. But the first NCAA swimmer in 35 years.

I simply stand by the fact that golf is pretty much a mainstay in NCAA athletics. Eight teams compete in the conference. Swimming is represented by less than half the schools as golf and the CAA only has five representatives. Sadly it happens to be a sport that universities cut. I am not saying swimming should be cut I am simply stating that I understand why golf is kept instead.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Tribe32 - 10-13-2020 05:08 PM

(10-13-2020 04:44 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 03:55 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  Here's an interesting article that specifically mentions W&M. The author argues that cutting varsity teams is actually a good thing because it allows those teams to shift to club status, where more students are able to participate and the teams aren't burdened by NCAA rules. Food for thought.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/sports/college-sports-cuts.html

The author also notes a point that I don't think has been mentioned much in this discussion. At the Division I level, football and basketball are used as marketing vehicles for the university. If you go back and watch Martin's talk, that's definitely acknowledged in his slide that compares Division I to Division III. That's part of the reason those sports are prioritized. Right or wrong, people pay more attention to them.

As for the argument that W&M needs improve its brand through greater success in revenue sports, I think this motivation is a poor fit for the culture of the College. It also misses the point that W&M is already a nationally recognized brand in academic circles, where it matters. What you are asking us to accept is that it's worth taking away opportunities for 30% of the College’s athletes to cut 15% of the budget. For what? So, we have a slightly better chance of being a one and done NCAA tournament participant? At the end of the day, the CAA is a one-bid league. We could double the basketball budget and I’m not sure it greatly improves our odds of making the dance. More importantly, WM alums pride in the school isn’t conditioned or contingent on the College’s athletic prowess. We take pride in competing with true student athletes and doing more with less. We take pride in valuing all members of the athletic Tribe equally! These decisions to cut off members of the Tribe without fighting like heck to keep them runs counter to our values and culture.

As for football, it’s my understanding we offer the full compliment of scholarships and our facilities have been brought up to par or better with our FCS peers. Again, I fail to see where pouring additional money into football brings us an appreciable competitive advantage. Realistically, we will live or die with our ability to find and recruit quality players that can handle WM academically. That has always been both the draw and the hurdle and not one money alone can solve. Even if we won an FCS title, I don’t see that greatly increasing applications to W&M. The types of students that apply to W&M will continue to be drawn to the school wether or not we win an FCS title or go dancing.

It’s ridiculous for WM to justify these cuts using a playbook designed for lesser known regional schools with midling academics to increase their brand, donations and enrollment. We are not JMU or ODU. It shows a complete lack of understanding of our supporters, students, and alumni.

I think you are spot on in terms of our college brand. People who know of us do so because of either our rank as second oldest college or simply the academics in general. People who are interested in sending their kid to a great liberal arts college aren't going to do so because we won a playoff game in the FCS tournament or even won a national title. Nobody, and I mean nobody cares about FCS (except for JMU).
As for basketball, we are an eternity away from being a school like Gonzaga (a good comparable IMO). Mark Few has been there 31 years with the last 21 as a head coach. Similar student body and not quite as good as us academically. Reminds me of what Laycock or Al Albert did given what they had to work with.

I personally would like to see us have a real medical school and advanced research facilities to put us on par with UVA before we fool ourselves into thinking we can be a football or basketball powerhouse. I'm a huge fan of both and go way back, but at some point we need to reflect on who we really are and how we got here.

Are our famous alumni Presidents, business leaders, doctors, and military leaders or pro football and basketball players? BTW the former is where all of the donations come from. Some just happened to play sports here. Many for those sports on the chopping block and others that were cut long ago.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Tank55 - 10-13-2020 05:17 PM

(10-13-2020 04:44 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  As for the argument that W&M needs improve its brand through greater success in revenue sports, I think this motivation is a poor fit for the culture of the College. It also misses the point that W&M is already a nationally recognized brand in academic circles, where it matters.

That's an interesting perspective. I sort of feel like it's not academic circles that matter, but business circles. When I go to apply for a job, I want my degree to carry some weight. Out here in Texas, the only people who have heard of William & Mary are from the East Coast. In that sense, it's definitely still a regional school.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - nj alum - 10-13-2020 05:26 PM

I stopped reading the New York Times decades ago. Not going to start now.

When I did read the New York Times, it wasn’t for the sports. Not going to start now.

If the New York Times makes a suggestion, I’m pretty much taking the opposite view 99% of the time.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - Florida tribe fan - 10-13-2020 07:37 PM

(10-13-2020 03:55 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  Here's an interesting article that specifically mentions W&M. The author argues that cutting varsity teams is actually a good thing because it allows those teams to shift to club status, where more students are able to participate and the teams aren't burdened by NCAA rules. Food for thought.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/sports/college-sports-cuts.html

The author also notes a point that I don't think has been mentioned much in this discussion. At the Division I level, football and basketball are used as marketing vehicles for the university. If you go back and watch Martin's talk, that's definitely acknowledged in his slide that compares Division I to Division III. That's part of the reason those sports are prioritized. Right or wrong, people pay more attention to them.

Alternatively, schools like W&M could fight to change NCAA rules that burden them and argue for serious enforcement of NCAA rules that competitors are flouting. If only.


RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports - nj alum - 10-13-2020 08:47 PM

If the College doesn’t reinstate the Tribe 7, and listen to those of us who have decried the ineffectiveness of the NCAA for years, and that a new model is needed, maybe the College will listen to its peers:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/majority-of-power-five-schools-favor-breaking-away-to-form-own-division-within-ncaa-survey-shows/

Seriously, the AD didn’t catch whiff of these rumblings and moved ahead anyway?

The rules are going to change sooner than later.