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P5 vs. P5 non-conference records (final for 2017) - Wedge - 09-04-2017 10:51 PM
Final standings for this season:
Pac-12 7-3
Big Ten 7-6
SEC 7-9
Big 12 4-6
ACC 9-13
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - ken d - 09-05-2017 07:10 AM
(09-04-2017 10:51 PM)Wedge Wrote: With week 1 now complete...
Quote:Stewart Mandel
@slmandel
Week 1 P5 vs. P5 records:
Pac-12 3-0
SEC 3-2
B1G 2-2
ACC 2-4
Big 12 0-2
8:48 PM - 4 Sep 2017
And all 3 SEC wins came at the expense of the ACC. Payback is hell.
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - JRsec - 09-05-2017 10:03 AM
(09-05-2017 07:28 AM)ken d Wrote: G5 vs P5
MAC 0-7
SBC 0-5
MWC 0-4
USA 0-3
AAC 0-2
BYU 0-1
I'd say the TV revenue gap between P conferences and G conferences is concretizing the de facto division within the FBS. If you had listed G5 vs FCS the lines would not have been quite that clear, but still essentially one sided.
So at best one might say that the marketplace has essentially marked the natural divisions and at worst that the networks helped to engineer it. In truth the networks saw the actual values based on market analysis and their valuations were fairly given and that this is what actually helped to create a competitive advantage that has more clearly marked the divisions. What 5 years ago was a fairly clear point of division around the 60th-61st position are now becoming clearer around the 66th position.
Connecticut remains the lone G5 that stays above the actual demarcation and Wake remains the one that is just below 65th position. But Wake is gradually outdistancing those below them. But that said UConns position has moved consistent down and if we maintain the current configurations for another 5 to 10 years UConn could very well wind up behind Wake Forest.
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - Wedge - 09-05-2017 10:18 AM
P5 vs. P5 non-conference on the schedule for week 2:
Northwestern-Duke
Indiana-Virginia
Pitt-Penn State
Auburn-Clemson
Iowa-Iowa State
Nebraska-Oregon
Oklahoma-Ohio State
Minnesota-Oregon State
TCU-Arkansas
Georgia-Notre Dame
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - Hood-rich - 09-05-2017 11:31 AM
(09-05-2017 10:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:(09-05-2017 07:28 AM)ken d Wrote: G5 vs P5
MAC 0-7
SBC 0-5
MWC 0-4
USA 0-3
AAC 0-2
BYU 0-1
I'd say the TV revenue gap between P conferences and G conferences is concretizing the de facto division within the FBS. If you had listed G5 vs FCS the lines would not have been quite that clear, but still essentially one sided.
So at best one might say that the marketplace has essentially marked the natural divisions and at worst that the networks helped to engineer it. In truth the networks saw the actual values based on market analysis and their valuations were fairly given and that this is what actually helped to create a competitive advantage that has more clearly marked the divisions. What 5 years ago was a fairly clear point of division around the 60th-61st position are now becoming clearer around the 66th position.
Connecticut remains the lone G5 that stays above the actual demarcation and Wake remains the one that is just below 65th position. But Wake is gradually outdistancing those below them. But that said UConns position has moved consistent down and if we maintain the current configurations for another 5 to 10 years UConn could very well wind up behind Wake Forest.
Are you comparing UConn and WFU in terms of revenue, athletics, football only, everything?
I don't disagree with your post generally speaking. The defacto split has been here for a VERY long time. The TV money has further widened it.
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - JRsec - 09-05-2017 12:37 PM
(09-05-2017 11:31 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:(09-05-2017 10:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:(09-05-2017 07:28 AM)ken d Wrote: G5 vs P5
MAC 0-7
SBC 0-5
MWC 0-4
USA 0-3
AAC 0-2
BYU 0-1
I'd say the TV revenue gap between P conferences and G conferences is concretizing the de facto division within the FBS. If you had listed G5 vs FCS the lines would not have been quite that clear, but still essentially one sided.
So at best one might say that the marketplace has essentially marked the natural divisions and at worst that the networks helped to engineer it. In truth the networks saw the actual values based on market analysis and their valuations were fairly given and that this is what actually helped to create a competitive advantage that has more clearly marked the divisions. What 5 years ago was a fairly clear point of division around the 60th-61st position are now becoming clearer around the 66th position.
Connecticut remains the lone G5 that stays above the actual demarcation and Wake remains the one that is just below 65th position. But Wake is gradually outdistancing those below them. But that said UConns position has moved consistent down and if we maintain the current configurations for another 5 to 10 years UConn could very well wind up behind Wake Forest.
Are you comparing UConn and WFU in terms of revenue, athletics, football only, everything?
I don't disagree with your post generally speaking. The defacto split has been here for a VERY long time. The TV money has further widened it.
In terms of Gross Athletic Revenue only. I'm not evaluating the viability of their relative sports programs.
Connecticut has been able to maintain their position within the ranks of the P5 in terms of gross revenue. 3 years ago they would have been around 47th in revenue. This past year they slipped into the low 50's. The TV payouts seem to be propping up Wake's position and the extra money is helping them a little bit in competition. Conversely, Connecticut which had held its own prior to the last round of TV contracts has been slowly but steadily losing ground on the P5 schools that had been below them.
So what has transpired seems to absolutely be compromising their standing with regard to the P5 schools. I chose UConn because most of the other top G5 programs were below all but Wake Forest already. Their gap has widened but their position vis a vis the rest have not changed all that much. UConn provides a seismic measure so to speak, of just how much the gap is widening because they started out essentially 1/4 of the way up from the bottom of the P5. Now they are almost 1/6 up from that bottom.
Next year when the Revenue Totals are released, if they slippage continues, then we can gauge the rate at which the P5 schools are now outpacing the G5 in revenue. Right now it looks like a few %'s per year which at revenue totals in the 50 - 60 million dollar range is fairly significant given that the separations in that grouping are much more slight than they are in the top 30 schools in the pecking order.
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - Wedge - 09-05-2017 12:59 PM
In addition to gross revenue, you have to consider how each athletic department is spending its money, including how much they spend on each sport. Those numbers, if they're even released, are even less reliable than the overall revenue/budget numbers, but it's fair to assume that UConn, for example, spends more on men's and women's hoops than most schools with similar overall budgets, and thus another FBS program with the same total budget probably has a significantly greater football budget -- which is very relevant when we are talking about how budgets affect football competitiveness.
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - JRsec - 09-05-2017 01:17 PM
(09-05-2017 12:59 PM)Wedge Wrote: In addition to gross revenue, you have to consider how each athletic department is spending its money, including how much they spend on each sport. Those numbers, if they're even released, are even less reliable than the overall revenue/budget numbers, but it's fair to assume that UConn, for example, spends more on men's and women's hoops than most schools with similar overall budgets, and thus another FBS program with the same total budget probably has a significantly greater football budget -- which is very relevant when we are talking about how budgets affect football competitiveness.
That's very true. And it does affect competitiveness. But the ability to be competitive needs to be measured across the broader spectrum of sports offered by each school. Obviously choices are made.
What I have been observing is the difference that the now much higher P5 TV revenues have impacting. It's true they are only a 1/5 to 1/3 of the average P schools budget, but the fraction they represent gets much higher nearer the bottom 1/4 of the P schools. UConn was sitting virtually in that position when the new contracts kicked in. So the longer the gap in TV revenue exists the greater the overall gap in revenue becomes. And that cements the present pecking order pretty much in place with regards to the P5/G5 divide.
Now the point I wanted to make out of this is that part of it is market driven in that those which are most viewed are better paid. But on the other hand it creates a self perpetuating advantage. Connecticut's slippage is a measure of that self perpetuating advantage.
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - Hood-rich - 09-05-2017 01:50 PM
(09-05-2017 12:37 PM)JRsec Wrote:(09-05-2017 11:31 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:(09-05-2017 10:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:(09-05-2017 07:28 AM)ken d Wrote: G5 vs P5
MAC 0-7
SBC 0-5
MWC 0-4
USA 0-3
AAC 0-2
BYU 0-1
I'd say the TV revenue gap between P conferences and G conferences is concretizing the de facto division within the FBS. If you had listed G5 vs FCS the lines would not have been quite that clear, but still essentially one sided.
So at best one might say that the marketplace has essentially marked the natural divisions and at worst that the networks helped to engineer it. In truth the networks saw the actual values based on market analysis and their valuations were fairly given and that this is what actually helped to create a competitive advantage that has more clearly marked the divisions. What 5 years ago was a fairly clear point of division around the 60th-61st position are now becoming clearer around the 66th position.
Connecticut remains the lone G5 that stays above the actual demarcation and Wake remains the one that is just below 65th position. But Wake is gradually outdistancing those below them. But that said UConns position has moved consistent down and if we maintain the current configurations for another 5 to 10 years UConn could very well wind up behind Wake Forest.
Are you comparing UConn and WFU in terms of revenue, athletics, football only, everything?
I don't disagree with your post generally speaking. The defacto split has been here for a VERY long time. The TV money has further widened it.
In terms of Gross Athletic Revenue only. I'm not evaluating the viability of their relative sports programs.
Connecticut has been able to maintain their position within the ranks of the P5 in terms of gross revenue. 3 years ago they would have been around 47th in revenue. This past year they slipped into the low 50's. The TV payouts seem to be propping up Wake's position and the extra money is helping them a little bit in competition. Conversely, Connecticut which had held its own prior to the last round of TV contracts has been slowly but steadily losing ground on the P5 schools that had been below them.
So what has transpired seems to absolutely be compromising their standing with regard to the P5 schools. I chose UConn because most of the other top G5 programs were below all but Wake Forest already. Their gap has widened but their position vis a vis the rest have not changed all that much. UConn provides a seismic measure so to speak, of just how much the gap is widening because they started out essentially 1/4 of the way up from the bottom of the P5. Now they are almost 1/6 up from that bottom.
Next year when the Revenue Totals are released, if they slippage continues, then we can gauge the rate at which the P5 schools are now outpacing the G5 in revenue. Right now it looks like a few %'s per year which at revenue totals in the 50 - 60 million dollar range is fairly significant given that the separations in that grouping are much more slight than they are in the top 30 schools in the pecking order.
UConn has also done it via massive student fees + the Big East "buyout".
Where were you able to find the private schools' athletic revenues?
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - JRsec - 09-05-2017 01:55 PM
(09-05-2017 01:50 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:(09-05-2017 12:37 PM)JRsec Wrote:(09-05-2017 11:31 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:(09-05-2017 10:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:(09-05-2017 07:28 AM)ken d Wrote: G5 vs P5
MAC 0-7
SBC 0-5
MWC 0-4
USA 0-3
AAC 0-2
BYU 0-1
I'd say the TV revenue gap between P conferences and G conferences is concretizing the de facto division within the FBS. If you had listed G5 vs FCS the lines would not have been quite that clear, but still essentially one sided.
So at best one might say that the marketplace has essentially marked the natural divisions and at worst that the networks helped to engineer it. In truth the networks saw the actual values based on market analysis and their valuations were fairly given and that this is what actually helped to create a competitive advantage that has more clearly marked the divisions. What 5 years ago was a fairly clear point of division around the 60th-61st position are now becoming clearer around the 66th position.
Connecticut remains the lone G5 that stays above the actual demarcation and Wake remains the one that is just below 65th position. But Wake is gradually outdistancing those below them. But that said UConns position has moved consistent down and if we maintain the current configurations for another 5 to 10 years UConn could very well wind up behind Wake Forest.
Are you comparing UConn and WFU in terms of revenue, athletics, football only, everything?
I don't disagree with your post generally speaking. The defacto split has been here for a VERY long time. The TV money has further widened it.
In terms of Gross Athletic Revenue only. I'm not evaluating the viability of their relative sports programs.
Connecticut has been able to maintain their position within the ranks of the P5 in terms of gross revenue. 3 years ago they would have been around 47th in revenue. This past year they slipped into the low 50's. The TV payouts seem to be propping up Wake's position and the extra money is helping them a little bit in competition. Conversely, Connecticut which had held its own prior to the last round of TV contracts has been slowly but steadily losing ground on the P5 schools that had been below them.
So what has transpired seems to absolutely be compromising their standing with regard to the P5 schools. I chose UConn because most of the other top G5 programs were below all but Wake Forest already. Their gap has widened but their position vis a vis the rest have not changed all that much. UConn provides a seismic measure so to speak, of just how much the gap is widening because they started out essentially 1/4 of the way up from the bottom of the P5. Now they are almost 1/6 up from that bottom.
Next year when the Revenue Totals are released, if they slippage continues, then we can gauge the rate at which the P5 schools are now outpacing the G5 in revenue. Right now it looks like a few %'s per year which at revenue totals in the 50 - 60 million dollar range is fairly significant given that the separations in that grouping are much more slight than they are in the top 30 schools in the pecking order.
UConn has also done it via massive student fees + the Big East "buyout".
Where were you able to find the private schools' athletic revenues?
They were published annually from Tax Returns until last year. I saw Wake's in some kind of article back near the first of the year. The site that tracked the privates revenue has been taken down.
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - Wedge - 09-05-2017 01:57 PM
Revenue and expenses data for athletic departments at private schools, as well as public schools, as reported to the federal government, is here:
https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/institution/search
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records - JRsec - 09-05-2017 05:14 PM
Thanks Wedge! Your Link helped me to finish this annual listing of Total Revenue by School, grouped by Conference:
csnbbs.com/thread-821515-post-14558792.html#pid14558792
Conference Gross Revenue Averages From Appx. 6/30/15 to Appx. 6/30/16 Inclusive of Private Schools:
SEC: $129,420,106
B1G: $113,375,607
B12: $105,114,016
PAC: $ 90,490,084
ACC: $ 88,458,158
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records (updated through week 2) - Wedge - 09-10-2017 12:24 AM
P5 vs. P5 non-conference results for week 2. Road teams were 6-4 in these games. Nice road wins for OU and UGa, in particular.
OP is updated with the cumulative records through this week.
Northwestern-Duke
Indiana-Virginia
Pitt-Penn State
Auburn-Clemson
Iowa-Iowa State
Nebraska-Oregon
Oklahoma-Ohio State
Minnesota-Oregon State
TCU-Arkansas
Georgia-Notre Dame
This week:
ACC 2-2 (2-4 last week)
Big 12 2-1 (0-2 last week)
Big Ten 4-3 (2-2 last week)
Pac-12 1-1 (3-0 last week)
SEC 1-2 (3-2 last week)
Week 3 games:
Notre Dame-Boston College
Oklahoma State-Pittsburgh
Baylor-Duke
Purdue-Missouri
Kansas State-Vanderbilt
Arizona State-Texas Tech
Texas-USC
Ole Miss-California
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records (updated through week 2) - JRsec - 09-10-2017 01:58 AM
(09-04-2017 10:51 PM)Wedge Wrote: Updated through week 2
Pac-12 4-1
Big 12 3-2
B1G 6-5
SEC 4-4
ACC 3-6
If the Big 12 was 0-2 in Week 1 and Oklahoma and T.C.U. won today, while Iowa State lost, how are they 3-2 and not 2-3?
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records (updated through week 2) - Wedge - 09-10-2017 02:52 AM
(09-10-2017 01:58 AM)JRsec Wrote:(09-04-2017 10:51 PM)Wedge Wrote: Updated through week 2
Pac-12 4-1
Big 12 3-2
B1G 6-5
SEC 4-4
ACC 3-6
If the Big 12 was 0-2 in Week 1 and Oklahoma and T.C.U. won today, while Iowa State lost, how are they 3-2 and not 2-3?
Fixed.
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records (updated through week 2) - Hokie Mark - 09-10-2017 07:33 AM
ACC football sure fell off a lot from last season(depth wise).
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records (updated through week 2) - ken d - 09-10-2017 03:31 PM
I have the ACC at 4-6. Louisville-Purdue, Duke-NW, Clemson-Auburn and VaTech-West Virginia.
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records (updated through week 2) - Wedge - 09-10-2017 05:30 PM
(09-10-2017 03:31 PM)ken d Wrote: I have the ACC at 4-6. Louisville-Purdue, Duke-NW, Clemson-Auburn and VaTech-West Virginia.
Fixed it.
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records (updated through week 3) - Wedge - 09-17-2017 01:39 PM
Week 3 P5 v. P5 results:
Notre Dame-Boston College
Oklahoma State-Pittsburgh
Baylor-Duke
Purdue-Missouri
Kansas State-Vanderbilt
Arizona State-Texas Tech
Texas-USC
Ole Miss-California
Only two P5 v. P5 games in Week 4:
Syracuse - LSU
Notre Dame - Michigan State
RE: P5 vs. P5 non-conference records (updated through week 3) - Hokie Mark - 09-17-2017 08:48 PM
(09-17-2017 01:39 PM)Wedge Wrote: Week 3 P5 v. P5 results:
Notre Dame-Boston College
Oklahoma State-Pittsburgh
Baylor-Duke
Purdue-Missouri
Kansas State-Vanderbilt
Arizona State-Texas Tech
Texas-USC
Ole Miss-California
Only two P5 v. P5 games in Week 4:
Syracuse - LSU
Notre Dame - Michigan State
I might be going out on a limb to pick this early, but I like LSU's chances at home.
