(05-04-2022 10:00 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-04-2022 09:54 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-04-2022 12:17 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-04-2022 06:47 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-04-2022 02:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:  How about a coup de grace ESPN style? Notre Dame and Kansas to 18. That duo leaves absolutely no way for anyone to catch the total values.

Then with Texas and Oklahoma ESPN will have acquired in the SEC the brands they sought for the ACC in 2011.

Then if ESPN wants us to take it to 24 with the brands they want from the ACC we add Clemson, Duke, Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia and Virginia Tech.

Culturally, Notre Dame fits pretty well in the Big Ten for obvious reasons, but would they hold their nose and go to that league?

Or would they take a similar strategy that led them to the ACC? A more expansive base along the East Coast and reaching deep into the South?

Who would we be willing to take if Notre Dame made a few demands? That's my question.

No one. We have Florida, Georgia, L.S.U., Texas and Texas A&M. All of those are solid recruiting areas and 3 of 4 states have large growing Catholic populations. We aren't taking Navy and ND only needs 1 free game to keep USC. Indiana is contiguous to Kentucky.

FSU would be a possible pairing. Kansas is available and helps balance football density, and Ohio State would be the grand slam.

I wasn't thinking in terms of a school like Navy. More so, the schools on the East Coast that tap populations favorable to Notre Dame's base.

The Midwest and the East Coast are fertile grounds for Notre Dame viewers. If we got the Irish then there's a few heads in the Big Ten that have to turn because they know the jig is up.

ATU, ND want's access to solid recruiting in the states I listed. They own NE viewing so they don't need tagalongs. They want USC. It's not complicated. But yeah, ND & Kansas joining the SEC would be the equivalent of Dandy Don Meredith singing "Turn Out The Lights The Partys Over" to the B1G.

(05-09-2022 01:13 PM)Soobahk40050 Wrote:  

(05-04-2022 10:00 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-04-2022 09:54 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-04-2022 12:17 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-04-2022 06:47 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Culturally, Notre Dame fits pretty well in the Big Ten for obvious reasons, but would they hold their nose and go to that league?

Or would they take a similar strategy that led them to the ACC? A more expansive base along the East Coast and reaching deep into the South?

Who would we be willing to take if Notre Dame made a few demands? That's my question.

No one. We have Florida, Georgia, L.S.U., Texas and Texas A&M. All of those are solid recruiting areas and 3 of 4 states have large growing Catholic populations. We aren't taking Navy and ND only needs 1 free game to keep USC. Indiana is contiguous to Kentucky.

FSU would be a possible pairing. Kansas is available and helps balance football density, and Ohio State would be the grand slam.

I wasn't thinking in terms of a school like Navy. More so, the schools on the East Coast that tap populations favorable to Notre Dame's base.

The Midwest and the East Coast are fertile grounds for Notre Dame viewers. If we got the Irish then there's a few heads in the Big Ten that have to turn because they know the jig is up.

ATU, ND want's access to solid recruiting in the states I listed. They own NE viewing so they don't need tagalongs. They want USC. It's not complicated. But yeah, ND & Kansas joining the SEC would be the equivalent of Dandy Don Meredith singing "Turn Out The Lights The Partys Over" to the B1G.

Why not ND and USC to the SEC?

(05-13-2024 11:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  When UNC, Florida State and Clemson shake loose the SEC should give Kansas a call. Follow that up with Virginia, Duke, Virginia Tech and N.C. State. If FSU bolts to the Big 10 with Georgia Tech then pick up Miami.

We are then done to the West, and done overall.

(05-14-2024 01:32 AM)murrdcu Wrote:  

(05-13-2024 11:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  When UNC, Florida State and Clemson shake loose the SEC should give Kansas a call. Follow that up with Virginia, Duke, Virginia Tech and N.C. State. If FSU bolts to the Big 10 with Georgia Tech then pick up Miami.

We are then done to the West, and done overall.

Sec should land a nice haul during this round. Unfortunately, FSU appears B1G bound—could change—but not holding my breathe. Messageboard rumors of Virginia already turning down a SEC offer makes me think uVA and state politicians could try and rebuild the ACC as opposed to leaving it.if UNC unshackles themselves from Nc state, I expect them to follow Clemson to the sec. Remaining options would be Kansas, Duke, maybe Miami, to round up to 20. Dark horse would be a WVu or, the golden whale, Notre Dame.

(05-14-2024 10:34 AM)JRsec Wrote:  When Super conferences grow to 20 or 24 there won't be room in the schedules for in state rivals let alone next state rivals. Sankey knows this. Greg Fluguar and the Dude, and any other bloggers fishing for nickels and dimes on YouTube either don't know this or don't care because they are too busy making crap up.

One West Coast news reporter took one of my posts here for an article a few years back. One so called online magazine here in the South copied an entire post of mine changed literally one word and claimed it as their own a month after I posted it on this board. They've done similar things to a few other of our posters. There isn't an ounce of honesty in those jerks. Fluguar reads this board because 3 or 4 years ago before any of you knew who the hell the fat bastard was he cited my assessment of the Big 10's revenue from their conference network, which I cited from Kagan an accounting firm and called me a liar when he couldn't back up the fact that they lost a significant amount of value with cord cutting. He likely read my argument with Frank a couple of years ago in which I said that the Big 10 would eventually grow out of the PAC 12 and Frank denied it and called it looney.

(05-16-2024 09:43 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-14-2024 10:34 AM)JRsec Wrote:  When Super conferences grow to 20 or 24 there won't be room in the schedules for in state rivals let alone next state rivals. Sankey knows this. Greg Fluguar and the Dude, and any other bloggers fishing for nickels and dimes on YouTube either don't know this or don't care because they are too busy making crap up.

One West Coast news reporter took one of my posts here for an article a few years back. One so called online magazine here in the South copied an entire post of mine changed literally one word and claimed it as their own a month after I posted it on this board. They've done similar things to a few other of our posters. There isn't an ounce of honesty in those jerks. Fluguar reads this board because 3 or 4 years ago before any of you knew who the hell the fat bastard was he cited my assessment of the Big 10's revenue from their conference network, which I cited from Kagan an accounting firm and called me a liar when he couldn't back up the fact that they lost a significant amount of value with cord cutting. He likely read my argument with Frank a couple of years ago in which I said that the Big 10 would eventually grow out of the PAC 12 and Frank denied it and called it looney.

I remember that. It was interesting in part because the mantra at the time was that the Big Ten owning half of their own network would pay huge dividends. I'm sure they made plenty of money, but the value of the network being driven down by the market was a story largely ignored. I want to say it was the next year that people stopped reporting on the SNL Kagan valuations of the conference networks. And last we knew, FOX was buying larger shares of the BTN. If ownership guaranteed higher value then that doesn't make much sense.

In fairness, I'm sure the SEC Network has dropped in value too, but they were not dropping as fast as the BTN back then. I'm honestly a little surprised the ACC Network got off the ground in that environment. Within 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if none of these conference networks even exist.

Changing subjects a bit, I don't expect Notre Dame to join the SEC and in part because of what you were saying about business deals being done regionally for the most part. Obviously, most ND donors would be doing business in the Midwest and Northeast where the Catholic populations are in a much higher concentration. The only real potential I see is if ND simply decides they want to thumb their nose at the Big Ten one last time and mostly to join the faster growing regions.

I think the Magnificent Seven gives us the best picture of who ESPN would value from the ACC.

Florida State, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, UVA, and Virginia Tech.

I don't see Duke in the mix simply because they will never truly prioritize football. While their basketball value is potentially immense, everyone else that has moved to a better league in recent years at least tries to be competitive in the sport. Duke, by contrast, isn't much different from Vanderbilt in that regard. Even Kansas has invested in football a lot in the last decade. Even if it's unlikely they have a high level program at any point, there is still a lot of value in being a draw for viewers and ticket buyers. Even a mediocre football program can still bring down a lot of cash. Basketball has the potential to be much more valuable, but there's too much money being left on the table if your school simply doesn't care about the football product.

I think there's something interesting in Coach K's recent comments as well. He wants a merger with the Big East and I don't think that simply represents his preference. To me, that sounds like what Duke would prefer to do in a world where they're not P2.

That 8th slot could easily be Kansas.

(05-20-2024 03:42 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(05-16-2024 09:43 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-14-2024 10:34 AM)JRsec Wrote:  When Super conferences grow to 20 or 24 there won't be room in the schedules for in state rivals let alone next state rivals. Sankey knows this. Greg Fluguar and the Dude, and any other bloggers fishing for nickels and dimes on YouTube either don't know this or don't care because they are too busy making crap up.

One West Coast news reporter took one of my posts here for an article a few years back. One so called online magazine here in the South copied an entire post of mine changed literally one word and claimed it as their own a month after I posted it on this board. They've done similar things to a few other of our posters. There isn't an ounce of honesty in those jerks. Fluguar reads this board because 3 or 4 years ago before any of you knew who the hell the fat bastard was he cited my assessment of the Big 10's revenue from their conference network, which I cited from Kagan an accounting firm and called me a liar when he couldn't back up the fact that they lost a significant amount of value with cord cutting. He likely read my argument with Frank a couple of years ago in which I said that the Big 10 would eventually grow out of the PAC 12 and Frank denied it and called it looney.

I remember that. It was interesting in part because the mantra at the time was that the Big Ten owning half of their own network would pay huge dividends. I'm sure they made plenty of money, but the value of the network being driven down by the market was a story largely ignored. I want to say it was the next year that people stopped reporting on the SNL Kagan valuations of the conference networks. And last we knew, FOX was buying larger shares of the BTN. If ownership guaranteed higher value then that doesn't make much sense.

In fairness, I'm sure the SEC Network has dropped in value too, but they were not dropping as fast as the BTN back then. I'm honestly a little surprised the ACC Network got off the ground in that environment. Within 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if none of these conference networks even exist.

Changing subjects a bit, I don't expect Notre Dame to join the SEC and in part because of what you were saying about business deals being done regionally for the most part. Obviously, most ND donors would be doing business in the Midwest and Northeast where the Catholic populations are in a much higher concentration. The only real potential I see is if ND simply decides they want to thumb their nose at the Big Ten one last time and mostly to join the faster growing regions.

I think the Magnificent Seven gives us the best picture of who ESPN would value from the ACC.

Florida State, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, UVA, and Virginia Tech.

I don't see Duke in the mix simply because they will never truly prioritize football. While their basketball value is potentially immense, everyone else that has moved to a better league in recent years at least tries to be competitive in the sport. Duke, by contrast, isn't much different from Vanderbilt in that regard. Even Kansas has invested in football a lot in the last decade. Even if it's unlikely they have a high level program at any point, there is still a lot of value in being a draw for viewers and ticket buyers. Even a mediocre football program can still bring down a lot of cash. Basketball has the potential to be much more valuable, but there's too much money being left on the table if your school simply doesn't care about the football product.

I think there's something interesting in Coach K's recent comments as well. He wants a merger with the Big East and I don't think that simply represents his preference. To me, that sounds like what Duke would prefer to do in a world where they're not P2.

That 8th slot could easily be Kansas.

ND is an interesting one in that all the available evidence points towards them joining the B1G, yet they remain stubbornly independent. Their top priority is access to titles. More SEC schools win more titles than B1G schools. Heck, the ACC is ahead of the B1G in titles won over the past 50 years, football or basketball. It also makes logical sense that they'd want easy access to large Catholic populations. However, where is that growing, in the NE and Midwest or in the South and SE? The one overwhelming advantage that the B1G has on the SEC is academics, but ND just joined the AAU and thus has far less need of the BTAA.

I'd still say there's a 90% chance that ND ends up in the B1G if they have to join one of the P2, but I would have said 99% chance a couple of years ago.

It's been interesting sifting through this thread, from first reading the first page today to get a feel for what people were thinking back in 2013 all the way up to now. Even into February 2021, I saw scenarios discussing 2/3 of the Big 12 in various groupings, and VERY few thoughts of just OUT all by themselves. As we examine future possibilities for we might want from the ACC, I think it's worthwhile to consider all the digital ink that was spilled here discussing 2nd or 3rd level programs rather than just the Big Boys. It makes no sense to bring in A&M, Missouri, OU and UT, then follow that up with UVA and NC St.

What happens if in, say 2026, FSU and the ACC sort out their business and we get calls from FSU/Clemson/UNC. Who is our 4th, if we even decide that we need 20 instead of 19?

1st call: ND
2nd call: Michigan - the B1G tried to steal their title last year, that won't be quickly forgotten
3rd call: tOSU
4th call: PSU
5th call: Nebraska
6th-12th calls: Miami, VT, UVA, KU, ASU, CU, UArizona

The problem with the above, other than Miami and sort of VT, is that Ok St brings a whole lotta eyeballs. Any potential addition probably needs to at least be able to hang with Ok St and offer additional benefits, like, say Miami and/or VT. The SEC played chicken over Ok St and eventually won that staring contest, it seems quite unlikely that we're going to reconsider that decision now that the Conference is far stronger than it was a few years ago. Those others listed have potential to see big gains over the next few years, I'm curious to see if they continue to build or start to wither.

(07-29-2021 08:24 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 08:05 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 07:50 PM)ICThawk Wrote:  Is it time to close this thread?

Not that I expect another addition from the Big 12 necessarily, but I think this chapter isn't quite closed.

Doubtful the SEC is interested in any additional current B12 schools; at least for a long time. But with the mega-conference initiative and/or pay-the-players factor developing, I would not outright dismiss certain reshuffling that could directly impact the SEC.

The focus is turning quickly to Clemson and FSU from the ACC. That is more than speculation already.

(05-20-2024 05:51 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-20-2024 03:42 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(05-16-2024 09:43 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-14-2024 10:34 AM)JRsec Wrote:  When Super conferences grow to 20 or 24 there won't be room in the schedules for in state rivals let alone next state rivals. Sankey knows this. Greg Fluguar and the Dude, and any other bloggers fishing for nickels and dimes on YouTube either don't know this or don't care because they are too busy making crap up.

One West Coast news reporter took one of my posts here for an article a few years back. One so called online magazine here in the South copied an entire post of mine changed literally one word and claimed it as their own a month after I posted it on this board. They've done similar things to a few other of our posters. There isn't an ounce of honesty in those jerks. Fluguar reads this board because 3 or 4 years ago before any of you knew who the hell the fat bastard was he cited my assessment of the Big 10's revenue from their conference network, which I cited from Kagan an accounting firm and called me a liar when he couldn't back up the fact that they lost a significant amount of value with cord cutting. He likely read my argument with Frank a couple of years ago in which I said that the Big 10 would eventually grow out of the PAC 12 and Frank denied it and called it looney.

I remember that. It was interesting in part because the mantra at the time was that the Big Ten owning half of their own network would pay huge dividends. I'm sure they made plenty of money, but the value of the network being driven down by the market was a story largely ignored. I want to say it was the next year that people stopped reporting on the SNL Kagan valuations of the conference networks. And last we knew, FOX was buying larger shares of the BTN. If ownership guaranteed higher value then that doesn't make much sense.

In fairness, I'm sure the SEC Network has dropped in value too, but they were not dropping as fast as the BTN back then. I'm honestly a little surprised the ACC Network got off the ground in that environment. Within 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if none of these conference networks even exist.

Changing subjects a bit, I don't expect Notre Dame to join the SEC and in part because of what you were saying about business deals being done regionally for the most part. Obviously, most ND donors would be doing business in the Midwest and Northeast where the Catholic populations are in a much higher concentration. The only real potential I see is if ND simply decides they want to thumb their nose at the Big Ten one last time and mostly to join the faster growing regions.

I think the Magnificent Seven gives us the best picture of who ESPN would value from the ACC.

Florida State, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, UVA, and Virginia Tech.

I don't see Duke in the mix simply because they will never truly prioritize football. While their basketball value is potentially immense, everyone else that has moved to a better league in recent years at least tries to be competitive in the sport. Duke, by contrast, isn't much different from Vanderbilt in that regard. Even Kansas has invested in football a lot in the last decade. Even if it's unlikely they have a high level program at any point, there is still a lot of value in being a draw for viewers and ticket buyers. Even a mediocre football program can still bring down a lot of cash. Basketball has the potential to be much more valuable, but there's too much money being left on the table if your school simply doesn't care about the football product.

I think there's something interesting in Coach K's recent comments as well. He wants a merger with the Big East and I don't think that simply represents his preference. To me, that sounds like what Duke would prefer to do in a world where they're not P2.

That 8th slot could easily be Kansas.

ND is an interesting one in that all the available evidence points towards them joining the B1G, yet they remain stubbornly independent. Their top priority is access to titles. More SEC schools win more titles than B1G schools. Heck, the ACC is ahead of the B1G in titles won over the past 50 years, football or basketball. It also makes logical sense that they'd want easy access to large Catholic populations. However, where is that growing, in the NE and Midwest or in the South and SE? The one overwhelming advantage that the B1G has on the SEC is academics, but ND just joined the AAU and thus has far less need of the BTAA.

I'd still say there's a 90% chance that ND ends up in the B1G if they have to join one of the P2, but I would have said 99% chance a couple of years ago.

It's been interesting sifting through this thread, from first reading the first page today to get a feel for what people were thinking back in 2013 all the way up to now. Even into February 2021, I saw scenarios discussing 2/3 of the Big 12 in various groupings, and VERY few thoughts of just OUT all by themselves. As we examine future possibilities for we might want from the ACC, I think it's worthwhile to consider all the digital ink that was spilled here discussing 2nd or 3rd level programs rather than just the Big Boys. It makes no sense to bring in A&M, Missouri, OU and UT, then follow that up with UVA and NC St.

What happens if in, say 2026, FSU and the ACC sort out their business and we get calls from FSU/Clemson/UNC. Who is our 4th, if we even decide that we need 20 instead of 19?

1st call: ND
2nd call: Michigan - the B1G tried to steal their title last year, that won't be quickly forgotten
3rd call: tOSU
4th call: PSU
5th call: Nebraska
6th-12th calls: Miami, VT, UVA, KU, ASU, CU, UArizona

The problem with the above, other than Miami and sort of VT, is that Ok St brings a whole lotta eyeballs. Any potential addition probably needs to at least be able to hang with Ok St and offer additional benefits, like, say Miami and/or VT. The SEC played chicken over Ok St and eventually won that staring contest, it seems quite unlikely that we're going to reconsider that decision now that the Conference is far stronger than it was a few years ago. Those others listed have potential to see big gains over the next few years, I'm curious to see if they continue to build or start to wither.

For the purposes of ESPN there is no reason for Notre Dame to join the SEC in full, but with an expansion with a number of key ACC schools having Notre Dame park its sports with the SEC, especially helping their growing baseball program, and signing a 5 game deal would be something that would give ESPN the leverage they've wanted to keep. I doubt seriously that anyone is in a talks about landing Notre Dame fully.

I still say there is only 1 program in the Big 12 left that's worth landing fully and that's Kansas. But there are 7 in the ACC which are equally, or more important to the SEC's control of the region.

(07-29-2021 09:46 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Now let me toss out a plan. The PAC takes Kansas State, Iowa State, TCU and Texas Tech and move to 16 adding 2 AAU, one in DFW and the other with Tech which has a large alumni base there. What if Notre Dame with Pitt, B.C. and Syracuse formed an Eastern Half division and joined the PAC?

(05-20-2024 03:42 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(05-16-2024 09:43 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-14-2024 10:34 AM)JRsec Wrote:  When Super conferences grow to 20 or 24 there won't be room in the schedules for in state rivals let alone next state rivals. Sankey knows this. Greg Fluguar and the Dude, and any other bloggers fishing for nickels and dimes on YouTube either don't know this or don't care because they are too busy making crap up.

One West Coast news reporter took one of my posts here for an article a few years back. One so called online magazine here in the South copied an entire post of mine changed literally one word and claimed it as their own a month after I posted it on this board. They've done similar things to a few other of our posters. There isn't an ounce of honesty in those jerks. Fluguar reads this board because 3 or 4 years ago before any of you knew who the hell the fat bastard was he cited my assessment of the Big 10's revenue from their conference network, which I cited from Kagan an accounting firm and called me a liar when he couldn't back up the fact that they lost a significant amount of value with cord cutting. He likely read my argument with Frank a couple of years ago in which I said that the Big 10 would eventually grow out of the PAC 12 and Frank denied it and called it looney.

I remember that. It was interesting in part because the mantra at the time was that the Big Ten owning half of their own network would pay huge dividends. I'm sure they made plenty of money, but the value of the network being driven down by the market was a story largely ignored. I want to say it was the next year that people stopped reporting on the SNL Kagan valuations of the conference networks. And last we knew, FOX was buying larger shares of the BTN. If ownership guaranteed higher value then that doesn't make much sense.

In fairness, I'm sure the SEC Network has dropped in value too, but they were not dropping as fast as the BTN back then. I'm honestly a little surprised the ACC Network got off the ground in that environment. Within 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if none of these conference networks even exist.

Changing subjects a bit, I don't expect Notre Dame to join the SEC and in part because of what you were saying about business deals being done regionally for the most part. Obviously, most ND donors would be doing business in the Midwest and Northeast where the Catholic populations are in a much higher concentration. The only real potential I see is if ND simply decides they want to thumb their nose at the Big Ten one last time and mostly to join the faster growing regions.

I think the Magnificent Seven gives us the best picture of who ESPN would value from the ACC.

Florida State, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, UVA, and Virginia Tech.

I don't see Duke in the mix simply because they will never truly prioritize football. While their basketball value is potentially immense, everyone else that has moved to a better league in recent years at least tries to be competitive in the sport. Duke, by contrast, isn't much different from Vanderbilt in that regard. Even Kansas has invested in football a lot in the last decade. Even if it's unlikely they have a high level program at any point, there is still a lot of value in being a draw for viewers and ticket buyers. Even a mediocre football program can still bring down a lot of cash. Basketball has the potential to be much more valuable, but there's too much money being left on the table if your school simply doesn't care about the football product.

I think there's something interesting in Coach K's recent comments as well. He wants a merger with the Big East and I don't think that simply represents his preference. To me, that sounds like what Duke would prefer to do in a world where they're not P2.

That 8th slot could easily be Kansas.

ND is an interesting one in that all the available evidence points towards them joining the B1G, yet they remain stubbornly independent. Their top priority is access to titles. More SEC schools win more titles than B1G schools. Heck, the ACC is ahead of the B1G in titles won over the past 50 years, football or basketball. It also makes logical sense that they'd want easy access to large Catholic populations. However, where is that growing, in the NE and Midwest or in the South and SE? The one overwhelming advantage that the B1G has on the SEC is academics, but ND just joined the AAU and thus has far less need of the BTAA.

I'd still say there's a 90% chance that ND ends up in the B1G if they have to join one of the P2, but I would have said 99% chance a couple of years ago.

It's been interesting sifting through this thread, from first reading the first page today to get a feel for what people were thinking back in 2013 all the way up to now. Even into February 2021, I saw scenarios discussing 2/3 of the Big 12 in various groupings, and VERY few thoughts of just OUT all by themselves. As we examine future possibilities for we might want from the ACC, I think it's worthwhile to consider all the digital ink that was spilled here discussing 2nd or 3rd level programs rather than just the Big Boys. It makes no sense to bring in A&M, Missouri, OU and UT, then follow that up with UVA and NC St.

What happens if in, say 2026, FSU and the ACC sort out their business and we get calls from FSU/Clemson/UNC. Who is our 4th, if we even decide that we need 20 instead of 19?

1st call: ND
2nd call: Michigan - the B1G tried to steal their title last year, that won't be quickly forgotten
3rd call: tOSU
4th call: PSU
5th call: Nebraska
6th-12th calls: Miami, VT, UVA, KU, ASU, CU, UArizona

The problem with the above, other than Miami and sort of VT, is that Ok St brings a whole lotta eyeballs. Any potential addition probably needs to at least be able to hang with Ok St and offer additional benefits, like, say Miami and/or VT. The SEC played chicken over Ok St and eventually won that staring contest, it seems quite unlikely that we're going to reconsider that decision now that the Conference is far stronger than it was a few years ago. Those others listed have potential to see big gains over the next few years, I'm curious to see if they continue to build or start to wither.

(05-20-2024 08:04 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-20-2024 03:42 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(05-16-2024 09:43 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-14-2024 10:34 AM)JRsec Wrote:  When Super conferences grow to 20 or 24 there won't be room in the schedules for in state rivals let alone next state rivals. Sankey knows this. Greg Fluguar and the Dude, and any other bloggers fishing for nickels and dimes on YouTube either don't know this or don't care because they are too busy making crap up.

One West Coast news reporter took one of my posts here for an article a few years back. One so called online magazine here in the South copied an entire post of mine changed literally one word and claimed it as their own a month after I posted it on this board. They've done similar things to a few other of our posters. There isn't an ounce of honesty in those jerks. Fluguar reads this board because 3 or 4 years ago before any of you knew who the hell the fat bastard was he cited my assessment of the Big 10's revenue from their conference network, which I cited from Kagan an accounting firm and called me a liar when he couldn't back up the fact that they lost a significant amount of value with cord cutting. He likely read my argument with Frank a couple of years ago in which I said that the Big 10 would eventually grow out of the PAC 12 and Frank denied it and called it looney.

I remember that. It was interesting in part because the mantra at the time was that the Big Ten owning half of their own network would pay huge dividends. I'm sure they made plenty of money, but the value of the network being driven down by the market was a story largely ignored. I want to say it was the next year that people stopped reporting on the SNL Kagan valuations of the conference networks. And last we knew, FOX was buying larger shares of the BTN. If ownership guaranteed higher value then that doesn't make much sense.

In fairness, I'm sure the SEC Network has dropped in value too, but they were not dropping as fast as the BTN back then. I'm honestly a little surprised the ACC Network got off the ground in that environment. Within 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if none of these conference networks even exist.

Changing subjects a bit, I don't expect Notre Dame to join the SEC and in part because of what you were saying about business deals being done regionally for the most part. Obviously, most ND donors would be doing business in the Midwest and Northeast where the Catholic populations are in a much higher concentration. The only real potential I see is if ND simply decides they want to thumb their nose at the Big Ten one last time and mostly to join the faster growing regions.

I think the Magnificent Seven gives us the best picture of who ESPN would value from the ACC.

Florida State, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, UVA, and Virginia Tech.

I don't see Duke in the mix simply because they will never truly prioritize football. While their basketball value is potentially immense, everyone else that has moved to a better league in recent years at least tries to be competitive in the sport. Duke, by contrast, isn't much different from Vanderbilt in that regard. Even Kansas has invested in football a lot in the last decade. Even if it's unlikely they have a high level program at any point, there is still a lot of value in being a draw for viewers and ticket buyers. Even a mediocre football program can still bring down a lot of cash. Basketball has the potential to be much more valuable, but there's too much money being left on the table if your school simply doesn't care about the football product.

I think there's something interesting in Coach K's recent comments as well. He wants a merger with the Big East and I don't think that simply represents his preference. To me, that sounds like what Duke would prefer to do in a world where they're not P2.

That 8th slot could easily be Kansas.

ND is an interesting one in that all the available evidence points towards them joining the B1G, yet they remain stubbornly independent. Their top priority is access to titles. More SEC schools win more titles than B1G schools. Heck, the ACC is ahead of the B1G in titles won over the past 50 years, football or basketball. It also makes logical sense that they'd want easy access to large Catholic populations. However, where is that growing, in the NE and Midwest or in the South and SE? The one overwhelming advantage that the B1G has on the SEC is academics, but ND just joined the AAU and thus has far less need of the BTAA.

I'd still say there's a 90% chance that ND ends up in the B1G if they have to join one of the P2, but I would have said 99% chance a couple of years ago.

It's been interesting sifting through this thread, from first reading the first page today to get a feel for what people were thinking back in 2013 all the way up to now. Even into February 2021, I saw scenarios discussing 2/3 of the Big 12 in various groupings, and VERY few thoughts of just OUT all by themselves. As we examine future possibilities for we might want from the ACC, I think it's worthwhile to consider all the digital ink that was spilled here discussing 2nd or 3rd level programs rather than just the Big Boys. It makes no sense to bring in A&M, Missouri, OU and UT, then follow that up with UVA and NC St.

What happens if in, say 2026, FSU and the ACC sort out their business and we get calls from FSU/Clemson/UNC. Who is our 4th, if we even decide that we need 20 instead of 19?

1st call: ND
2nd call: Michigan - the B1G tried to steal their title last year, that won't be quickly forgotten
3rd call: tOSU
4th call: PSU
5th call: Nebraska
6th-12th calls: Miami, VT, UVA, KU, ASU, CU, UArizona

The problem with the above, other than Miami and sort of VT, is that Ok St brings a whole lotta eyeballs. Any potential addition probably needs to at least be able to hang with Ok St and offer additional benefits, like, say Miami and/or VT. The SEC played chicken over Ok St and eventually won that staring contest, it seems quite unlikely that we're going to reconsider that decision now that the Conference is far stronger than it was a few years ago. Those others listed have potential to see big gains over the next few years, I'm curious to see if they continue to build or start to wither.

Now, that's quite the reading list. It would be fascinating to see in real time how this conversation evolved over the years. I only remember bits and pieces.

But you do make a good observation in that it was really only JR that stated Texas and Oklahoma would come as a pair. I always had trouble accepting it would be that simple. So if nothing else, that should inform our understanding now a little better.

I do remember in the aftermath of Texas/OU announcing that it was rumored the SEC was in discussion with Florida State, Clemson, Michigan and Ohio State...quite the combo. I don't doubt those discussions took place although it's entirely possible that Michigan and OSU used them as a means to understand the SEC's intentions better rather than as a genuine starting point for joining. They decided to try to build their own mega-conference instead of joining someone else's.

That could help us understand Notre Dame a little better too. They like their hegemony, they just exercise it differently than most.

I do think Florida State, Clemson, and North Carolina will end up in the SEC although I'm not confident on the 4th one. I think the SEC would like to get into VA, but who knows. Kansas also makes a ton of sense to me in part because I think ESPN wants full control of their content.

(05-21-2024 12:01 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-20-2024 08:04 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-20-2024 03:42 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(05-16-2024 09:43 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-14-2024 10:34 AM)JRsec Wrote:  When Super conferences grow to 20 or 24 there won't be room in the schedules for in state rivals let alone next state rivals. Sankey knows this. Greg Fluguar and the Dude, and any other bloggers fishing for nickels and dimes on YouTube either don't know this or don't care because they are too busy making crap up.

One West Coast news reporter took one of my posts here for an article a few years back. One so called online magazine here in the South copied an entire post of mine changed literally one word and claimed it as their own a month after I posted it on this board. They've done similar things to a few other of our posters. There isn't an ounce of honesty in those jerks. Fluguar reads this board because 3 or 4 years ago before any of you knew who the hell the fat bastard was he cited my assessment of the Big 10's revenue from their conference network, which I cited from Kagan an accounting firm and called me a liar when he couldn't back up the fact that they lost a significant amount of value with cord cutting. He likely read my argument with Frank a couple of years ago in which I said that the Big 10 would eventually grow out of the PAC 12 and Frank denied it and called it looney.

I remember that. It was interesting in part because the mantra at the time was that the Big Ten owning half of their own network would pay huge dividends. I'm sure they made plenty of money, but the value of the network being driven down by the market was a story largely ignored. I want to say it was the next year that people stopped reporting on the SNL Kagan valuations of the conference networks. And last we knew, FOX was buying larger shares of the BTN. If ownership guaranteed higher value then that doesn't make much sense.

In fairness, I'm sure the SEC Network has dropped in value too, but they were not dropping as fast as the BTN back then. I'm honestly a little surprised the ACC Network got off the ground in that environment. Within 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if none of these conference networks even exist.

Changing subjects a bit, I don't expect Notre Dame to join the SEC and in part because of what you were saying about business deals being done regionally for the most part. Obviously, most ND donors would be doing business in the Midwest and Northeast where the Catholic populations are in a much higher concentration. The only real potential I see is if ND simply decides they want to thumb their nose at the Big Ten one last time and mostly to join the faster growing regions.

I think the Magnificent Seven gives us the best picture of who ESPN would value from the ACC.

Florida State, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, UVA, and Virginia Tech.

I don't see Duke in the mix simply because they will never truly prioritize football. While their basketball value is potentially immense, everyone else that has moved to a better league in recent years at least tries to be competitive in the sport. Duke, by contrast, isn't much different from Vanderbilt in that regard. Even Kansas has invested in football a lot in the last decade. Even if it's unlikely they have a high level program at any point, there is still a lot of value in being a draw for viewers and ticket buyers. Even a mediocre football program can still bring down a lot of cash. Basketball has the potential to be much more valuable, but there's too much money being left on the table if your school simply doesn't care about the football product.

I think there's something interesting in Coach K's recent comments as well. He wants a merger with the Big East and I don't think that simply represents his preference. To me, that sounds like what Duke would prefer to do in a world where they're not P2.

That 8th slot could easily be Kansas.

ND is an interesting one in that all the available evidence points towards them joining the B1G, yet they remain stubbornly independent. Their top priority is access to titles. More SEC schools win more titles than B1G schools. Heck, the ACC is ahead of the B1G in titles won over the past 50 years, football or basketball. It also makes logical sense that they'd want easy access to large Catholic populations. However, where is that growing, in the NE and Midwest or in the South and SE? The one overwhelming advantage that the B1G has on the SEC is academics, but ND just joined the AAU and thus has far less need of the BTAA.

I'd still say there's a 90% chance that ND ends up in the B1G if they have to join one of the P2, but I would have said 99% chance a couple of years ago.

It's been interesting sifting through this thread, from first reading the first page today to get a feel for what people were thinking back in 2013 all the way up to now. Even into February 2021, I saw scenarios discussing 2/3 of the Big 12 in various groupings, and VERY few thoughts of just OUT all by themselves. As we examine future possibilities for we might want from the ACC, I think it's worthwhile to consider all the digital ink that was spilled here discussing 2nd or 3rd level programs rather than just the Big Boys. It makes no sense to bring in A&M, Missouri, OU and UT, then follow that up with UVA and NC St.

What happens if in, say 2026, FSU and the ACC sort out their business and we get calls from FSU/Clemson/UNC. Who is our 4th, if we even decide that we need 20 instead of 19?

1st call: ND
2nd call: Michigan - the B1G tried to steal their title last year, that won't be quickly forgotten
3rd call: tOSU
4th call: PSU
5th call: Nebraska
6th-12th calls: Miami, VT, UVA, KU, ASU, CU, UArizona

The problem with the above, other than Miami and sort of VT, is that Ok St brings a whole lotta eyeballs. Any potential addition probably needs to at least be able to hang with Ok St and offer additional benefits, like, say Miami and/or VT. The SEC played chicken over Ok St and eventually won that staring contest, it seems quite unlikely that we're going to reconsider that decision now that the Conference is far stronger than it was a few years ago. Those others listed have potential to see big gains over the next few years, I'm curious to see if they continue to build or start to wither.

Now, that's quite the reading list. It would be fascinating to see in real time how this conversation evolved over the years. I only remember bits and pieces.

But you do make a good observation in that it was really only JR that stated Texas and Oklahoma would come as a pair. I always had trouble accepting it would be that simple. So if nothing else, that should inform our understanding now a little better.

I do remember in the aftermath of Texas/OU announcing that it was rumored the SEC was in discussion with Florida State, Clemson, Michigan and Ohio State...quite the combo. I don't doubt those discussions took place although it's entirely possible that Michigan and OSU used them as a means to understand the SEC's intentions better rather than as a genuine starting point for joining. They decided to try to build their own mega-conference instead of joining someone else's.

That could help us understand Notre Dame a little better too. They like their hegemony, they just exercise it differently than most.

I do think Florida State, Clemson, and North Carolina will end up in the SEC although I'm not confident on the 4th one. I think the SEC would like to get into VA, but who knows. Kansas also makes a ton of sense to me in part because I think ESPN wants full control of their content.

ATU is familiar with my methodology, most of which can be found in the thread "A Different Way to Look at Valuations." Texas and Oklahoma were Clearly #1 and #2 in the Big 12 and represented 56.7% of their total value. Kansas is a distant third but apart from the rest.

In the ACC it isn't quite so clear. Clemson and FSU are 24.7% of the total value. But Virginia Tech and North Carolina are the best draws in two states which combined almost equal adding another Florida.

Let's say the SEC has only 4 slots to offer now? Louisville is a better value than Virginia Tech and North Carolina, but they are in a small state as a duplicated market. Miami and Georgia Tech have more football value, but not overall value.

If the SEC is to add 4 Florida State, Clemson, North Carolina and Virginia Tech deliver the most. Sans FSU Miami delivers a part of the state where the SEC isn't strong.

But it would be 4 of those 5 from the ACC if we were only taking the best new markets and the top values.

And that's fine for the SEC. Kansas, Michigan, Ohio State, and Penn State would do nicely to 24 if Armageddon was lurking within the Big 10, which it is not.

That said I cannot see ESPN giving up the their market control which also gives them top ad rates for every state. It takes Virginia and Virginia Tech to dominate Virginia. It takes North Carolina and N.C. State to dominate North Carolina. It takes Clemson with South Carolina to dominate South Carolina and it takes Florida State with Florida to dominate the Sunshine State.

Oklahoma delivers the top viewership in Oklahoma. Texas and Texas A&M deliver the top viewership in Texas and with Oklahoma dominate DFW. Missouri dominates Missouri. Will Kansas deliver Kansas?

If ESPN follows suit it will take a pair in Virginia, a pair in North Carolina, FSU and Clemson. Then you might see the SEC pick up Kanas and perhaps seek to nab Miami to have 3 games a year in Florida which will appeal to the whole state.

I can see 20, and I can see 24. We'll have to wait and see what ESPN wants this time around. Obviously they wanted Texas and Oklahoma.

(05-22-2024 12:24 PM)Soobahk40050 Wrote:  

(05-21-2024 12:01 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-20-2024 08:04 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-20-2024 03:42 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(05-16-2024 09:43 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  I remember that. It was interesting in part because the mantra at the time was that the Big Ten owning half of their own network would pay huge dividends. I'm sure they made plenty of money, but the value of the network being driven down by the market was a story largely ignored. I want to say it was the next year that people stopped reporting on the SNL Kagan valuations of the conference networks. And last we knew, FOX was buying larger shares of the BTN. If ownership guaranteed higher value then that doesn't make much sense.

In fairness, I'm sure the SEC Network has dropped in value too, but they were not dropping as fast as the BTN back then. I'm honestly a little surprised the ACC Network got off the ground in that environment. Within 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if none of these conference networks even exist.

Changing subjects a bit, I don't expect Notre Dame to join the SEC and in part because of what you were saying about business deals being done regionally for the most part. Obviously, most ND donors would be doing business in the Midwest and Northeast where the Catholic populations are in a much higher concentration. The only real potential I see is if ND simply decides they want to thumb their nose at the Big Ten one last time and mostly to join the faster growing regions.

I think the Magnificent Seven gives us the best picture of who ESPN would value from the ACC.

Florida State, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, UVA, and Virginia Tech.

I don't see Duke in the mix simply because they will never truly prioritize football. While their basketball value is potentially immense, everyone else that has moved to a better league in recent years at least tries to be competitive in the sport. Duke, by contrast, isn't much different from Vanderbilt in that regard. Even Kansas has invested in football a lot in the last decade. Even if it's unlikely they have a high level program at any point, there is still a lot of value in being a draw for viewers and ticket buyers. Even a mediocre football program can still bring down a lot of cash. Basketball has the potential to be much more valuable, but there's too much money being left on the table if your school simply doesn't care about the football product.

I think there's something interesting in Coach K's recent comments as well. He wants a merger with the Big East and I don't think that simply represents his preference. To me, that sounds like what Duke would prefer to do in a world where they're not P2.

That 8th slot could easily be Kansas.

ND is an interesting one in that all the available evidence points towards them joining the B1G, yet they remain stubbornly independent. Their top priority is access to titles. More SEC schools win more titles than B1G schools. Heck, the ACC is ahead of the B1G in titles won over the past 50 years, football or basketball. It also makes logical sense that they'd want easy access to large Catholic populations. However, where is that growing, in the NE and Midwest or in the South and SE? The one overwhelming advantage that the B1G has on the SEC is academics, but ND just joined the AAU and thus has far less need of the BTAA.

I'd still say there's a 90% chance that ND ends up in the B1G if they have to join one of the P2, but I would have said 99% chance a couple of years ago.

It's been interesting sifting through this thread, from first reading the first page today to get a feel for what people were thinking back in 2013 all the way up to now. Even into February 2021, I saw scenarios discussing 2/3 of the Big 12 in various groupings, and VERY few thoughts of just OUT all by themselves. As we examine future possibilities for we might want from the ACC, I think it's worthwhile to consider all the digital ink that was spilled here discussing 2nd or 3rd level programs rather than just the Big Boys. It makes no sense to bring in A&M, Missouri, OU and UT, then follow that up with UVA and NC St.

What happens if in, say 2026, FSU and the ACC sort out their business and we get calls from FSU/Clemson/UNC. Who is our 4th, if we even decide that we need 20 instead of 19?

1st call: ND
2nd call: Michigan - the B1G tried to steal their title last year, that won't be quickly forgotten
3rd call: tOSU
4th call: PSU
5th call: Nebraska
6th-12th calls: Miami, VT, UVA, KU, ASU, CU, UArizona

The problem with the above, other than Miami and sort of VT, is that Ok St brings a whole lotta eyeballs. Any potential addition probably needs to at least be able to hang with Ok St and offer additional benefits, like, say Miami and/or VT. The SEC played chicken over Ok St and eventually won that staring contest, it seems quite unlikely that we're going to reconsider that decision now that the Conference is far stronger than it was a few years ago. Those others listed have potential to see big gains over the next few years, I'm curious to see if they continue to build or start to wither.

Now, that's quite the reading list. It would be fascinating to see in real time how this conversation evolved over the years. I only remember bits and pieces.

But you do make a good observation in that it was really only JR that stated Texas and Oklahoma would come as a pair. I always had trouble accepting it would be that simple. So if nothing else, that should inform our understanding now a little better.

I do remember in the aftermath of Texas/OU announcing that it was rumored the SEC was in discussion with Florida State, Clemson, Michigan and Ohio State...quite the combo. I don't doubt those discussions took place although it's entirely possible that Michigan and OSU used them as a means to understand the SEC's intentions better rather than as a genuine starting point for joining. They decided to try to build their own mega-conference instead of joining someone else's.

That could help us understand Notre Dame a little better too. They like their hegemony, they just exercise it differently than most.

I do think Florida State, Clemson, and North Carolina will end up in the SEC although I'm not confident on the 4th one. I think the SEC would like to get into VA, but who knows. Kansas also makes a ton of sense to me in part because I think ESPN wants full control of their content.

ATU is familiar with my methodology, most of which can be found in the thread "A Different Way to Look at Valuations." Texas and Oklahoma were Clearly #1 and #2 in the Big 12 and represented 56.7% of their total value. Kansas is a distant third but apart from the rest.

In the ACC it isn't quite so clear. Clemson and FSU are 24.7% of the total value. But Virginia Tech and North Carolina are the best draws in two states which combined almost equal adding another Florida.

Let's say the SEC has only 4 slots to offer now? Louisville is a better value than Virginia Tech and North Carolina, but they are in a small state as a duplicated market. Miami and Georgia Tech have more football value, but not overall value.

If the SEC is to add 4 Florida State, Clemson, North Carolina and Virginia Tech deliver the most. Sans FSU Miami delivers a part of the state where the SEC isn't strong.

But it would be 4 of those 5 from the ACC if we were only taking the best new markets and the top values.

And that's fine for the SEC. Kansas, Michigan, Ohio State, and Penn State would do nicely to 24 if Armageddon was lurking within the Big 10, which it is not.

That said I cannot see ESPN giving up the their market control which also gives them top ad rates for every state. It takes Virginia and Virginia Tech to dominate Virginia. It takes North Carolina and N.C. State to dominate North Carolina. It takes Clemson with South Carolina to dominate South Carolina and it takes Florida State with Florida to dominate the Sunshine State.

Oklahoma delivers the top viewership in Oklahoma. Texas and Texas A&M deliver the top viewership in Texas and with Oklahoma dominate DFW. Missouri dominates Missouri. Will Kansas deliver Kansas?

If ESPN follows suit it will take a pair in Virginia, a pair in North Carolina, FSU and Clemson. Then you might see the SEC pick up Kanas and perhaps seek to nab Miami to have 3 games a year in Florida which will appeal to the whole state.

I can see 20, and I can see 24. We'll have to wait and see what ESPN wants this time around. Obviously they wanted Texas and Oklahoma.

I made in post in the ACC thread about 22. Leads to an easy 3-6 rotation with H and H getting around the league in 6 years.

At 24, I mostly agree with your 8 at this point. Do Miami and Kansas get left out at 22? Or does that force the conference to choose one north Carolina and/or Virginia school?

(05-20-2024 03:42 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(05-16-2024 09:43 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-14-2024 10:34 AM)JRsec Wrote:  When Super conferences grow to 20 or 24 there won't be room in the schedules for in state rivals let alone next state rivals. Sankey knows this. Greg Fluguar and the Dude, and any other bloggers fishing for nickels and dimes on YouTube either don't know this or don't care because they are too busy making crap up.

One West Coast news reporter took one of my posts here for an article a few years back. One so called online magazine here in the South copied an entire post of mine changed literally one word and claimed it as their own a month after I posted it on this board. They've done similar things to a few other of our posters. There isn't an ounce of honesty in those jerks. Fluguar reads this board because 3 or 4 years ago before any of you knew who the hell the fat bastard was he cited my assessment of the Big 10's revenue from their conference network, which I cited from Kagan an accounting firm and called me a liar when he couldn't back up the fact that they lost a significant amount of value with cord cutting. He likely read my argument with Frank a couple of years ago in which I said that the Big 10 would eventually grow out of the PAC 12 and Frank denied it and called it looney.

I remember that. It was interesting in part because the mantra at the time was that the Big Ten owning half of their own network would pay huge dividends. I'm sure they made plenty of money, but the value of the network being driven down by the market was a story largely ignored. I want to say it was the next year that people stopped reporting on the SNL Kagan valuations of the conference networks. And last we knew, FOX was buying larger shares of the BTN. If ownership guaranteed higher value then that doesn't make much sense.

In fairness, I'm sure the SEC Network has dropped in value too, but they were not dropping as fast as the BTN back then. I'm honestly a little surprised the ACC Network got off the ground in that environment. Within 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if none of these conference networks even exist.

Changing subjects a bit, I don't expect Notre Dame to join the SEC and in part because of what you were saying about business deals being done regionally for the most part. Obviously, most ND donors would be doing business in the Midwest and Northeast where the Catholic populations are in a much higher concentration. The only real potential I see is if ND simply decides they want to thumb their nose at the Big Ten one last time and mostly to join the faster growing regions.

I think the Magnificent Seven gives us the best picture of who ESPN would value from the ACC.

Florida State, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, UVA, and Virginia Tech.

I don't see Duke in the mix simply because they will never truly prioritize football. While their basketball value is potentially immense, everyone else that has moved to a better league in recent years at least tries to be competitive in the sport. Duke, by contrast, isn't much different from Vanderbilt in that regard. Even Kansas has invested in football a lot in the last decade. Even if it's unlikely they have a high level program at any point, there is still a lot of value in being a draw for viewers and ticket buyers. Even a mediocre football program can still bring down a lot of cash. Basketball has the potential to be much more valuable, but there's too much money being left on the table if your school simply doesn't care about the football product.

I think there's something interesting in Coach K's recent comments as well. He wants a merger with the Big East and I don't think that simply represents his preference. To me, that sounds like what Duke would prefer to do in a world where they're not P2.

That 8th slot could easily be Kansas.

ND is an interesting one in that all the available evidence points towards them joining the B1G, yet they remain stubbornly independent. Their top priority is access to titles. More SEC schools win more titles than B1G schools. Heck, the ACC is ahead of the B1G in titles won over the past 50 years, football or basketball. It also makes logical sense that they'd want easy access to large Catholic populations. However, where is that growing, in the NE and Midwest or in the South and SE? The one overwhelming advantage that the B1G has on the SEC is academics, but ND just joined the AAU and thus has far less need of the BTAA.

I'd still say there's a 90% chance that ND ends up in the B1G if they have to join one of the P2, but I would have said 99% chance a couple of years ago.

It's been interesting sifting through this thread, from first reading the first page today to get a feel for what people were thinking back in 2013 all the way up to now. Even into February 2021, I saw scenarios discussing 2/3 of the Big 12 in various groupings, and VERY few thoughts of just OUT all by themselves. As we examine future possibilities for we might want from the ACC, I think it's worthwhile to consider all the digital ink that was spilled here discussing 2nd or 3rd level programs rather than just the Big Boys. It makes no sense to bring in A&M, Missouri, OU and UT, then follow that up with UVA and NC St.

What happens if in, say 2026, FSU and the ACC sort out their business and we get calls from FSU/Clemson/UNC. Who is our 4th, if we even decide that we need 20 instead of 19?

1st call: ND
2nd call: Michigan - the B1G tried to steal their title last year, that won't be quickly forgotten
3rd call: tOSU
4th call: PSU
5th call: Nebraska
6th-12th calls: Miami, VT, UVA, KU, ASU, CU, UArizona

The problem with the above, other than Miami and sort of VT, is that Ok St brings a whole lotta eyeballs. Any potential addition probably needs to at least be able to hang with Ok St and offer additional benefits, like, say Miami and/or VT. The SEC played chicken over Ok St and eventually won that staring contest, it seems quite unlikely that we're going to reconsider that decision now that the Conference is far stronger than it was a few years ago. Those others listed have potential to see big gains over the next few years, I'm curious to see if they continue to build or start to wither.

(05-23-2024 09:26 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-20-2024 03:42 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(05-16-2024 09:43 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-14-2024 10:34 AM)JRsec Wrote:  When Super conferences grow to 20 or 24 there won't be room in the schedules for in state rivals let alone next state rivals. Sankey knows this. Greg Fluguar and the Dude, and any other bloggers fishing for nickels and dimes on YouTube either don't know this or don't care because they are too busy making crap up.

One West Coast news reporter took one of my posts here for an article a few years back. One so called online magazine here in the South copied an entire post of mine changed literally one word and claimed it as their own a month after I posted it on this board. They've done similar things to a few other of our posters. There isn't an ounce of honesty in those jerks. Fluguar reads this board because 3 or 4 years ago before any of you knew who the hell the fat bastard was he cited my assessment of the Big 10's revenue from their conference network, which I cited from Kagan an accounting firm and called me a liar when he couldn't back up the fact that they lost a significant amount of value with cord cutting. He likely read my argument with Frank a couple of years ago in which I said that the Big 10 would eventually grow out of the PAC 12 and Frank denied it and called it looney.

I remember that. It was interesting in part because the mantra at the time was that the Big Ten owning half of their own network would pay huge dividends. I'm sure they made plenty of money, but the value of the network being driven down by the market was a story largely ignored. I want to say it was the next year that people stopped reporting on the SNL Kagan valuations of the conference networks. And last we knew, FOX was buying larger shares of the BTN. If ownership guaranteed higher value then that doesn't make much sense.

In fairness, I'm sure the SEC Network has dropped in value too, but they were not dropping as fast as the BTN back then. I'm honestly a little surprised the ACC Network got off the ground in that environment. Within 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if none of these conference networks even exist.

Changing subjects a bit, I don't expect Notre Dame to join the SEC and in part because of what you were saying about business deals being done regionally for the most part. Obviously, most ND donors would be doing business in the Midwest and Northeast where the Catholic populations are in a much higher concentration. The only real potential I see is if ND simply decides they want to thumb their nose at the Big Ten one last time and mostly to join the faster growing regions.

I think the Magnificent Seven gives us the best picture of who ESPN would value from the ACC.

Florida State, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, UVA, and Virginia Tech.

I don't see Duke in the mix simply because they will never truly prioritize football. While their basketball value is potentially immense, everyone else that has moved to a better league in recent years at least tries to be competitive in the sport. Duke, by contrast, isn't much different from Vanderbilt in that regard. Even Kansas has invested in football a lot in the last decade. Even if it's unlikely they have a high level program at any point, there is still a lot of value in being a draw for viewers and ticket buyers. Even a mediocre football program can still bring down a lot of cash. Basketball has the potential to be much more valuable, but there's too much money being left on the table if your school simply doesn't care about the football product.

I think there's something interesting in Coach K's recent comments as well. He wants a merger with the Big East and I don't think that simply represents his preference. To me, that sounds like what Duke would prefer to do in a world where they're not P2.

That 8th slot could easily be Kansas.

ND is an interesting one in that all the available evidence points towards them joining the B1G, yet they remain stubbornly independent. Their top priority is access to titles. More SEC schools win more titles than B1G schools. Heck, the ACC is ahead of the B1G in titles won over the past 50 years, football or basketball. It also makes logical sense that they'd want easy access to large Catholic populations. However, where is that growing, in the NE and Midwest or in the South and SE? The one overwhelming advantage that the B1G has on the SEC is academics, but ND just joined the AAU and thus has far less need of the BTAA.

I'd still say there's a 90% chance that ND ends up in the B1G if they have to join one of the P2, but I would have said 99% chance a couple of years ago.

It's been interesting sifting through this thread, from first reading the first page today to get a feel for what people were thinking back in 2013 all the way up to now. Even into February 2021, I saw scenarios discussing 2/3 of the Big 12 in various groupings, and VERY few thoughts of just OUT all by themselves. As we examine future possibilities for we might want from the ACC, I think it's worthwhile to consider all the digital ink that was spilled here discussing 2nd or 3rd level programs rather than just the Big Boys. It makes no sense to bring in A&M, Missouri, OU and UT, then follow that up with UVA and NC St.

What happens if in, say 2026, FSU and the ACC sort out their business and we get calls from FSU/Clemson/UNC. Who is our 4th, if we even decide that we need 20 instead of 19?

1st call: ND
2nd call: Michigan - the B1G tried to steal their title last year, that won't be quickly forgotten
3rd call: tOSU
4th call: PSU
5th call: Nebraska
6th-12th calls: Miami, VT, UVA, KU, ASU, CU, UArizona

The problem with the above, other than Miami and sort of VT, is that Ok St brings a whole lotta eyeballs. Any potential addition probably needs to at least be able to hang with Ok St and offer additional benefits, like, say Miami and/or VT. The SEC played chicken over Ok St and eventually won that staring contest, it seems quite unlikely that we're going to reconsider that decision now that the Conference is far stronger than it was a few years ago. Those others listed have potential to see big gains over the next few years, I'm curious to see if they continue to build or start to wither.

Interesting discussion. The ND talk is accurate. ND wants to stay a football independent. It doesn't want to join any conference, especially the Big Ten.

Staying independent is an ND institutional identity thing. Its ND's history, its tradition, its "origin story".

ND became "ND" because it had to barnstorm all over the country as a football independent.

Its a core thing for ND, something other fans largely fail to recognize or understand.

It is important to the identity of the school itself, much more than just for sports.

It is as important of a priority to it as is making the playoffs. They are co-equal Prime Goals for ND.

Independence was important enough for ND to leave tens of millions of dollars on the table for years.

ND wants to play all over the country, in Ireland once in a while and in NFL stadiums in large cities as much as possible.

For ND fans, "college football" is more like a Harlem Globetrotters tour than it is playing regional rivals for conference bragging rights.

Playing "conference mates" for a conference title entirely fails to move the needle for ND.

Where ND plays is as important to it, maybe more so, than who it plays.

This year, for example, ND will play in Mercedes Benz Stadium in Atlanta, at The Meadowlands in New Jersey and at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx.

Last year, it played in Dublin, Ireland. The year before, it played at Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas.

Then, there are the "Shamrock Series" games, where ND moves a home game to a city hundreds or thousands of miles from South Bend.

That flexibility is more important to ND than playing for a conference title.

ND has a number of major donors who send millions to ND who have conditioned future donations upon ND staying independent.

Opponents have historically been fungible. Drop Michigan, Michigan State and Purdue?

No problem. Just schedule some other opponents. FSU, Miami and Virginia Tech. SEC schools, maybe a Big 12 opponent. Voila.

ND will fight to remain a football independent at all costs.

If you want to understand ND, you must recognize these things.

(05-23-2024 08:24 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-23-2024 09:26 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-20-2024 03:42 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(05-16-2024 09:43 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-14-2024 10:34 AM)JRsec Wrote:  When Super conferences grow to 20 or 24 there won't be room in the schedules for in state rivals let alone next state rivals. Sankey knows this. Greg Fluguar and the Dude, and any other bloggers fishing for nickels and dimes on YouTube either don't know this or don't care because they are too busy making crap up.

One West Coast news reporter took one of my posts here for an article a few years back. One so called online magazine here in the South copied an entire post of mine changed literally one word and claimed it as their own a month after I posted it on this board. They've done similar things to a few other of our posters. There isn't an ounce of honesty in those jerks. Fluguar reads this board because 3 or 4 years ago before any of you knew who the hell the fat bastard was he cited my assessment of the Big 10's revenue from their conference network, which I cited from Kagan an accounting firm and called me a liar when he couldn't back up the fact that they lost a significant amount of value with cord cutting. He likely read my argument with Frank a couple of years ago in which I said that the Big 10 would eventually grow out of the PAC 12 and Frank denied it and called it looney.

I remember that. It was interesting in part because the mantra at the time was that the Big Ten owning half of their own network would pay huge dividends. I'm sure they made plenty of money, but the value of the network being driven down by the market was a story largely ignored. I want to say it was the next year that people stopped reporting on the SNL Kagan valuations of the conference networks. And last we knew, FOX was buying larger shares of the BTN. If ownership guaranteed higher value then that doesn't make much sense.

In fairness, I'm sure the SEC Network has dropped in value too, but they were not dropping as fast as the BTN back then. I'm honestly a little surprised the ACC Network got off the ground in that environment. Within 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if none of these conference networks even exist.

Changing subjects a bit, I don't expect Notre Dame to join the SEC and in part because of what you were saying about business deals being done regionally for the most part. Obviously, most ND donors would be doing business in the Midwest and Northeast where the Catholic populations are in a much higher concentration. The only real potential I see is if ND simply decides they want to thumb their nose at the Big Ten one last time and mostly to join the faster growing regions.

I think the Magnificent Seven gives us the best picture of who ESPN would value from the ACC.

Florida State, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, UVA, and Virginia Tech.

I don't see Duke in the mix simply because they will never truly prioritize football. While their basketball value is potentially immense, everyone else that has moved to a better league in recent years at least tries to be competitive in the sport. Duke, by contrast, isn't much different from Vanderbilt in that regard. Even Kansas has invested in football a lot in the last decade. Even if it's unlikely they have a high level program at any point, there is still a lot of value in being a draw for viewers and ticket buyers. Even a mediocre football program can still bring down a lot of cash. Basketball has the potential to be much more valuable, but there's too much money being left on the table if your school simply doesn't care about the football product.

I think there's something interesting in Coach K's recent comments as well. He wants a merger with the Big East and I don't think that simply represents his preference. To me, that sounds like what Duke would prefer to do in a world where they're not P2.

That 8th slot could easily be Kansas.

ND is an interesting one in that all the available evidence points towards them joining the B1G, yet they remain stubbornly independent. Their top priority is access to titles. More SEC schools win more titles than B1G schools. Heck, the ACC is ahead of the B1G in titles won over the past 50 years, football or basketball. It also makes logical sense that they'd want easy access to large Catholic populations. However, where is that growing, in the NE and Midwest or in the South and SE? The one overwhelming advantage that the B1G has on the SEC is academics, but ND just joined the AAU and thus has far less need of the BTAA.

I'd still say there's a 90% chance that ND ends up in the B1G if they have to join one of the P2, but I would have said 99% chance a couple of years ago.

It's been interesting sifting through this thread, from first reading the first page today to get a feel for what people were thinking back in 2013 all the way up to now. Even into February 2021, I saw scenarios discussing 2/3 of the Big 12 in various groupings, and VERY few thoughts of just OUT all by themselves. As we examine future possibilities for we might want from the ACC, I think it's worthwhile to consider all the digital ink that was spilled here discussing 2nd or 3rd level programs rather than just the Big Boys. It makes no sense to bring in A&M, Missouri, OU and UT, then follow that up with UVA and NC St.

What happens if in, say 2026, FSU and the ACC sort out their business and we get calls from FSU/Clemson/UNC. Who is our 4th, if we even decide that we need 20 instead of 19?

1st call: ND
2nd call: Michigan - the B1G tried to steal their title last year, that won't be quickly forgotten
3rd call: tOSU
4th call: PSU
5th call: Nebraska
6th-12th calls: Miami, VT, UVA, KU, ASU, CU, UArizona

The problem with the above, other than Miami and sort of VT, is that Ok St brings a whole lotta eyeballs. Any potential addition probably needs to at least be able to hang with Ok St and offer additional benefits, like, say Miami and/or VT. The SEC played chicken over Ok St and eventually won that staring contest, it seems quite unlikely that we're going to reconsider that decision now that the Conference is far stronger than it was a few years ago. Those others listed have potential to see big gains over the next few years, I'm curious to see if they continue to build or start to wither.

Interesting discussion. The ND talk is accurate. ND wants to stay a football independent. It doesn't want to join any conference, especially the Big Ten.

Staying independent is an ND institutional identity thing. Its ND's history, its tradition, its "origin story".

ND became "ND" because it had to barnstorm all over the country as a football independent.

Its a core thing for ND, something other fans largely fail to recognize or understand.

It is important to the identity of the school itself, much more than just for sports.

It is as important of a priority to it as is making the playoffs. They are co-equal Prime Goals for ND.

Independence was important enough for ND to leave tens of millions of dollars on the table for years.

ND wants to play all over the country, in Ireland once in a while and in NFL stadiums in large cities as much as possible.

For ND fans, "college football" is more like a Harlem Globetrotters tour than it is playing regional rivals for conference bragging rights.

Playing "conference mates" for a conference title entirely fails to move the needle for ND.

Where ND plays is as important to it, maybe more so, than who it plays.

This year, for example, ND will play in Mercedes Benz Stadium in Atlanta, at The Meadowlands in New Jersey and at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx.

Last year, it played in Dublin, Ireland. The year before, it played at Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas.

Then, there are the "Shamrock Series" games, where ND moves a home game to a city hundreds or thousands of miles from South Bend.

That flexibility is more important to ND than playing for a conference title.

ND has a number of major donors who send millions to ND who have conditioned future donations upon ND staying independent.

Opponents have historically been fungible. Drop Michigan, Michigan State and Purdue?

No problem. Just schedule some other opponents. FSU, Miami and Virginia Tech. SEC schools, maybe a Big 12 opponent. Voila.

ND will fight to remain a football independent at all costs.

If you want to understand ND, you must recognize these things.

You may remember that I've argued in the past that one of these days, economics would force Notre Dame into a conference.

I understand what you're saying in the above post, but it does represent preference as opposed to necessity. I have no doubt that ND will go kicking and screaming into the night before it joins a league, but the time is coming when the only choice they'll have is which sphere they decide to orbit. Jack Swarbrick basically said that himself.

Whatever order is coming in the near future, the SEC and Big Ten will become those two spheres. From a practicality standpoint, Notre Dame will have to choose to compete at the highest level and do so within the established framework or downgrade their athletic program. I wouldn't think they'd choose the latter just to maintain independence because as you said, competing for championships is also important.

The economics side of the equation is simple...the day is coming when Notre Dame's preferred model simply won't work financially. They'll always have amazing donors, of course, but access to the highest competition will involve entanglement with an economic model that ND can't control. Networks will favor the two spheres which means match-ups and time slots will too. The more the Big Ten and SEC seek to schedule within or with each other, the fewer quality spots will be left over for ND. Recruits and the endorsement dollars they chase will revolve around the emerging model as opposed to the remnants of the old.

Whether any of us like the new world or not, nothing is stopping it at this point and today's settlement just moves the ball ever further in that direction.

(05-24-2024 09:57 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-23-2024 08:24 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-23-2024 09:26 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Interesting discussion. The ND talk is accurate. ND wants to stay a football independent. It doesn't want to join any conference, especially the Big Ten.

Staying independent is an ND institutional identity thing. Its ND's history, its tradition, its "origin story".

ND became "ND" because it had to barnstorm all over the country as a football independent.

Its a core thing for ND, something other fans largely fail to recognize or understand.

It is important to the identity of the school itself, much more than just for sports.

It is as important of a priority to it as is making the playoffs. They are co-equal Prime Goals for ND.

Independence was important enough for ND to leave tens of millions of dollars on the table for years.

ND wants to play all over the country, in Ireland once in a while and in NFL stadiums in large cities as much as possible.

For ND fans, "college football" is more like a Harlem Globetrotters tour than it is playing regional rivals for conference bragging rights.

Playing "conference mates" for a conference title entirely fails to move the needle for ND.

Where ND plays is as important to it, maybe more so, than who it plays.

This year, for example, ND will play in Mercedes Benz Stadium in Atlanta, at The Meadowlands in New Jersey and at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx.

Last year, it played in Dublin, Ireland. The year before, it played at Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas.

Then, there are the "Shamrock Series" games, where ND moves a home game to a city hundreds or thousands of miles from South Bend.

That flexibility is more important to ND than playing for a conference title.

ND has a number of major donors who send millions to ND who have conditioned future donations upon ND staying independent.

Opponents have historically been fungible. Drop Michigan, Michigan State and Purdue?

No problem. Just schedule some other opponents. FSU, Miami and Virginia Tech. SEC schools, maybe a Big 12 opponent. Voila.

ND will fight to remain a football independent at all costs.

If you want to understand ND, you must recognize these things.

You may remember that I've argued in the past that one of these days, economics would force Notre Dame into a conference.

I understand what you're saying in the above post, but it does represent preference as opposed to necessity. I have no doubt that ND will go kicking and screaming into the night before it joins a league, but the time is coming when the only choice they'll have is which sphere they decide to orbit. Jack Swarbrick basically said that himself.

Whatever order is coming in the near future, the SEC and Big Ten will become those two spheres. From a practicality standpoint, Notre Dame will have to choose to compete at the highest level and do so within the established framework or downgrade their athletic program. I wouldn't think they'd choose the latter just to maintain independence because as you said, competing for championships is also important.

The economics side of the equation is simple...the day is coming when Notre Dame's preferred model simply won't work financially. They'll always have amazing donors, of course, but access to the highest competition will involve entanglement with an economic model that ND can't control. Networks will favor the two spheres which means match-ups and time slots will too. The more the Big Ten and SEC seek to schedule within or with each other, the fewer quality spots will be left over for ND. Recruits and the endorsement dollars they chase will revolve around the emerging model as opposed to the remnants of the old.

Whether any of us like the new world or not, nothing is stopping it at this point and today's settlement just moves the ball ever further in that direction.

Right now, ND gets the following:

--Fifty to sixty million a year from NBC.

--Twenty two million a year from ESPN/ACC.

--Thirteen to nineteen million a year from the CFP, there is a six million dollar independents only bonus every year that ND makes the playoffs, a base payment if not.

ND was third in the nation revenues in the last EADA filling.

That was before the new NBC deal adds thirty to forty million a year more to ND.


So, ND is doing quite well financially.

It got all of the above without football having t join a conference and without the payment of an exit fee, a GOR buyout or without having to file a lawsuit and pay any attorneys fees.

(05-24-2024 08:02 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-24-2024 09:57 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-23-2024 08:24 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(05-23-2024 09:26 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Interesting discussion. The ND talk is accurate. ND wants to stay a football independent. It doesn't want to join any conference, especially the Big Ten.

Staying independent is an ND institutional identity thing. Its ND's history, its tradition, its "origin story".

ND became "ND" because it had to barnstorm all over the country as a football independent.

Its a core thing for ND, something other fans largely fail to recognize or understand.

It is important to the identity of the school itself, much more than just for sports.

It is as important of a priority to it as is making the playoffs. They are co-equal Prime Goals for ND.

Independence was important enough for ND to leave tens of millions of dollars on the table for years.

ND wants to play all over the country, in Ireland once in a while and in NFL stadiums in large cities as much as possible.

For ND fans, "college football" is more like a Harlem Globetrotters tour than it is playing regional rivals for conference bragging rights.

Playing "conference mates" for a conference title entirely fails to move the needle for ND.

Where ND plays is as important to it, maybe more so, than who it plays.

This year, for example, ND will play in Mercedes Benz Stadium in Atlanta, at The Meadowlands in New Jersey and at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx.

Last year, it played in Dublin, Ireland. The year before, it played at Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas.

Then, there are the "Shamrock Series" games, where ND moves a home game to a city hundreds or thousands of miles from South Bend.

That flexibility is more important to ND than playing for a conference title.

ND has a number of major donors who send millions to ND who have conditioned future donations upon ND staying independent.

Opponents have historically been fungible. Drop Michigan, Michigan State and Purdue?

No problem. Just schedule some other opponents. FSU, Miami and Virginia Tech. SEC schools, maybe a Big 12 opponent. Voila.

ND will fight to remain a football independent at all costs.

If you want to understand ND, you must recognize these things.

You may remember that I've argued in the past that one of these days, economics would force Notre Dame into a conference.

I understand what you're saying in the above post, but it does represent preference as opposed to necessity. I have no doubt that ND will go kicking and screaming into the night before it joins a league, but the time is coming when the only choice they'll have is which sphere they decide to orbit. Jack Swarbrick basically said that himself.

Whatever order is coming in the near future, the SEC and Big Ten will become those two spheres. From a practicality standpoint, Notre Dame will have to choose to compete at the highest level and do so within the established framework or downgrade their athletic program. I wouldn't think they'd choose the latter just to maintain independence because as you said, competing for championships is also important.

The economics side of the equation is simple...the day is coming when Notre Dame's preferred model simply won't work financially. They'll always have amazing donors, of course, but access to the highest competition will involve entanglement with an economic model that ND can't control. Networks will favor the two spheres which means match-ups and time slots will too. The more the Big Ten and SEC seek to schedule within or with each other, the fewer quality spots will be left over for ND. Recruits and the endorsement dollars they chase will revolve around the emerging model as opposed to the remnants of the old.

Whether any of us like the new world or not, nothing is stopping it at this point and today's settlement just moves the ball ever further in that direction.

Right now, ND gets the following:

--Fifty to sixty million a year from NBC.

--Twenty two million a year from ESPN/ACC.

--Thirteen to nineteen million a year from the CFP, there is a six million dollar independents only bonus every year that ND makes the playoffs, a base payment if not.

ND was third in the nation revenues in the last EADA filling.

That was before the new NBC deal adds thirty to forty million a year more to ND.


So, ND is doing quite well financially.

It got all of the above without football having t join a conference and without the payment of an exit fee, a GOR buyout or without having to file a lawsuit and pay any attorneys fees.

Which misses the point.

No one said Notre Dame is struggling financially, certainly not me. The point is that the world is changing. The economic model and the institutional structure of college athletics itself is being altered in more fundamental ways than has ever occurred.

Independence could be rewarded quite well through most of the history of the game, but that doesn't guarantee anything. Heck, the PAC 12 was one of the oldest and definitely one of the richest conferences for most of its history and now it doesn't even exist. We all know Notre Dame is inherently valuable, but they are not valuable enough to steer the direction of the sport itself, no one is. Jack Swarbrick himself said that the world of college athletics is coming to a place where everyone will revolve around one of two spheres. He was basically the first figure in college athletics to openly admit this and the fact that his vantage point comes from Notre Dame lends even more credibility to his observation.

It's not a matte of 'if,' it's a matter of 'when.'

The Notre Dame faithful can root their identity in independence if they choose and one of these days, the rest of college athletics will leave them behind.