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+----- Thread: Investment in men’s hoops??? (/thread-896707.html)
Investment in men’s hoops??? - Hart Foundation - 03-20-2020 09:59 PM
Something that Bourne and Alger have to answer for...
JMU has the 61st largest athletics budget in the country and #1 of any mid-major nationally.
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances
If you look at schools ranked 55 to 65 as financial peers of JMU, how can they justify what JMU is paying its basketball coaches compared to others?
55 Cincinnati $1.5 million
56 Air Force $525k plus incentives - just got fired
57 San Diego State $855k plus incentives
58 Memphis $1.6 million
59 Houston $3 million
60 Colorado State $750k
61 JMU ?
62 Fresno State $550k plus $240k bonus
63 UNLV $1.1 million
64 Boise State $725k plus incentives
65 UMass $750k
If you look at JMU vs CAA schools, they crush them all in total athletics spending, but do not spend the most for the men’s basketball coach.
Do other hoops programs want to win more than JMU?
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - KickItToScotty - 03-20-2020 10:00 PM
You can go ahead and replace that question mark, it's $450k.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - Top Dawg - 03-21-2020 07:57 AM
(03-20-2020 09:59 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote: Something that Bourne and Alger have to answer for...What do all of those other schools pay their football coaches? I thought JMUs athletic budget was so high because we are fully funding all sports.
JMU has the 61st largest athletics budget in the country and #1 of any mid-major nationally.
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances
If you look at schools ranked 55 to 65 as financial peers of JMU, how can they justify what JMU is paying its basketball coaches compared to others?
55 Cincinnati $1.5 million
56 Air Force $525k plus incentives - just got fired
57 San Diego State $855k plus incentives
58 Memphis $1.6 million
59 Houston $3 million
60 Colorado State $750k
61 JMU ?
62 Fresno State $550k plus $240k bonus
63 UNLV $1.1 million
64 Boise State $725k plus incentives
65 UMass $750k
If you look at JMU vs CAA schools, they crush them all in total athletics spending, but do not spend the most for the men’s basketball coach.
Do other hoops programs want to win more than JMU?
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - NJDuke97 - 03-21-2020 08:00 AM
This is aspirational - JMU has made progress with their football head coach and assistant coach salaries as they have grown the football program and facilities. The same will happen for basketball. It will just happen over a period of time. Success will help push us along.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - JMU08 - 03-21-2020 08:15 AM
Why do people keep bringing up athletic budgets that aren't standardized? Until these are all apples to apples it doesn't hold any weight. Not saying we don't spend plenty or couldn't pay more for a coach, but the budget argument doesn't mean anything unless you have the actual breakdowns.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - HyperDuke - 03-21-2020 08:26 AM
(03-21-2020 07:57 AM)Top Dawg Wrote:(03-20-2020 09:59 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote: Something that Bourne and Alger have to answer for...What do all of those other schools pay their football coaches? I thought JMUs athletic budget was so high because we are fully funding all sports.
JMU has the 61st largest athletics budget in the country and #1 of any mid-major nationally.
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances
If you look at schools ranked 55 to 65 as financial peers of JMU, how can they justify what JMU is paying its basketball coaches compared to others?
55 Cincinnati $1.5 million
56 Air Force $525k plus incentives - just got fired
57 San Diego State $855k plus incentives
58 Memphis $1.6 million
59 Houston $3 million
60 Colorado State $750k
61 JMU ?
62 Fresno State $550k plus $240k bonus
63 UNLV $1.1 million
64 Boise State $725k plus incentives
65 UMass $750k
If you look at JMU vs CAA schools, they crush them all in total athletics spending, but do not spend the most for the men’s basketball coach.
Do other hoops programs want to win more than JMU?
Hart doesn’t support that equity. He thinks the other sports don’t deserve that $.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - olddawg - 03-21-2020 08:35 AM
Interesting article outlining UAB's basketball coaching search and the mindset that went into it. They are trying to position themselves for a possible AAC invite. Sound familiar??
The key paragraphs:
It’s a basketball school at its heart, and UAB athletics director Mark Ingram, despite what his noisy detractors have claimed, has made great strides on the Southside in recent years to make UAB athletics more attractive overall. The hope is to be in position for a play at the American Athletic Conference when conference realignment comes around.
A big basketball hire for the Blazers would do two things for perception at UAB. One, it would raise interest locally, which is the most important thing right now. Secondly, though, it would send a clear signal to the AAC that UAB and the University of Alabama Board of Trustees are working in concert together to strengthen the Blazers
https://www.al.com/sports/2020/03/uab-samford-in-position-to-remake-birmingham-hoops.html
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - Dukester - 03-21-2020 08:45 AM
(03-20-2020 10:00 PM)KickItToScotty Wrote: You can go ahead and replace that question mark, it's $450k.
And locked in for 6 years.
Take a look at that chart in 4 years. It will look even more out of wack.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - Dukester - 03-21-2020 08:55 AM
(03-21-2020 08:26 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:(03-21-2020 07:57 AM)Top Dawg Wrote:(03-20-2020 09:59 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote: Something that Bourne and Alger have to answer for...What do all of those other schools pay their football coaches? I thought JMUs athletic budget was so high because we are fully funding all sports.
JMU has the 61st largest athletics budget in the country and #1 of any mid-major nationally.
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances
If you look at schools ranked 55 to 65 as financial peers of JMU, how can they justify what JMU is paying its basketball coaches compared to others?
55 Cincinnati $1.5 million
56 Air Force $525k plus incentives - just got fired
57 San Diego State $855k plus incentives
58 Memphis $1.6 million
59 Houston $3 million
60 Colorado State $750k
61 JMU ?
62 Fresno State $550k plus $240k bonus
63 UNLV $1.1 million
64 Boise State $725k plus incentives
65 UMass $750k
If you look at JMU vs CAA schools, they crush them all in total athletics spending, but do not spend the most for the men’s basketball coach.
Do other hoops programs want to win more than JMU?
Hart doesn’t support that equity. He thinks the other sports don’t deserve that $.
Huh?
Hart is questioning why we out spend other CAA schools for most, if not all sports, except men's basketball?
Simpler question. Why do we outspend every CAA school for football, but not basketball? Why wouldn't we invest in a more proven coach walking into a new arena?
This is not an equity question, it's more a lack of equity for Men's basketball -relatively speaking.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - TXGiant - 03-21-2020 10:48 AM
What I know is that there were different people involved in the process and they were very impressed with Byington and feel like he is a great fit (obviously). The perception that JMU “leadership” is ok with the past run of dismal performance is acceptable is incorrect. I have been, and will remain, in the camp that believes that our path to national prominence (or at least recognition) through athletics is in basketball, not football.
I am encouraged by the focus and support that will be put behind the Men’s program. In the near future, look for an Alpha Dog type program for the basketball team. I will be participating. I encourage those of you who want to see JMU return to “glory” talk to your Duke Club rep and consider joining. I figure instead of complaining and longing for the days of basketball relevance, I can get involved and, hopefully, be part of the solution. We have a near-total rebuild ahead of us. It’s going to take time and money and it will be difficult. However, we have to start somewhere and I am looking forward to the journey. I hope some of you that are concerned with JMU’s investment in the program will step up and put your money where your mouth’s are.
Go Dukes! Stay safe, and healthy.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - Purplehazed - 03-21-2020 11:24 AM
King & Bourne will leave us with great footnall and basketball facilities. I don't see either leading jmu through a conference change no matter the conference.
Does anyone see King and Bourne making a bold conference move?
I fear we miss out on the next and maybe last shift because they are still at jmu or the next excuse is a green AD that actually reports to a "whatever" Alger.
No chance Hart gets a answer on the mbb salary divided by athletic budget question.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - Polish Hammer - 03-21-2020 11:33 AM
(03-21-2020 08:45 AM)Dukester Wrote:Six years seems a bit long to me, isn’t 3-4 more the norm? Works well to have him locked down for 6 years if he does well. And maybe the length also speaks to them having the patience for a total rebuild despite his claim to win right away.(03-20-2020 10:00 PM)KickItToScotty Wrote: You can go ahead and replace that question mark, it's $450k.
And locked in for 6 years.
Take a look at that chart in 4 years. It will look even more out of wack.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - NJDuke97 - 03-21-2020 11:40 AM
The 6 years is just to show commitment and acknowledging that next year they will have a lot of scholarships to replace so it makes sense from a recruiting perspective. If Coach Byington is successful he’ll get an extension mid way through his deal and a raise.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - KickItToScotty - 03-21-2020 12:40 PM
(03-21-2020 11:40 AM)NJDuke97 Wrote: The 6 years is just to show commitment and acknowledging that next year they will have a lot of scholarships to replace so it makes sense from a recruiting perspective. If Coach Byington is successful he’ll get an extension mid way through his deal and a raise.
One thing that makes me lean towards not being so upset if a decent amount of freshmen transfer out is that it would let him get a bigger chunk of his guys more quickly. Yeah we had four juniors, but we also had six freshmen on scholarship. If none leave, none get the boot, and they all turn out to be pretty subpar CAA talent then how hard it is going to be to judge performance by 2022-23? If Hofstra, Northeastern, Charleston are pretty strong and we’re finishing third or fourth and winning a tournament game or two, that gets real tough to say whether we’re wasting more years keeping him around. Then even the next year, maybe we’re around the same position but going “hey it’s a young team with potential.”
I know I’m getting ahead of myself here and we’ll cross that bridge if and when we come to it, but I could see that being an issue so really hope he’s clearly either really great or a total flop a few years from now. Then it’s either all good or clearly time to move on and really step up the salary, I really hope we don’t get in to another Bradyish situation.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - 2Buck - 03-21-2020 12:49 PM
(03-21-2020 08:26 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:(03-21-2020 07:57 AM)Top Dawg Wrote:(03-20-2020 09:59 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote: Something that Bourne and Alger have to answer for...What do all of those other schools pay their football coaches? I thought JMUs athletic budget was so high because we are fully funding all sports.
JMU has the 61st largest athletics budget in the country and #1 of any mid-major nationally.
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances
If you look at schools ranked 55 to 65 as financial peers of JMU, how can they justify what JMU is paying its basketball coaches compared to others?
55 Cincinnati $1.5 million
56 Air Force $525k plus incentives - just got fired
57 San Diego State $855k plus incentives
58 Memphis $1.6 million
59 Houston $3 million
60 Colorado State $750k
61 JMU ?
62 Fresno State $550k plus $240k bonus
63 UNLV $1.1 million
64 Boise State $725k plus incentives
65 UMass $750k
If you look at JMU vs CAA schools, they crush them all in total athletics spending, but do not spend the most for the men’s basketball coach.
Do other hoops programs want to win more than JMU?
Hart doesn’t support that equity. He thinks the other sports don’t deserve that $.
I'm confused by your statement. Are you saying the men's tennis team head coach should be paid the same as the men's basketball coach for the sake of "equity"?
Or are you accusing Hart of thinking women should be paid less than men?
The point (I think) he accurately makes is that if JMU "fully funds" and pays top CAA/mid-major dollar for a men's tennis coach and a softball coach, equity should be paying top CAA/mid-major for a men's basketball coach.
What should NOT happen is all those other sports get top-level funding at the expense of men's basketball. Yet that's the pattern we keep seeing, even to the point of national-level spending on the facility yet still mid/low CAA level coaches salary.
No one is arguing we should be paying Coach B $750k+ a year. The point is were there options in that price range (JTIII) that we chose Coach B over, or equally as bad, we didn't even pursue/consider to being with?
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - Purplehazed - 03-21-2020 01:00 PM
Is there any debate that non revenue sports get max non revenue support that reduces revenue sport support options? We have had posters claiming for years that the AAC is going to invite jmu because jmu has a quidditch national championship.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - 2Buck - 03-21-2020 01:49 PM
(03-21-2020 01:00 PM)Purplehazed Wrote: Is there any debate that non revenue sports get max non revenue support that reduces revenue sport support options? We have had posters claiming for years that the AAC is going to invite jmu because jmu has a quidditch national championship.
You bring up a point that we've constantly tried to drive home- if our leadership were truly cost-sensitive/risk adverse, why would they not invest more in mechanisms with proven higher ROI? There is no single better mechanism than men's basketball. It's success could further fund the other athletics programs and all kinds of academic programs.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - Hart Foundation - 03-21-2020 02:55 PM
(03-21-2020 10:48 AM)TXGiant Wrote: What I know is that there were different people involved in the process and they were very impressed with Byington and feel like he is a great fit (obviously). The perception that JMU “leadership” is ok with the past run of dismal performance is acceptable is incorrect. I have been, and will remain, in the camp that believes that our path to national prominence (or at least recognition) through athletics is in basketball, not football.
I am encouraged by the focus and support that will be put behind the Men’s program. In the near future, look for an Alpha Dog type program for the basketball team. I will be participating. I encourage those of you who want to see JMU return to “glory” talk to your Duke Club rep and consider joining. I figure instead of complaining and longing for the days of basketball relevance, I can get involved and, hopefully, be part of the solution. We have a near-total rebuild ahead of us. It’s going to take time and money and it will be difficult. However, we have to start somewhere and I am looking forward to the journey. I hope some of you that are concerned with JMU’s investment in the program will step up and put your money where your mouth’s are.
Go Dukes! Stay safe, and healthy.
Too late for me Tex. The time to raise money was before this huge basketball hire leading into a once in a lifetime arena grand opening. I will not support Alger or Bourne going forward. They can go find some suckers to give money to an incompetent basketball leadership group. I’ll be waiting for a new prez and a new AD before I consider the alpha dog basketball group.
We all should be asking who made the decisions that put this program in “a near-total rebuild” as you describe it? It is the same people you are suggesting to give more money to.
To be in this situation with a new $100 million arena opening is inexcusable. I know the collegiate world is an insulated environment, but in most environments the well paid decision makers get fired for exhibiting incompetence for this long.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - Longhorn - 03-21-2020 03:08 PM
(03-21-2020 02:55 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote:(03-21-2020 10:48 AM)TXGiant Wrote: What I know is that there were different people involved in the process and they were very impressed with Byington and feel like he is a great fit (obviously). The perception that JMU “leadership” is ok with the past run of dismal performance is acceptable is incorrect. I have been, and will remain, in the camp that believes that our path to national prominence (or at least recognition) through athletics is in basketball, not football.
I am encouraged by the focus and support that will be put behind the Men’s program. In the near future, look for an Alpha Dog type program for the basketball team. I will be participating. I encourage those of you who want to see JMU return to “glory” talk to your Duke Club rep and consider joining. I figure instead of complaining and longing for the days of basketball relevance, I can get involved and, hopefully, be part of the solution. We have a near-total rebuild ahead of us. It’s going to take time and money and it will be difficult. However, we have to start somewhere and I am looking forward to the journey. I hope some of you that are concerned with JMU’s investment in the program will step up and put your money where your mouth’s are.
Go Dukes! Stay safe, and healthy.
Too late for me Tex. The time to raise money was before this huge basketball hire leading into a once in a lifetime arena grand opening. I will not support Alger or Bourne going forward. They can go find some suckers to give money to an incompetent basketball leadership group. I’ll be waiting for a new prez and a new AD before I consider the alpha dog basketball group.
We all should be asking who made the decisions that put this program in “a near-total rebuild” as you describe it? It is the same people you are suggesting to give more money to.
To be in this situation with a new $100 million arena opening is inexcusable. I know the collegiate world is an insulated environment, but in most environments the well paid decision makers get fired for exhibiting incompetence for this long.
You’re disappointed in the state of the MBB program (all JMU fans are), and in particular the poor decision making that led to LR’s hiring. Hindsight is 20-20, and while the decision to hire LR was extremely poor, the same decision makers that hired LR are responsible for getting the new arena built.
I too would have liked to see a “splash” hire...a Forbes or Turner...or even a Richey (for me would have been preferred), but there’s a lot to recommend the potential of the man they settled upon.
I’m cautiously optimistic the decision makers got it right this time.
RE: Investment in men’s hoops??? - Deez Nuts - 03-21-2020 03:11 PM
(03-21-2020 02:55 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote:(03-21-2020 10:48 AM)TXGiant Wrote: What I know is that there were different people involved in the process and they were very impressed with Byington and feel like he is a great fit (obviously). The perception that JMU “leadership” is ok with the past run of dismal performance is acceptable is incorrect. I have been, and will remain, in the camp that believes that our path to national prominence (or at least recognition) through athletics is in basketball, not football.
I am encouraged by the focus and support that will be put behind the Men’s program. In the near future, look for an Alpha Dog type program for the basketball team. I will be participating. I encourage those of you who want to see JMU return to “glory” talk to your Duke Club rep and consider joining. I figure instead of complaining and longing for the days of basketball relevance, I can get involved and, hopefully, be part of the solution. We have a near-total rebuild ahead of us. It’s going to take time and money and it will be difficult. However, we have to start somewhere and I am looking forward to the journey. I hope some of you that are concerned with JMU’s investment in the program will step up and put your money where your mouth’s are.
Go Dukes! Stay safe, and healthy.
Too late for me Tex. The time to raise money was before this huge basketball hire leading into a once in a lifetime arena grand opening. I will not support Alger or Bourne going forward. They can go find some suckers to give money to an incompetent basketball leadership group. I’ll be waiting for a new prez and a new AD before I consider the alpha dog basketball group.
We all should be asking who made the decisions that put this program in “a near-total rebuild” as you describe it? It is the same people you are suggesting to give more money to.
To be in this situation with a new $100 million arena opening is inexcusable. I know the collegiate world is an insulated environment, but in most environments the well paid decision makers get fired for exhibiting incompetence for this long.
Good to know you're taking your toys and going home. If the program turns the corner under coach B will you admit you were wrong? Probably not.