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College Football "Champions League" - schmolik - 08-22-2020 05:50 AM
There has been discussion off and on at CSNBBS about eventually the Power 5 conferences eventually becoming a "Power 2" with the SEC and Big Ten adding the top teams from the Big 12, ACC, and Pac 12. Recently with the Big Ten's decision not to play football this fall, there has been talk about some Big Ten schools not being happy and I even saw one or more proposals of Ohio State, Penn State, and other Big Ten schools joining the SEC!
Once we start having Big Ten schools joining the SEC, we might as well have one big power conference. So why not go full "promotion/relegation" in college football? I once wrote this in men's college basketball. It's from 2011 so the teams are a bit outdated.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/972439-designing-a-dream-conference-built-for-college-basketball
I had a four tier structure with 39 teams total. The top tier of the Schmolik Basketball Conference was the Champions Division which had nine teams: Duke,
North Carolina, Michigan State, Connecticut, Florida, Kentucky, Wisconsin, Maryland. and Syracuse. There were three other tiers of 10 tiers underneath. To make it geographically viable, I kept it only to teams East of the Mississippi so Kansas and Gonzaga weren't included.
So let's apply this to football. Since there isn't as much travel in football as there is in basketball, I can live with Oklahoma and Texas but the Pac-12 is probably too far (would Ohio State and Alabama want to be in a conference with Oregon?) Then we have to figure out the criteria. I used NCAA Tournament to choose the basketball teams. You can't do it for football because the Playoff is four teams. You could use records but they could be padded by FCS opponents or hurt by teams playing better teams. The same could be true if you use bowl records or bowl reputations (is the Outback Bowl better than the Alamo Bowl?) Could we use athletic department revenue? How about fan attendance? TV ratings?
Let's limit the teams to the SEC, Big Ten, ACC (Notre Dame included), and Big 12 (no Pac 12 or G5's).
Who are the top tier?
The no doubt about it's have to start with Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma, and Clemson. The four essentially own their conferences. Alabama and Clemson have won multiple national championships.
I'm obviously biased but I think Penn State has to be in the top tier. They have won a Big Ten title recently and are always in the Big Ten race. They have the second largest stadium in the country and are one of the most popular TV draws. They've played in either a New Year's Six bowl or the Citrus Bowl four straight years. Also, if they aren't in the top tier, there's no Northeast presence in the top tier (of course there's no West Coast presence in the top tier but I don't care).
If we're looking at the Big Ten, Wisconsin has the second best Big Ten record over the last six seasons since Maryland and Rutgers joined (41-11) followed by Michigan (35-17) and Penn State (34-18). Michigan has the largest stadium in the country and better TV ratings than PSU so they should be in. If you go by play on the field, Wisconsin deserves to be in but in terms of marketability you go with Michigan and Penn State before Wisconsin.
In the SEC, LSU is the reigning national champion. Georgia is #2 in the SEC in the last eight years since Texas A&M and Missouri joined (48-16), followed by LSU (44-20) and Florida (41-23). Georgia and LSU have to be included in the top 10. Florida is also a strong choice as it would be hard to exclude the state of Florida and they're a stronger choice than Florida State which has fallen off the map in the ACC (29-19 in the ACC).
Finally Texas and Notre Dame are in the conversation. Notre Dame made the Playoff in the 2018/19 season. Texas hasn't been good at all in the Big 12 (41-31 since current Big 12 formation) but they are one of the biggest athetic/football programs in the country.
North: Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Clemson (sorry, someone's gotta be in the North)
South: Alabama, Georgia, LSU, Florida, Oklahoma, Texas
If I had to cut to 10, I would probably cut Wisconsin and then most likely Texas although maybe Florida. If I restricted it to teams East of the Mississippi like I did with basketball, then Oklahoma and Texas get cut and it's the best of the Big Ten, SEC, and ACC (including Notre Dame).
We can then figure out the next tiers.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - goofus - 08-22-2020 06:42 AM
If you are basing this on recent success in the last decade, I am not sure how you include Michigan or Texas.
Michigan simply has not won any of the big games it needed to win to be considered elite. It has not even 1 appearance in the Big Ten CCG and its bowl record not so great. Michigan's record since MD and Rut is closer to Iowa than it is to Wisconsin, and nobody is suggesting Iowa should be in the conversation. But at least Iowa has 1 division championship, and is 5-2 against Michigan in their last 7 games against each other. Michigan needs to focus on beating the Iowa's of the world before anybody considers them to be elite.
On the other hand, it might be worth considering schools like Oregon, Auburn, and FSU. Their records have been inconsistent, but they have made it to national championship games, or even won some national championships in the last decade.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - quo vadis - 08-22-2020 07:53 AM
(08-22-2020 06:42 AM)goofus Wrote: If you are basing this on recent success in the last decade, I am not sure how you include Michigan or Texas.
... which of course negates the possibility of what the OP is proposing, since Michigan and Texas are two of the top 10 brands, and no top-shelf league would ever be formed without them.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - Fighting Muskie - 08-22-2020 08:17 AM
P/R is a nonstarter in American sports.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - ken d - 08-22-2020 09:59 AM
Basically, you are just ranking the top football brands. But you would never want to put them all in a single conference, and I doubt if any of those schools would want to be in such a conference.
Whatever noises schools like Ohio State and Penn State may make to express disagreement with the B1G over how to deal with a once in a century pandemic, they are not going to make conference affiliation decisions based on such a short term issue. IMO, any attempt to put together a league / conference / division will have to start with the premise that any B1G or SEC school that wants to be part of it will be included. And the only one of those 28 schools that I think would even consider taking a pass would be Vanderbilt.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - bullet - 08-22-2020 11:27 AM
Relegation misses the whole reason college football is popular. Its traditions and rivalries. Indiana-Purdue matters as much to their fans as Michigan-Ohio St. Its more than Red Sox-Yankees or Celtics-Lakers.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - CardinalJim - 08-22-2020 11:34 AM
RE: College Football "Champions League" - ken d - 08-22-2020 12:52 PM
(08-22-2020 11:34 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:
That guy has a real future in the entertainment biz. Good stuff! Thanks for sharing.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - CardinalJim - 08-22-2020 01:06 PM
(08-22-2020 08:17 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: P/R is a nonstarter in American sports.
Sad but true...
I look at all these terrible MLS teams, for instance, FC Cincinnati. They can barely compete at the top level in European Football. Just an awful organization.
Then you consider my home side, LouCity FC, we’ve played in three consecutive USL Cup Championships and won two. We are as close as there is to a soccer power in the US.
If promotion and relegation existed in the US, we would be winning MLS championships.
College football could certainly use relegation. Can you imagine Liverpool or Man United going 0-38 and remaining in the Premier League?
That’s what it means when Quality teams like Cincinnati watch Michigan lose to Ohio State again...
As a fan of college football I believe if Cincinnati got to play Ohio State 16 straight years, 8 of those games at home, I‘m guessing the Bearcats could do better than 1-15.
That’s why promotion and relegation will never work in the states. College football isn’t about being competitive. College football is only about money.
College football is one of the most racist operations in the world. Some of the most successful universities were the last to integrate. Easy to win a bunch of games at white bread U somewhere in the BFE SEC when more than half the talent in the country isn’t allowed to play because of the color of their skin.
Only 13 African American Head coaches in college football while 57% of the players are.
No the rich white folks will never allow the poor city schools like Memphis and Cincinnati to replace their less competitive programs in leagues like The Big Ten and SEC. No matter how much it would improve college football.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - schmolik - 08-22-2020 01:23 PM
(08-22-2020 01:06 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:(08-22-2020 08:17 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: P/R is a nonstarter in American sports.
Sad but true...
I look at all these terrible MLS teams, for instance, FC Cincinnati. They can barely compete at the top level in European Football. Just an awful organization.
Then you consider my home side, LouCity FC, we’ve played in three consecutive USL Cup Championships and won two. We are as close as there is to a soccer power in the US.
If promotion and relegation existed in the US, we would be winning MLS championships.
College football could certainly use relegation. Can you imagine Liverpool or Man United going 0-38 and remaining in the Premier League?
That’s what it means when Quality teams like Cincinnati watch Michigan lose to Ohio State again...
As a fan of college football I believe if Cincinnati got to play Ohio State 16 straight years, 8 of those games at home, I‘m guessing the Bearcats could do better than 1-15.
That’s why promotion and relegation will never work in the states. College football isn’t about being competitive. College football is only about money.
College football is one of the most racist operations in the world. Some of the most successful universities were the last to integrate. Easy to win a bunch of games at white bread U somewhere in the BFE SEC when more than half the talent in the country isn’t allowed to play because of the color of their skin.
Only 13 African American Head coaches in college football while 57% of the players are.
No the rich white folks will never allow the poor city schools like Memphis and Cincinnati to replace their less competitive programs in leagues like The Big Ten and SEC. No matter how much it would improve college football.
You think I don't know promotion/relegation isn't realistic? Then again 90% of CSNBBS realignment plans are unrealistic. So why the need to rain on my parade as opposed to others? Is this plan any more unrealistic than Ohio State joining the SEC or the SEC and Big Ten merging?
RE: College Football "Champions League" - goofus - 08-22-2020 04:03 PM
(08-22-2020 07:53 AM)quo vadis Wrote:(08-22-2020 06:42 AM)goofus Wrote: If you are basing this on recent success in the last decade, I am not sure how you include Michigan or Texas.
... which of course negates the possibility of what the OP is proposing, since Michigan and Texas are two of the top 10 brands, and no top-shelf league would ever be formed without them.
In which case, I am completely confused what the OP is proposing and what he is basing it on. Why spend so much time looking up records from the last 6 to 8 years, only to ignore them when making a final decision? Why call it the champions league if some of the teams chosen don't have as much as one division title in the last decade.
Picking Michigan over Wisconsin was a joke.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - CardinalJim - 08-22-2020 06:39 PM
Listed below are the dates of the last championship for this Champions League.....
Penn State 1986, Ohio State 2014, Michigan 1997, Wisconsin 1942, Notre Dame 1988, Clemson 2018,
Alabama 2017, Georgia 1980, LSU 2019, Florida 2008, Oklahoma 2000 , Texas 2005
How many years do you have to go without a title before you are no longer considered a champion?
Wisconsin almost 80 years
Georgia 40 years?
Penn State 34 years?
Miami has won 4 titles. The last one in 2001
Florida State has won 3 titles. The last one 7 years ago.
And neither of these programs were included?
RE: College Football "Champions League" - schmolik - 08-22-2020 07:07 PM
(08-22-2020 06:39 PM)CardinalJim Wrote: Listed below are the dates of the last championship for this Champions League.....
Penn State 1986, Ohio State 2014, Michigan 1997, Wisconsin 1942, Notre Dame 1988, Clemson 2018,
Alabama 2017, Georgia 1980, LSU 2019, Florida 2008, Oklahoma 2000 , Texas 2005
How many years do you have to go without a title before you are no longer considered a champion?
Wisconsin almost 80 years
Georgia 40 years?
Penn State 34 years?
Miami has won 4 titles. The last one in 2001
Florida State has won 3 titles. The last one 7 years ago.
And neither of these programs were included?
Well we probably need a better name for this league/conference then. When I did the men's college basketball one, seven of the nine had won a national championship between 2000 and 2011 and one of the two that didn't was Kentucky who won in 1996 and 1998. Not as many teams have won football national championships recently.
Also, they just expanded to four teams in 2014. How many times in the men's basketball tournament has a team not seeded #1 won it all? Sure, a #1 seed wins it most of the time but there have been a few non #1 seeds that have. If it were football, they don't win. Before then it was just two teams and Penn State should have won the national championship in 1994 (screw Nebraska) but didn't get a chance because back then even #2 meant nothing (or it didn't that year, in 1997 when NEBRASKA was #2, no problem). If we had a 4 team playoff every year since the 1980's we'd have a totally different group of champions. Florida State and Miami have won more championships recently than Georgia and Penn State. Does anyone think the two of them are anywhere near the same caliber as Georgia and Penn State now? If we want the "best" college football teams, we're not taking Florida State and Miami.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - goofus - 08-22-2020 07:28 PM
(08-22-2020 06:39 PM)CardinalJim Wrote: Listed below are the dates of the last championship for this Champions League.....
Penn State 1986, Ohio State 2014, Michigan 1997, Wisconsin 1942, Notre Dame 1988, Clemson 2018,
Alabama 2017, Georgia 1980, LSU 2019, Florida 2008, Oklahoma 2000 , Texas 2005
How many years do you have to go without a title before you are no longer considered a champion?
Wisconsin almost 80 years
Georgia 40 years?
Penn State 34 years?
Miami has won 4 titles. The last one in 2001
Florida State has won 3 titles. The last one 7 years ago.
And neither of these programs were included?
Oh, did champions mean national championships? I thought it just meant champions of something, like a conference or at least a division. Guess I got that wrong.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - Crayton - 08-23-2020 08:09 AM
The closest we’ve gotten IRL is when the PAC-12 and Big Ten discussed a scheduling alliance, something that may have featured top vs. top; not very close. If the Big 12 merges with the PAC-12 (or ACC?) it may be a considered tool to keep all 22 teams together.
Wins/Losses can’t be the only metric. “Blue Bloods” need to be protected de jure or through attendance barriers from being relegated. Room on the schedule needs to be kept open for rivalries that are split too.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - CliftonAve - 08-23-2020 08:17 AM
(08-22-2020 01:06 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:(08-22-2020 08:17 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: P/R is a nonstarter in American sports.
Sad but true...
I look at all these terrible MLS teams, for instance, FC Cincinnati. They can barely compete at the top level in European Football. Just an awful organization.
Then you consider my home side, LouCity FC, we’ve played in three consecutive USL Cup Championships and won two. We are as close as there is to a soccer power in the US.
If promotion and relegation existed in the US, we would be winning MLS championships.
College football could certainly use relegation. Can you imagine Liverpool or Man United going 0-38 and remaining in the Premier League?
That’s what it means when Quality teams like Cincinnati watch Michigan lose to Ohio State again...
As a fan of college football I believe if Cincinnati got to play Ohio State 16 straight years, 8 of those games at home, I‘m guessing the Bearcats could do better than 1-15.
That’s why promotion and relegation will never work in the states. College football isn’t about being competitive. College football is only about money.
College football is one of the most racist operations in the world. Some of the most successful universities were the last to integrate. Easy to win a bunch of games at white bread U somewhere in the BFE SEC when more than half the talent in the country isn’t allowed to play because of the color of their skin.
Only 13 African American Head coaches in college football while 57% of the players are.
No the rich white folks will never allow the poor city schools like Memphis and Cincinnati to replace their less competitive programs in leagues like The Big Ten and SEC. No matter how much it would improve college football.
Yup. The kicker for UC is that we are associated as a school with a large black student body when it only represents about 9% of nearly 47,000 students. People assume because of our basketball team that the number is much larger. I once had someone ask me what it was like to go to a university where the majority of students are black.
I'm pretty sure UC would fare better than the 12-75 and 14-63 all-time that Indiana and Northwestern has done against the Buckeyes. The kicker is we aren't asking to replace anyone-- we just want in. However, when the Big12 was exploring adding teams a little two years we were considered too "urban" by the fans on the message boards.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - schmolik - 07-15-2022 06:16 AM
Here's a version I found with 22!! teams. You have to scroll down to the very bottom to find the list as the writer goes through each P5 school and says "YES" or "NO" to each one as if we have to figure out whether or not Rutgers and Vanderbilt belong in this conference.
https://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/college-football-super-conference-17285854.php
RE: College Football "Champions League" - GarnetAndBlue - 07-15-2022 08:20 AM
(08-22-2020 07:07 PM)schmolik Wrote:(08-22-2020 06:39 PM)CardinalJim Wrote: Listed below are the dates of the last championship for this Champions League.....
Penn State 1986, Ohio State 2014, Michigan 1997, Wisconsin 1942, Notre Dame 1988, Clemson 2018,
Alabama 2017, Georgia 1980, LSU 2019, Florida 2008, Oklahoma 2000 , Texas 2005
How many years do you have to go without a title before you are no longer considered a champion?
Wisconsin almost 80 years
Georgia 40 years?
Penn State 34 years?
Miami has won 4 titles. The last one in 2001
Florida State has won 3 titles. The last one 7 years ago.
And neither of these programs were included?
Well we probably need a better name for this league/conference then. When I did the men's college basketball one, seven of the nine had won a national championship between 2000 and 2011 and one of the two that didn't was Kentucky who won in 1996 and 1998. Not as many teams have won football national championships recently.
Also, they just expanded to four teams in 2014. How many times in the men's basketball tournament has a team not seeded #1 won it all? Sure, a #1 seed wins it most of the time but there have been a few non #1 seeds that have. If it were football, they don't win. Before then it was just two teams and Penn State should have won the national championship in 1994 (screw Nebraska) but didn't get a chance because back then even #2 meant nothing (or it didn't that year, in 1997 when NEBRASKA was #2, no problem). If we had a 4 team playoff every year since the 1980's we'd have a totally different group of champions. Florida State and Miami have won more championships recently than Georgia and Penn State. Does anyone think the two of them are anywhere near the same caliber as Georgia and Penn State now? If we want the "best" college football teams, we're not taking Florida State and Miami.
I sure do. On equal footing, I absolutely think FSU would out-perform PSU over the long haul. And hold even with UGA. The B1G/SEC vs ACC disparity is not equal footing.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - jacksfan29! - 07-15-2022 09:26 AM
(08-22-2020 08:17 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: P/R is a nonstarter in American sports.
Which is too bad. It is why you have teams like Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Kansas, CAL, CU, etc. pulling in cash from being worthless every single year. Put promotion/relegation in, suddenly those schools will feel enough heat to improve or be sent down.
RE: College Football "Champions League" - CardinalJim - 07-15-2022 11:27 AM
Dan Patrick was talking about not creating a Champions League but forcing each of the P5 Champs to play the other 4 champions each season 2 on the road and 2 at home. He said imagine Alabama going to play Ohio State in Columbus.
These would be regular season games.
Reminds me of the Elite 8 format in basketball.
I know it won’t happen but it would be great to see.