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+---- Thread: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... (/thread-904099.html)
If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Fighting Muskie - 08-06-2020 08:35 PM
Where are they now?
Do they get into the Big 12 in 1996?
Or do they get in in 2012?
What does a better SMU mean for Baylor, TCU, Houston, and Rice?
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Sicembear11 - 08-06-2020 08:59 PM
(08-06-2020 08:35 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: Where are they now?
Do they get into the Big 12 in 1996?
Or do they get in in 2012?
What does a better SMU mean for Baylor, TCU, Houston, and Rice?
Baylor still gets the call in ‘96. It’s simply a size and attendance issue. Baylor was the only school of that group that consistently drew well and was the largest of the group by far. In terms of football success, they finished just behind A&M, Texas, and Arkansas for conference championships.
The better question is if a non-death penalty SMU keeps the SWC strong enough to hold onto Arkansas, or if the conference just merges with the Big 8 to make a Big 16.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Renandpat - 08-06-2020 09:16 PM
(08-06-2020 08:35 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: Where are they now?
Do they get into the Big 12 in 1996?
Or do they get in in 2012?
What does a better SMU mean for Baylor, TCU, Houston, and Rice?
They are where they are...outside a Power 5.
No.
No.
How could they be better when they were given the Death Penalty while they were already NCAA probation.
As for TCU, they were prepared for a SMU-eqsue penalty for "Lack of control", but the NCAA spared them. TCU had 70+ violations from 1979-85 as they were paying players like Kenneth Davis and Darron Turner at a rate higher than even SMU.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Big Frog II - 08-06-2020 09:26 PM
(08-06-2020 09:16 PM)Renandpat Wrote:We had never been on probation before, and our own coach turned us in. Hardly the same thing as SMU who had been in the doghouse over and over and over.(08-06-2020 08:35 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: Where are they now?
Do they get into the Big 12 in 1996?
Or do they get in in 2012?
What does a better SMU mean for Baylor, TCU, Houston, and Rice?
They are where they are...outside a Power 5.
No.
No.
How could they be better when they were given the Death Penalty while they were already NCAA probation.
As for TCU, they were prepared for a SMU-eqsue penalty for "Lack of control", but the NCAA spared them. TCU had 70+ violations from 1979-85 as they were paying players like Kenneth Davis and Darron Turner at a rate higher than even SMU.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - bullet - 08-06-2020 09:28 PM
(08-06-2020 08:59 PM)Sicembear11 Wrote:(08-06-2020 08:35 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: Where are they now?
Do they get into the Big 12 in 1996?
Or do they get in in 2012?
What does a better SMU mean for Baylor, TCU, Houston, and Rice?
Baylor still gets the call in ‘96. It’s simply a size and attendance issue. Baylor was the only school of that group that consistently drew well and was the largest of the group by far. In terms of football success, they finished just behind A&M, Texas, and Arkansas for conference championships.
The better question is if a non-death penalty SMU keeps the SWC strong enough to hold onto Arkansas, or if the conference just merges with the Big 8 to make a Big 16.
Or do Oklahoma, Oklahoma St., Kansas and Nebraska join the SWC?
The death penalty hurt every program.
The SWC as it was constituted was doomed. But it didn't have to end in the Big 12.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - UTEPDallas - 08-06-2020 09:48 PM
SMU still is left out and goes to the WAC-16 as the Eastern equivalent to BYU. Maybe a strong SMU football program attracts Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, Southern Miss and Tulane to the new SWC instead of forming C-USA. Maybe Tulsa gets invited as well. As a result, the WAC-16 expansion never happens and only UNLV and San Jose State get invited to the “WAC-12” or just UNLV gets invited and stay at 11 like the Big Ten was for almost 20 years.
Politics is the reason why Baylor (Gov Ann Richards) and Texas Tech (Lt Gov Bob Bullock) made the cut. SMU didn’t have the political connections when the decision was made in 1994. Now if the Big XII expansion had taken in after January 1995 once George W Bush became governor then SMU’s chances are better (First Lady Laura Bush is a SMU grad and it’s the main reason the W Presidential Library is at SMU).
It was SMU that convinced TCU to apply to C-USA as a package deal. TCU got invited and SMU was left in the new WAC with newcomers Boise State, Louisiana Tech and Nevada.
The better question is, would C-USA 1.0 taken SMU instead of TCU? Or taken both to go to 12 and have a CCG? C-USA between 2001 and 2005 was an 11 team league.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Fighting Muskie - 08-07-2020 09:04 AM
(08-06-2020 09:48 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote: SMU still is left out and goes to the WAC-16 as the Eastern equivalent to BYU. Maybe a strong SMU football program attracts Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, Southern Miss and Tulane to the new SWC instead of forming C-USA. Maybe Tulsa gets invited as well. As a result, the WAC-16 expansion never happens and only UNLV and San Jose State get invited to the “WAC-12” or just UNLV gets invited and stay at 11 like the Big Ten was for almost 20 years.
Politics is the reason why Baylor (Gov Ann Richards) and Texas Tech (Lt Gov Bob Bullock) made the cut. SMU didn’t have the political connections when the decision was made in 1994. Now if the Big XII expansion had taken in after January 1995 once George W Bush became governor then SMU’s chances are better (First Lady Laura Bush is a SMU grad and it’s the main reason the W Presidential Library is at SMU).
It was SMU that convinced TCU to apply to C-USA as a package deal. TCU got invited and SMU was left in the new WAC with newcomers Boise State, Louisiana Tech and Nevada.
The better question is, would C-USA 1.0 taken SMU instead of TCU? Or taken both to go to 12 and have a CCG? C-USA between 2001 and 2005 was an 11 team league.
I didn’t realize that both SMU and TCU were looking at C-USA in 2001.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Michael in Raleigh - 08-07-2020 09:10 AM
I wonder why the SWC left-behinders (Houston, TCU, Rice, SMU) didn't try to rebuild their league with, say, Louisville, Cincinnati, Tulsa, Tulane, and one or two others instead of going off to the WAC and C-USA.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Fighting Muskie - 08-07-2020 09:12 AM
A full Big 8/SWC merger sounds like a neat idea but the net result is a shared tv contract and one seat in the big bowl games instead of 2.
If SMU dodges the death penalty and is still a strong program I think Arkansas still gets lured away but perhaps there’s no need for a merger with the Big 8 in 1996.
My suspicion is that somewhere down the road the SWC still breaks up.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Fighting Muskie - 08-07-2020 09:19 AM
(08-07-2020 09:10 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote: I wonder why the SWC left-behinders (Houston, TCU, Rice, SMU) didn't try to rebuild their league with, say, Louisville, Cincinnati, Tulsa, Tulane, and one or two others instead of going off to the WAC and C-USA.
A question I’ve also pondered. I think it boils down to a few things:
1. Mutual distrust among the 4 SWC schools—they all blamed each other for snitching to the NCAA on their conference mates in the 1980s
2. L’ville, Memphis, and Cincinnati were still primarily focused on basketball
3. The SWC 4 weren’t strong enough to attract WAC or the stronger independents into their league.
Realistically, leading up to the 1996 season had they decided to stay together they probably could have gotten Tulsa and UTEP to join. Maybe USM and maybe Tulane. That’s not a terribly strong conference.
I think at best they could have gotten Memphis, L’ville, and Cincinnati as football affiliates.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - bullet - 08-07-2020 10:16 AM
(08-07-2020 09:10 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote: I wonder why the SWC left-behinders (Houston, TCU, Rice, SMU) didn't try to rebuild their league with, say, Louisville, Cincinnati, Tulsa, Tulane, and one or two others instead of going off to the WAC and C-USA.
Houston wasn't interested.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - quo vadis - 08-07-2020 10:22 AM
(08-06-2020 09:28 PM)bullet Wrote:(08-06-2020 08:59 PM)Sicembear11 Wrote:(08-06-2020 08:35 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: Where are they now?
Do they get into the Big 12 in 1996?
Or do they get in in 2012?
What does a better SMU mean for Baylor, TCU, Houston, and Rice?
Baylor still gets the call in ‘96. It’s simply a size and attendance issue. Baylor was the only school of that group that consistently drew well and was the largest of the group by far. In terms of football success, they finished just behind A&M, Texas, and Arkansas for conference championships.
The better question is if a non-death penalty SMU keeps the SWC strong enough to hold onto Arkansas, or if the conference just merges with the Big 8 to make a Big 16.
Or do Oklahoma, Oklahoma St., Kansas and Nebraska join the SWC?
The death penalty hurt every program.
The SWC as it was constituted was doomed. But it didn't have to end in the Big 12.
Let's face it - even though the Big 12 was technically the dissolution of the SWC and an absorption of four of its members into the Big 8, in reality, the Big 12 ended up being the continuity of the SWC and it was the Big 8, as distinct cultural entity, that died in 1995. The Big 12 today has all the spirit and feel of the SWC. The absorber ended up being absorbed.
That's what happens when you try to swallow more than you can chew (Texas).
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Captain Bearcat - 08-07-2020 10:25 AM
(08-07-2020 10:22 AM)quo vadis Wrote:(08-06-2020 09:28 PM)bullet Wrote:(08-06-2020 08:59 PM)Sicembear11 Wrote:(08-06-2020 08:35 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: Where are they now?
Do they get into the Big 12 in 1996?
Or do they get in in 2012?
What does a better SMU mean for Baylor, TCU, Houston, and Rice?
Baylor still gets the call in ‘96. It’s simply a size and attendance issue. Baylor was the only school of that group that consistently drew well and was the largest of the group by far. In terms of football success, they finished just behind A&M, Texas, and Arkansas for conference championships.
The better question is if a non-death penalty SMU keeps the SWC strong enough to hold onto Arkansas, or if the conference just merges with the Big 8 to make a Big 16.
Or do Oklahoma, Oklahoma St., Kansas and Nebraska join the SWC?
The death penalty hurt every program.
The SWC as it was constituted was doomed. But it didn't have to end in the Big 12.
Let's face it - even though the Big 12 was technically the dissolution of the SWC and an absorption of four of its members into the Big 8, in reality, the Big 12 ended up being the continuity of the SWC and it was the Big 8, as distinct cultural entity, that died in 1995. The Big 12 today has all the spirit and feel of the SWC. The absorber ended up being absorbed.
That's what happens when you try to swallow more than you can chew (Texas).
Reminds me of the old saying that everyone who conquered China ended up becoming Chinese.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Fighting Muskie - 08-07-2020 10:39 AM
(08-07-2020 10:22 AM)quo vadis Wrote:(08-06-2020 09:28 PM)bullet Wrote:(08-06-2020 08:59 PM)Sicembear11 Wrote:(08-06-2020 08:35 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: Where are they now?
Do they get into the Big 12 in 1996?
Or do they get in in 2012?
What does a better SMU mean for Baylor, TCU, Houston, and Rice?
Baylor still gets the call in ‘96. It’s simply a size and attendance issue. Baylor was the only school of that group that consistently drew well and was the largest of the group by far. In terms of football success, they finished just behind A&M, Texas, and Arkansas for conference championships.
The better question is if a non-death penalty SMU keeps the SWC strong enough to hold onto Arkansas, or if the conference just merges with the Big 8 to make a Big 16.
Or do Oklahoma, Oklahoma St., Kansas and Nebraska join the SWC?
The death penalty hurt every program.
The SWC as it was constituted was doomed. But it didn't have to end in the Big 12.
Let's face it - even though the Big 12 was technically the dissolution of the SWC and an absorption of four of its members into the Big 8, in reality, the Big 12 ended up being the continuity of the SWC and it was the Big 8, as distinct cultural entity, that died in 1995. The Big 12 today has all the spirit and feel of the SWC. The absorber ended up being absorbed.
That's what happens when you try to swallow more than you can chew (Texas).
When the merger happened the Oklahoma schools took an abrupt cultural turn towards the SWC and Colorado’s culture and mentality became “California Dreamin’”.
Almost from day 1 it felt like 6 SWC schools, 5 Big 8 schools, and 1 PAC 10 wanna be.
Fast forward to today and it’s:
6 SWC schools, 3 Big 8 schools, and a displaced Big East school.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - Fighting Muskie - 08-07-2020 10:45 AM
You gotta wander what the SWC would have been like had the Oklahoma schools not left in the 20s.
Maybe they’re an 11 member conference in the early 90s looking for a 12th to play a CCG. Maybe that 12th ends up being LSU.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - whittx - 08-07-2020 11:01 AM
(08-06-2020 08:59 PM)Sicembear11 Wrote:(08-06-2020 08:35 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: Where are they now?
Do they get into the Big 12 in 1996?
Or do they get in in 2012?
What does a better SMU mean for Baylor, TCU, Houston, and Rice?
Baylor still gets the call in ‘96. It’s simply a size and attendance issue. Baylor was the only school of that group that consistently drew well and was the largest of the group by far. In terms of football success, they finished just behind A&M, Texas, and Arkansas for conference championships.
The better question is if a non-death penalty SMU keeps the SWC strong enough to hold onto Arkansas, or if the conference just merges with the Big 8 to make a Big 16.
But other than UT & A&M, Baylor was offering $2 tickets with the purchase of a Wendy's combo to games.
RE: If SMU doesn’t get the death penalty... - DFW HOYA - 08-07-2020 09:51 PM
If SMU is still drawing 49K a game at Texas Stadium in the 1990's, they get the Big 12 bid over Baylor, and TCU never leaves the Mountain West.