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RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - Seahawkhoops - 12-08-2016 11:01 AM
(12-08-2016 10:46 AM)CoastGuardHawk06 Wrote:You know my feelings on Cashman, but did he over pay? Melancon got 15.5 AAV over 4 and is older and considered in the next tier. Chapman got 17.2 AAV.(12-08-2016 08:44 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:(12-07-2016 11:50 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote: Yankees get Chapman back. 5 years, $86M.That trade was a win /win, we got their best prospect, they got a closer who helped them win a title. And now we get him back. I personally wanted Jansen, but i'm glad they got someone. Too bad there won't be many games for him to close.
As a Cubs fan... you can HAVE Chappy at that price. Holy geeeeez. Again, what is Cashman thinking?! He overpaid on that, you have to admit that. Any fan would love to have Chapman, and I would have loved to keep him a Cub, but that price is waaaaaay over the top.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - bricksnivy - 12-09-2016 08:37 AM
SF overpaid too. Maybe overpaid is wrong term, but philosophically I'm opposed to paying closer that kind of money.
Chapman and Fowler were a big part of a special Cubs team. Happy they're getting paid.
2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - Seahawk Nation 08 - 12-09-2016 12:01 PM
It's hard to say teams are "overpaying" when everyone is doing it. Cespedes, Chapman, etc....there's a lot of money in baseball these days and it's redefining the marketplace.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - bricksnivy - 12-09-2016 12:25 PM
It's hard to say everybody's doing it when it's the highest contract for a reliever in the game. Not a big deal, either. I still prefer Jansen over Chappy. 5 years for a guy who relies solely on heat is a concern.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - Seahawkhoops - 12-09-2016 01:55 PM
(12-09-2016 12:25 PM)bricksnivy Wrote: 5 years for a guy who relies solely on heat is a concern.And in the last game when he was over used, he showed what happens when he loses a few MPH
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - jumpinmullet - 12-20-2016 07:16 PM
(12-08-2016 11:01 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:(12-08-2016 10:46 AM)CoastGuardHawk06 Wrote:You know my feelings on Cashman, but did he over pay? Melancon got 15.5 AAV over 4 and is older and considered in the next tier. Chapman got 17.2 AAV.(12-08-2016 08:44 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:(12-07-2016 11:50 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote: Yankees get Chapman back. 5 years, $86M.That trade was a win /win, we got their best prospect, they got a closer who helped them win a title. And now we get him back. I personally wanted Jansen, but i'm glad they got someone. Too bad there won't be many games for him to close.
As a Cubs fan... you can HAVE Chappy at that price. Holy geeeeez. Again, what is Cashman thinking?! He overpaid on that, you have to admit that. Any fan would love to have Chapman, and I would have loved to keep him a Cub, but that price is waaaaaay over the top.
Chapman had no intention of returning to the Cubs. His comments about Maddon were exactly how most people saw his use of the bullpen. Cubs won because they have monster talent-in spite of being over managed by Goofy Joe.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - bricksnivy - 12-21-2016 07:46 AM
Hey Mullet, what's your opinion of Francona bringing in Miller in a 6 run game and throwing 27 pitches?
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - bricksnivy - 12-21-2016 07:52 AM
(12-20-2016 07:16 PM)jumpinmullet Wrote: Chapman had no intention of returning to the Cubs. His comments about Maddon were exactly how most people saw his use of the bullpen. Cubs won because they have monster talent-in spite of being over managed by Goofy Joe.
I think you mean the Cubs had no intention of signing Chapman. As Chapman said, no one from the Cubs reached out to him or his agent during free agency.
"Given the results, Chapman was never going to say that he agreed with how Maddon used him and that he just couldn’t perform, which, if we’re being honest, is what really happened. You don’t have a guy like that in your bullpen just to sit there until a nice, tidy ninth inning rolls around with no runners on base. You use him. And that’s exactly what Maddon did."
Was putting Chapman out there to face one batter in the top of the ninth inning of Game 6 really the reason he struggled in the finale? That one batter, Brandon Guyer, was walked on five pitches (all fastballs).
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - Seahawkhoops - 12-21-2016 08:26 AM
(12-21-2016 07:52 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:(12-20-2016 07:16 PM)jumpinmullet Wrote: Chapman had no intention of returning to the Cubs. His comments about Maddon were exactly how most people saw his use of the bullpen. Cubs won because they have monster talent-in spite of being over managed by Goofy Joe.
I think you mean the Cubs had no intention of signing Chapman. As Chapman said, no one from the Cubs reached out to him or his agent during free agency.
"Given the results, Chapman was never going to say that he agreed with how Maddon used him and that he just couldn’t perform, which, if we’re being honest, is what really happened. You don’t have a guy like that in your bullpen just to sit there until a nice, tidy ninth inning rolls around with no runners on base. You use him. And that’s exactly what Maddon did."
Was putting Chapman out there to face one batter in the top of the ninth inning of Game 6 really the reason he struggled in the finale? That one batter, Brandon Guyer, was walked on five pitches (all fastballs).
Now you know i love Joe, but he clearly over managed Chappy, 99% of America agrees with me on that. That said, Chappy comes off as a big baby saying it to the media. His over usage was definitely the reason his fastball averaged about 5mph less in game 7 and was hittable.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - bricksnivy - 12-21-2016 09:09 AM
(12-21-2016 08:26 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:(12-21-2016 07:52 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:(12-20-2016 07:16 PM)jumpinmullet Wrote: Chapman had no intention of returning to the Cubs. His comments about Maddon were exactly how most people saw his use of the bullpen. Cubs won because they have monster talent-in spite of being over managed by Goofy Joe.
I think you mean the Cubs had no intention of signing Chapman. As Chapman said, no one from the Cubs reached out to him or his agent during free agency.
"Given the results, Chapman was never going to say that he agreed with how Maddon used him and that he just couldn’t perform, which, if we’re being honest, is what really happened. You don’t have a guy like that in your bullpen just to sit there until a nice, tidy ninth inning rolls around with no runners on base. You use him. And that’s exactly what Maddon did."
Was putting Chapman out there to face one batter in the top of the ninth inning of Game 6 really the reason he struggled in the finale? That one batter, Brandon Guyer, was walked on five pitches (all fastballs).
Now you know i love Joe, but he clearly over managed Chappy, 99% of America agrees with me on that. That said, Chappy comes off as a big baby saying it to the media. His over usage was definitely the reason his fastball averaged about 5mph less in game 7 and was hittable.
Hoops, I'm not being argumentative here, but I'll ask you the same question I asked Mullet. What's your opinion of Francona bringing in Miller in a 6 run game and throwing 27 pitches? Everyone's critical of Joe for his use of Chapman in Game 6. The thought is it was questionable to use him in the 8th, but inexcusable for him to throw 5 pitches in the 9th when the game was "in hand". It was a four run lead in the 8th, and the Cubs added 2 in the 9th. He threw 20 pitches total.
Now, in GAME 4, Francona brought in Andrew Miller for two innings and 27 pitches when they had a 6 run lead.
Everyone's obvious conclusion is that Chapman's arm was tired and that is why he surrendered the game-tying HR. But, no one thinks that Francona's use of Miller throughout the playoffs contributed to him giving up two important runs in game 7. Miller didn't give up an ER in the ALCS, but had an ERA of 3.52 against Chicago and Francona's decisions, the losing manager, are unquestionable?
Also, since the WS ended, Chicago's ptiching coach Chris Bosio has publicly stated to MLB network that Rondon and Strop were not healthy. Before the trade for Chapman, that's our 8th and 9th inning guys. In other words, our two best relievers entering the season. That has to be part of the discussion when talking about Chapman's usage.
Personally, I trusted Strop in game 6, but I'm not privy to all of the information Joe had. It's easy to second-guess his decision, but to speak matter-of-factly and give Francona a complete pass is where I take exception. We simply would not have been in the WS without Joe, and he managed the staff and pen exceptionally during the regular season.
Lastly, I assume Chapman was asked a direct question about the WS. I don't mind his answer, but I don't find it as evidence that Joe was wrong.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - Seahawkhoops - 12-21-2016 09:36 AM
I said that was an odd move by Francona as well. But, Andrew Miller and Chappy are two different guys. Except for filling in some, Miller was a middle relief guy that was used to going more than 1 inning.(and was a starter for a long time) Chapman, is not.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - bricksnivy - 12-21-2016 09:48 AM
(12-21-2016 09:36 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote: I said that was an odd move by Francona as well. But, Andrew Miller and Chappy are two different guys. Except for filling in some, Miller was a middle relief guy that was used to going more than 1 inning.(and was a starter for a long time) Chapman, is not.
Indeed, that is true. But as we saw with the Orioles and Zach Britton, I'd rather use my best arm than save him for the perfect inning.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - Seahawkhoops - 12-21-2016 09:59 AM
(12-21-2016 09:48 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:That's an entirely different situation. A well rested, hasn't pitched in days Britton.(12-21-2016 09:36 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote: I said that was an odd move by Francona as well. But, Andrew Miller and Chappy are two different guys. Except for filling in some, Miller was a middle relief guy that was used to going more than 1 inning.(and was a starter for a long time) Chapman, is not.
But as we saw with the Orioles and Zach Britton, I'd rather use my best arm than save him for the perfect inning.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - bricksnivy - 12-21-2016 10:18 AM
(12-21-2016 09:59 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote: That's an entirely different situation. A well rested, hasn't pitched in days Britton.
World Series trumps all other scenarios. Point with Britton is that it's a complicated decision, and well-respected managers (we can all agree that Joe and Buck are respected managers) take different approaches. Either way, you'll be second-guessed. For some reason, Maddon is second-guessed despite winning and Francona is still a genius.
2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - B_Hawk06 - 12-21-2016 10:34 AM
Mullet hates Maddon blah blah blah. That's basically what was used to get you guys stirred up over Chapman.
End of the day, the Cubs rallied around each other as a team when their backs were against the wall and momentum had left them.
Mullet can't handle the fact that he rooted for Francona and the Indians for 7 games and the ones that failed him were the Indians and Terry Francona.
Cry us a river Mullet.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - Seahawkhoops - 12-21-2016 10:37 AM
(12-21-2016 10:18 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:You are right, they won the WS, and had Chappy not blew game 7, that would have been redeeming for Maddon and being second guessed. However, he blew it and they pulled it out despite his silly decisions.(12-21-2016 09:59 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote: That's an entirely different situation. A well rested, hasn't pitched in days Britton.
World Series trumps all other scenarios. Point with Britton is that it's a complicated decision, and well-respected managers (we can all agree that Joe and Buck are respected managers) take different approaches. Either way, you'll be second-guessed. For some reason, Maddon is second-guessed despite winning and Francona is still a genius.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - bricksnivy - 12-21-2016 10:41 AM
(12-21-2016 10:34 AM)CoastGuardHawk06 Wrote: Mullet hates Maddon blah blah blah....
Cry us a river Mullet.
I feel for Mullet. Joe said some things that were not nice to his cousin. How can he ever be objective again?
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - bricksnivy - 12-21-2016 10:42 AM
(12-21-2016 10:37 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:(12-21-2016 10:18 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:You are right, they won the WS, and had Chappy not blew game 7, that would have been redeeming for Maddon and being second guessed. However, he blew it and they pulled it out despite his silly decisions.(12-21-2016 09:59 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote: That's an entirely different situation. A well rested, hasn't pitched in days Britton.
World Series trumps all other scenarios. Point with Britton is that it's a complicated decision, and well-respected managers (we can all agree that Joe and Buck are respected managers) take different approaches. Either way, you'll be second-guessed. For some reason, Maddon is second-guessed despite winning and Francona is still a genius.
Thank goodness for Francona. If not for his silly decisions, Chicago may have lost the series.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - Seahawkhoops - 12-21-2016 10:49 AM
(12-21-2016 10:42 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:HE did some awkward things too. He was missing 2 of his top 3 starters. It's pretty amazing they got that far. His overworking of Miller though also showed up in Game 7.(12-21-2016 10:37 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:(12-21-2016 10:18 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:You are right, they won the WS, and had Chappy not blew game 7, that would have been redeeming for Maddon and being second guessed. However, he blew it and they pulled it out despite his silly decisions.(12-21-2016 09:59 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote: That's an entirely different situation. A well rested, hasn't pitched in days Britton.
World Series trumps all other scenarios. Point with Britton is that it's a complicated decision, and well-respected managers (we can all agree that Joe and Buck are respected managers) take different approaches. Either way, you'll be second-guessed. For some reason, Maddon is second-guessed despite winning and Francona is still a genius.
Thank goodness for Francona. If not for his silly decisions, Chicago may have lost the series.
RE: 2016 and 2017 MLB Thread - bricksnivy - 12-21-2016 10:56 AM
(12-21-2016 10:49 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote: HE did some awkward things too. He was missing 2 of his top 3 starters. It's pretty amazing they got that far. His overworking of Miller though also showed up in Game 7.
Why did he leave Shaw in the game after a 17 minute rain delay? Despite Ryan Merritt pitching 4.1 scoreless 2-hit baseball in the ALCS, he didn't see the mound the WS. He overworked Miller, and started Kluber on short rest in back-to-back starts.
Missing 2 of 3 starters is justification for Francona, but Rondon and Strop injuries are irrelevant for Chapman discussion.
This is all encapsulated in my argument. They make difficult decisions, and the outcome (plus it's significance) determines how we react. It doesn't make sense. It's outcome bias.