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RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - JacksonHall - 03-12-2019 09:35 PM
Carrier was an arrogant ass, which is why Lefty was fired. There have been lots of arrogant asses in administration positions at JMU and that's what mens basketball has become total ****. It isn't Rowe's fault. He's just the latest dude that will put his head on a chopping block for an administration that prefers to play swith with thumb from ass to mouth and back again.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - Oldduke - 03-12-2019 10:13 PM
Both Dr. Carrier and Lefty had massive egos. Ultimately, Lefty found out that there was only one "chief" at JMU and that was Dr. Carrier. Lefty thought he had enough cache forcing JMU to name his son Chuck to succeed him when Lefty wanted to retire. Carrier didn't like being told what to do. Neither did Lefty. It was a marriage that could last only but so long.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - Longhorn - 03-13-2019 03:40 AM
(03-12-2019 10:13 PM)Oldduke Wrote: Both Dr. Carrier and Lefty had massive egos. Ultimately, Lefty found out that there was only one "chief" at JMU and that was Dr. Carrier. Lefty thought he had enough cache forcing JMU to name his son Chuck to succeed him when Lefty wanted to retire. Carrier didn't like being told what to do. Neither did Lefty. It was a marriage that could last only but so long.
I agree. The disappointment of the loss in the CAAT title game, plus Lefty’s postgame interview where Lefty basically indicated he’d be back the next season (implying he was in charge not Carrier) was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. Years later Carrier admitted not renewing Lefty’s contract (in essence firing him) was a mistake, but at the time it was predictable.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - Hart Foundation - 03-13-2019 06:48 AM
An update on this list - 3 of the coaches have won their conference tournament again this year to bolster their resume.
I think this is a good list of proven coaches that JMU could go after.
For many we don’t know yet if they will add another NCAA bid this year
John Becker Vermont 191-83. 2 NCAA bids in 8 years
Tim Cluess Iona 197-107 6 NCAA bids in 9 years
Steve Forbes East Tenn St. 100-37 1 NCAA bid in 4 years. Also 62-6 at a JUCO
Ray Harper Jax St 156-101 3 NCAA bids in 8 years. 2 DII titles, 2 NAIA titles
John Brannan N. Kentucky 80-51. 2 NCAA bids in 4 years
Lavelle Moton NC Central 179-112 3 NCAA bids in 9 years.
Nathan Davis Bucknell. 88-44 2 NCAA bids in 4 years
John Thompson III 346-193. 10 NCAA bids in 17 years. One Final Four
Thad Matta 439-154 13 NCAA bids in 17 years. 2 Final Fours. Is he healthy?
Andy Kennedy 266-169. 2 NCAA in 13 years
Randy Bennett St Mary’s 412-173. 7 NCAA bids in 18 years
The investment must match the expectations.
Does JMU have more or less resources than Vermont, Iona, East Tenn St., Jacksonville State, N. Kentucky, NC Central, Bucknell, and St. Mary’s. Could they offer more money to entice those coaches to leave?
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - bcp_jmu - 03-13-2019 08:05 AM
(03-12-2019 09:35 PM)JacksonHall Wrote: Carrier was an arrogant ass, which is why Lefty was fired. There have been lots of arrogant asses in administration positions at JMU and that's what mens basketball has become total ****. It isn't Rowe's fault. He's just the latest dude that will put his head on a chopping block for an administration that prefers to play swith with thumb from ass to mouth and back again.
I'm curious...did you ever meet / speak w Dr Carrier?
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - PGJMU2 - 03-13-2019 08:55 AM
since I was the one responsible for getting lefty to JMU (story for another time), I will say what no one else will. When Lefty was fired, he had lost his fastball and it was time to figure out a graceful transition. I thought he should have been given one more year for a retirement tour or one last shot to regain the magic. We finished 1st or tied for 1st 5 of his first six years. and as well all know, only 1 ncaa appearance. then the slide began.
his last 3 years
95 16-13 9-5
96 10-20 6-10
97 16-13 8-8
Yes, he made the finals in his last year, and we should have beaten ODU but for the phantom foul on Mate Milisa, but he was in decline.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - Dukes84 - 03-13-2019 09:13 AM
(03-12-2019 11:35 AM)Hart Foundation Wrote:Dukes84 Wrote:If you fire him now, the timing is just disastrous and will likely lead to more bad seasons in the short term with no guarantees going forward.
Dukes84, you are a hoops junkie. Why do you say that hiring a good coach will likely lead to more bad seasons?
Just a few examples from JMU-
Lefty took over a program that has bad losing seasons in 2 of the 3 previous years with Thurston who was fired mid season.
Lefty goes 16-14 in year one and then wins the CAA regular season in year 2 with 20 wins.
Brady took over a program that had 8 consecutive losing seasons.
Year one he won 21 games.
The notion that we have to suffer 3 bad seasons to have a chance at one good season is wrong.
Hart --
I respect your intelligence and your sports knowledge, as you know, but I disagree with you on this one. The reason I said what I did is because I think Rowe leaving could potentially lead to returning players leaving for greener pastures and losing some or all of the incoming recruiting class. The timing isn't right to make a change at this time. Anyone that thinks a new coach is going to magically bring in a great recruiting class with him is not being realistic. He's potentially coming into a new situation that's effectively ground zero and starting from scratch. If they were going to fire Rowe, and they still could, it should have been done after his first two years (a more logical breaking point). Give it another year and if the results aren't what we want them to be, then move on at that time.
Does coaching matter? You better believe it does. Do players matter? Even more so, I would argue. Wade, a now disgraced coach, turned LSU around in short order not because he's a wizard of a coach, but because he brought in a top five recruiting class (by cheating, we now know).
Rowe's greatest strength is his ability to recruit and connect with young players. As a coach, he's improving. I think he deserves another year to show what he can do. And yes, we picked up another good commitment since you posed this queston.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - JacksonHall - 03-13-2019 09:30 AM
(03-13-2019 08:05 AM)bcp_jmu Wrote:(03-12-2019 09:35 PM)JacksonHall Wrote: Carrier was an arrogant ass, which is why Lefty was fired. There have been lots of arrogant asses in administration positions at JMU and that's what mens basketball has become total ****. It isn't Rowe's fault. He's just the latest dude that will put his head on a chopping block for an administration that prefers to play swith with thumb from ass to mouth and back again.
I'm curious...did you ever meet / speak w Dr Carrier?
Yep, and knew people who reported directly to him.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - jmudukes001 - 03-13-2019 10:10 AM
(03-13-2019 06:48 AM)Hart Foundation Wrote: An update on this list - 3 of the coaches have won their conference tournament again this year to bolster their resume.
I think this is a good list of proven coaches that JMU could go after.
For many we don’t know yet if they will add another NCAA bid this year
John Becker Vermont 191-83. 2 NCAA bids in 8 years
Tim Cluess Iona 197-107 6 NCAA bids in 9 years
Steve Forbes East Tenn St. 100-37 1 NCAA bid in 4 years. Also 62-6 at a JUCO
Ray Harper Jax St 156-101 3 NCAA bids in 8 years. 2 DII titles, 2 NAIA titles
John Brannan N. Kentucky 80-51. 2 NCAA bids in 4 years
Lavelle Moton NC Central 179-112 3 NCAA bids in 9 years.
Nathan Davis Bucknell. 88-44 2 NCAA bids in 4 years
John Thompson III 346-193. 10 NCAA bids in 17 years. One Final Four
Thad Matta 439-154 13 NCAA bids in 17 years. 2 Final Fours. Is he healthy?
Andy Kennedy 266-169. 2 NCAA in 13 years
Randy Bennett St Mary’s 412-173. 7 NCAA bids in 18 years
The investment must match the expectations.
Does JMU have more or less resources than Vermont, Iona, East Tenn St., Jacksonville State, N. Kentucky, NC Central, Bucknell, and St. Mary’s. Could they offer more money to entice those coaches to leave?
We can add Wes Miller and Kelsey and maybe Lonergan to this list. Blaine as well. Mooney will be available soon. All of the names are (way) ahead of what we have now.
As someone just mentioned in another thread, JTIII is an interesting name to consider as well.
The original list had Greenberg on it. It sounds more and more like he will coach again if it is “a good fit”. Will be interesting to follow that.
Again, an effort needs to be made and a change needs to be made.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - jmudukes001 - 03-13-2019 10:37 AM
(03-13-2019 09:13 AM)Dukes84 Wrote:(03-12-2019 11:35 AM)Hart Foundation Wrote:Dukes84 Wrote:If you fire him now, the timing is just disastrous and will likely lead to more bad seasons in the short term with no guarantees going forward.
Dukes84, you are a hoops junkie. Why do you say that hiring a good coach will likely lead to more bad seasons?
Just a few examples from JMU-
Lefty took over a program that has bad losing seasons in 2 of the 3 previous years with Thurston who was fired mid season.
Lefty goes 16-14 in year one and then wins the CAA regular season in year 2 with 20 wins.
Brady took over a program that had 8 consecutive losing seasons.
Year one he won 21 games.
The notion that we have to suffer 3 bad seasons to have a chance at one good season is wrong.
Hart --
I respect your intelligence and your sports knowledge, as you know, but I disagree with you on this one. The reason I said what I did is because I think Rowe leaving could potentially lead to returning players leaving for greener pastures and losing some or all of the incoming recruiting class. The timing isn't right to make a change at this time. Anyone that thinks a new coach is going to magically bring in a great recruiting class with him is not being realistic. He's potentially coming into a new situation that's effectively ground zero and starting from scratch. If they were going to fire Rowe, and they still could, it should have been done after his first two years (a more logical breaking point). Give it another year and if the results aren't what we want them to be, then move on at that time.
Does coaching matter? You better believe it does. Do players matter? Even more so, I would argue. Wade, a now disgraced coach, turned LSU around in short order not because he's a wizard of a coach, but because he brought in a top five recruiting class (by cheating, we now know).
Rowe's greatest strength is his ability to recruit and connect with young players. As a coach, he's improving. I think he deserves another year to show what he can do. And yes, we picked up another good commitment since you posed this queston.
Players won’t leave if they have a better coach, and definitely not if there is a name coach. If one does leave, so be it, and we will be better off with the remaining talent and a head coach instead of basically an assistant.
We have no idea if the players being recruited are coming just because of Rowe. Maybe they are coming here to be at a great school and play in the CAA and in a new stadium while getting a good education. Both Rowe and the women’s coach have said that the stadium is helping greatly with recruiting. It sounds like the Christmas family is close with Rowe so maybe, maybe that is a different case. The current players want to win too and must be having doubts if it is going to be with Rowe.
There are many many more players that stay than go when the coach that recruited them leaves or is fired.
There are probably dozens of teams ranked ahead of us who have less talent, including some in the CAA. Better coaching will lead to better results.
You have to agree that at least most of the coaches on that list have a strength of connecting with young men. That is a big part of being a successful coach.
I also have no problem with the new coach this season getting a transfer from another school that sits out next season and starts in the new stadium.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - JMUskinsCaps - 03-13-2019 11:02 AM
I just mentioned in another thread but it seems more relevant in here:
How much do you think it would cost to hire JTIII? Had a good run at Georgetown before fizzling out and also had good success in his years at Princeton. Name recognition and past sucess as a Final Four coach would definitely qualify this as the type of splash hire many have been wanting for quite a while and would probably do as much as possible to excite the fanbase headiing into the new arena.
I'm sure someone will have a list of reasons this would be a bad move but I'd be looking hard at if I was in position to make a hire.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - 2Buck - 03-13-2019 11:09 AM
(03-13-2019 06:48 AM)Hart Foundation Wrote: An update on this list - 3 of the coaches have won their conference tournament again this year to bolster their resume.
I think this is a good list of proven coaches that JMU could go after.
For many we don’t know yet if they will add another NCAA bid this year
John Becker Vermont 191-83. 2 NCAA bids in 8 years
Tim Cluess Iona 197-107 6 NCAA bids in 9 years
Steve Forbes East Tenn St. 100-37 1 NCAA bid in 4 years. Also 62-6 at a JUCO
Ray Harper Jax St 156-101 3 NCAA bids in 8 years. 2 DII titles, 2 NAIA titles
John Brannan N. Kentucky 80-51. 2 NCAA bids in 4 years
Lavelle Moton NC Central 179-112 3 NCAA bids in 9 years.
Nathan Davis Bucknell. 88-44 2 NCAA bids in 4 years
John Thompson III 346-193. 10 NCAA bids in 17 years. One Final Four
Thad Matta 439-154 13 NCAA bids in 17 years. 2 Final Fours. Is he healthy?
Andy Kennedy 266-169. 2 NCAA in 13 years
Randy Bennett St Mary’s 412-173. 7 NCAA bids in 18 years
The investment must match the expectations.
Does JMU have more or less resources than Vermont, Iona, East Tenn St., Jacksonville State, N. Kentucky, NC Central, Bucknell, and St. Mary’s. Could they offer more money to entice those coaches to leave?
These lists are painful to look at. I feel like I'm at a car show and these are like looking at Porsches and Aston Martins... but the wife keeps dragging me out to the parking lot to remind me we're keeping our boring SUV for another 3-5 years. I admit it, want it now dammit!
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - BleedingPurple - 03-13-2019 11:11 AM
(03-13-2019 09:30 AM)JacksonHall Wrote:(03-13-2019 08:05 AM)bcp_jmu Wrote:(03-12-2019 09:35 PM)JacksonHall Wrote: Carrier was an arrogant ass, which is why Lefty was fired. There have been lots of arrogant asses in administration positions at JMU and that's what mens basketball has become total ****. It isn't Rowe's fault. He's just the latest dude that will put his head on a chopping block for an administration that prefers to play swith with thumb from ass to mouth and back again.
I'm curious...did you ever meet / speak w Dr Carrier?
Yep, and knew people who reported directly to him.
Arrogant maybe, but not an a$$. Lou Campanelli and Dean Elhers got along just fine with him by giving him respect in return he respected them. It's not hard to stroke an ego unless yours is so big you look down on another man. I'm sure he micromanaged and that can be tough to deal with, but just saying "yes sir with a smile" and going about your business is about all it takes.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - Dukester - 03-13-2019 12:06 PM
(03-13-2019 08:55 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote: since I was the one responsible for getting lefty to JMU (story for another time), I will say what no one else will. When Lefty was fired, he had lost his fastball and it was time to figure out a graceful transition. I thought he should have been given one more year for a retirement tour or one last shot to regain the magic. We finished 1st or tied for 1st 5 of his first six years. and as well all know, only 1 ncaa appearance. then the slide began.
his last 3 years
95 16-13 9-5
96 10-20 6-10
97 16-13 8-8
Yes, he made the finals in his last year, and we should have beaten ODU but for the phantom foul on Mate Milisa, but he was in decline.
We let go of a coach with a 50-50 average in the CAA after reaching the CAA final. Things have certainly changed.
Lefty did not return to his reloaded with talent team. Mate transferred when Lefty was not retained and went on to be POY for another conference. Lefty took one of the worst programs in college basketball to the sweet 16, and now is in the HOF.
So up to par with the last 25 years with JMU Men's basketball program.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - MamaDuke - 03-13-2019 02:53 PM
Tony Shaver is available it seems - https://hoopdirt.com/di-dirt-tony-shaver-out-at-william-mary/
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - PGJMU2 - 03-13-2019 03:08 PM
(03-13-2019 02:53 PM)MamaDuke Wrote: Tony Shaver is available it seems - https://hoopdirt.com/di-dirt-tony-shaver-out-at-william-mary/
damn, that is a tough place to win and i thought he had generally done a good job. he was very close 2/3 years ago to getting them to the NCAAs. but i guess, he has had 15 years.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - UofRfan - 03-13-2019 03:20 PM
Shaver won 10 league games six seasons in a row including this year. At W&M. This is baffling.
William & Mary, pre-Tony Shaver: 15 seasons, 1 winning CAA record, 2 .500+ CAA seasons
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - Deez Nuts - 03-13-2019 03:26 PM
time to lock this thread cause we don't need no stinking new head coach!
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - PGJMU2 - 03-13-2019 03:58 PM
(03-13-2019 12:06 PM)Dukester Wrote:(03-13-2019 08:55 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote: since I was the one responsible for getting lefty to JMU (story for another time), I will say what no one else will. When Lefty was fired, he had lost his fastball and it was time to figure out a graceful transition. I thought he should have been given one more year for a retirement tour or one last shot to regain the magic. We finished 1st or tied for 1st 5 of his first six years. and as well all know, only 1 ncaa appearance. then the slide began.
his last 3 years
95 16-13 9-5
96 10-20 6-10
97 16-13 8-8
Yes, he made the finals in his last year, and we should have beaten ODU but for the phantom foul on Mate Milisa, but he was in decline.
We let go of a coach with a 50-50 average in the CAA after reaching the CAA final. Things have certainly changed.
Lefty did not return to his reloaded with talent team. Mate transferred when Lefty was not retained and went on to be POY for another conference. Lefty took one of the worst programs in college basketball to the sweet 16, and now is in the HOF.
So up to par with the last 25 years with JMU Men's basketball program.
yep, at the time it didnt seem a hurculean task for a coach to get us back to the top. 4 coaches later the grind continues.
RE: Targets for next Head MBB Coach - Dukes84 - 03-13-2019 04:12 PM
I thought I saw where Shaver had been a top 4 CAA team for the last 6 years. I'm surprised. Everyone is trying to do the same thing and it's cut throat.