I count seven blue bloods. Trying to be as unbiased as I can, here is my take on the overall brand of the seven relative to each other.

1. Duke
2. Kentucky
3. UNC
4. Kansas
5. UCLA
6. UConn
7. Indiana

UConn is ahead of UCLA now. Probably ahead of Kansas


UNC ahead of Duke

(04-11-2024 09:45 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  I count seven blue bloods. Trying to be as unbiased as I can, here is my take on the overall brand of the seven relative to each other.

1. Duke
2. Kentucky
3. UNC
4. Kansas
5. UCLA
6. UConn
7. Indiana

Note that IU is the only one who doesn't wear blue. Basketball schools wear blue. Football schools wear red!

From Wiki-all time tourney appearances-top 25:
BYU the only one on the list who has never made a final 4.

Tourney Team final 4 finals Champs
61 Kentucky 17 12 8
53 N/ Carolina 21 12 6
51 Kansas 15 10 4
50 UCLA 19 12 11
46 Duke 17 11 5
41 Indiana 8 6 5
40 Villanova 7 3 3
39 Louisville 8 2 2
38 Texas 3 0 0
37 Michigan St 10 3 2
37 Notre Dame 1 0 0
37 Syracuse 6 3 1
36 Marquette 3 2 1
36 Uconn 7 6 6
35 Arkansas 6 2 1
34 Arizona 4 2 1
34 Illinois 5 1 0
34 Purdue 3 2 0
33 Cincinnati 6 3 2
33 Oklahoma 5 2 0
33 Temple 2 0 0
32 Kansas St 4 1 0
31 BYU 0 0 0
31 Georgetown 5 4 1
31 Ohio State 10 5 1
31 West Virginia 2 1 0

I'd rank Gonzaga ahead of Indiana but below UConn today. 25 straight NCAAT appearances and the most NCAAT wins by a decent margin over the past decade gets you into the club. UConn needs more consistency to start contending with the top 5 imo.

(04-11-2024 11:21 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  I'd rank Gonzaga ahead of Indiana but below UConn today. 25 straight NCAAT appearances and the most NCAAT wins by a decent margin over the past decade gets you into the club. UConn needs more consistency to start contending with the top 5 imo.

6 Titles in 25 years is not consistent enough?

Gonzaga needs to win a title first before entering the chat.

UConn is impressive, and climbing rapidly. In terms of national championships, they’re amongst the best programs.

Nevertheless, IMO there are still only five blue bloods. These are teams that have differentiated themselves over many generations…
Most Final Four teams:
1) UNC @ 21
2) Duke, Kentucky & UCLA @ 17
5) Kansas @ 16
No one else is above 10 FF appearances.

Most NCAAT wins:
1) UNC @ 132
2) Kentucky @ 131
3) Duke @ 118
4) Kansas @ 116
5) UCLA @ 114
Next closest team has 73 wins.

Blue blood strength is championships (national & conference) and win percentage over a large period of time. None of that is further defined.

My Top 10 All-Time List (Blue Bloods in Blue):
1. Kentucky
2. North Carolina
3. Duke
4. Kansas
5. Connecticut
6. UCLA
7. Michigan St
8. Indiana
9. Louisville
10. Villanova

#7 - #10 don't have the staying power (yet or anymore) but are right there.

(04-11-2024 11:29 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(04-11-2024 11:21 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  I'd rank Gonzaga ahead of Indiana but below UConn today. 25 straight NCAAT appearances and the most NCAAT wins by a decent margin over the past decade gets you into the club. UConn needs more consistency to start contending with the top 5 imo.

6 Titles in 25 years is not consistent enough?

Gonzaga needs to win a title first before entering the chat.

6 titles in 25 years is amazing, but UConn is the only new blue blood (new blood? I like that) that doesn't make the tourney every year or almost every year. By my count they've missed 7 NCAAT of the last 17, and they won 0 games in 3 others. That's more "modern day Indiana" than "Bobby Knight Indiana". They're like a weird combination of Wooden's UCLA and Memphis.

Say what you like about the "6 titles in 25 years", but of those 6 titles, this is the only year other than perhaps '98 in which they were clearly the best team for most of the year. They've only been a 1 seed while winning the title twice. There's been a LOT of luck involved in most of those titles. That takes nothing away from them, and I'm not saying that they don't belong in the conversation, but if we're putting up their resume against all the others on this list then we need to look at the complete resume rather than just one thing on it.

(04-11-2024 11:30 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  UConn is impressive, and climbing rapidly. In terms of national championships, they’re amongst the best programs.

Nevertheless, IMO there are still only five blue bloods. These are teams that have differentiated themselves over many generations…
Most Final Four teams:
1) UNC @ 21
2) Duke, Kentucky & UCLA @ 17
5) Kansas @ 16
No one else is above 10 FF appearances.

Most NCAAT wins:
1) UNC @ 132
2) Kentucky @ 131
3) Duke @ 118
4) Kansas @ 116
5) UCLA @ 114
Next closest team has 73 wins.

Great synopsis.

Indiana, 5 coaches since Bobby Knight and none got past the Sweet 16. I know its all time brands but they are slipping and will be out of the top 10 some day. Winning seasons alone isnt enough over there so the current coach entering his 4th season is on the hot seat.

Blue bloods by rank

1 Kansas
2 Kentucky
3 North Carolina

If you can't trace your coaching lineage back to James Naismith, your blood is red.

(04-11-2024 12:06 PM)darkdragon99 Wrote:  Indiana, 5 coaches since Bobby Knight and none got past the Sweet 16. I know its all time brands but they are slipping and will be out of the top 10 some day. Winning seasons alone isnt enough over there so the current coach entering his 4th season is on the hot seat.

Mike Davis was in the 2002 Championship game and lost to Maryland

(04-11-2024 12:06 PM)darkdragon99 Wrote:  Indiana, 5 coaches since Bobby Knight and none got past the Sweet 16. I know its all time brands but they are slipping and will be out of the top 10 some day. Winning seasons alone isnt enough over there so the current coach entering his 4th season is on the hot seat.

Indiana basketball is in a slightly better place than Nebraska football. They both have amazing history and passionate fan bases. They’ll both remain as very attractive media brands. There is no longer mystique that will fool pundits into selecting them in pre-season hype polls. Indiana basically wins around 50% of its conference games…which keeps hope alive for longtime fans. IMO, it will still take time for Indiana to drop out of the top 10 programs.

Bluebloods
Duke
North Carolina
Kentucky
Kansas
UCLA

Newbloods
UConn

(04-11-2024 12:06 PM)darkdragon99 Wrote:  Indiana, 5 coaches since Bobby Knight and none got past the Sweet 16. I know its all time brands but they are slipping and will be out of the top 10 some day. Winning seasons alone isnt enough over there so the current coach entering his 4th season is on the hot seat.

Indiana is definitely way down by historical standards, but Indiana has gotten to the Sweet Sixteen 4 times since Knight left, including one National Championship Game/Final Four appearance.

I think the terminology matters. The “best program today” is different than “blue blood”. The whole point of defining a blue blood is that they had a lot of achievements in the far past where success has crossed multiple generations. Indiana’s blue blood status can’t be taken away from them: the fact that their top achievements started coming generations ago is the *point* of defining a blue blood.

UConn is the best program today, but they’re not really a “blue blood” yet if people actually look at the definition, just as Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg aren’t blue bloods, either. In 2040-50 or so, the UConn achievements will have been far enough in the past where they’re actually a blue blood under the correct definition. You need time to pass, not just recent achievements. (In fact, the recency of achievements goes against the whole definition of blue blood status.) You need people that are grandparent-aged to be able to say, “That team was great when I was growing up” before you’re actually a blue blood. The passage of time is a critical component here beyond the achievements.

(04-11-2024 03:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-11-2024 12:06 PM)darkdragon99 Wrote:  Indiana, 5 coaches since Bobby Knight and none got past the Sweet 16. I know its all time brands but they are slipping and will be out of the top 10 some day. Winning seasons alone isnt enough over there so the current coach entering his 4th season is on the hot seat.

Indiana is definitely way down by historical standards, but Indiana has gotten to the Sweet Sixteen 4 times since Knight left, including one National Championship Game/Final Four appearance.

I think the terminology matters. The “best program today” is different than “blue blood”. The whole point of defining a blue blood is that they had a lot of achievements in the far past where success has crossed multiple generations. Indiana’s blue blood status can’t be taken away from them: the fact that their top achievements started coming generations ago is the *point* of defining a blue blood.

UConn is the best program today, but they’re not really a “blue blood” yet if people actually look at the definition, just as Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg aren’t blue bloods, either. In 2040-50 or so, the UConn achievements will have been far enough in the past where they’re actually a blue blood under the correct definition. You need time to pass, not just recent achievements. (In fact, the recency of achievements goes against the whole definition of blue blood status.) You need people that are grandparent-aged to be able to say, “That team was great when I was growing up” before you’re actually a blue blood. The passage of time is a critical component here beyond the achievements.

I don't get why Indiana was ever considered a blue blood.

Historically, they're not even clearly the top Big Ten school.

# of Big Ten Basketball championships
26 - Purdue
22 - Indiana
20 - Ohio State
20 - Wisconsin
18 - Illinois
16 - Michigan State


All-time wins
1947 - Purdue
1928 - Indiana
1905 - Illinois
1868 - Ohio State

Final Fours
10 - Michigan State
10 - Ohio State
8 - Indiana
6 - Michigan
5 - Illinois

(04-11-2024 03:32 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-11-2024 03:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-11-2024 12:06 PM)darkdragon99 Wrote:  Indiana, 5 coaches since Bobby Knight and none got past the Sweet 16. I know its all time brands but they are slipping and will be out of the top 10 some day. Winning seasons alone isnt enough over there so the current coach entering his 4th season is on the hot seat.

Indiana is definitely way down by historical standards, but Indiana has gotten to the Sweet Sixteen 4 times since Knight left, including one National Championship Game/Final Four appearance.

I think the terminology matters. The “best program today” is different than “blue blood”. The whole point of defining a blue blood is that they had a lot of achievements in the far past where success has crossed multiple generations. Indiana’s blue blood status can’t be taken away from them: the fact that their top achievements started coming generations ago is the *point* of defining a blue blood.

UConn is the best program today, but they’re not really a “blue blood” yet if people actually look at the definition, just as Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg aren’t blue bloods, either. In 2040-50 or so, the UConn achievements will have been far enough in the past where they’re actually a blue blood under the correct definition. You need time to pass, not just recent achievements. (In fact, the recency of achievements goes against the whole definition of blue blood status.) You need people that are grandparent-aged to be able to say, “That team was great when I was growing up” before you’re actually a blue blood. The passage of time is a critical component here beyond the achievements.

I don't get why Indiana was ever considered a blue blood.

Historically, they're not even clearly the top Big Ten school.

# of Big Ten Basketball championships
26 - Purdue
22 - Indiana
20 - Ohio State
20 - Wisconsin
18 - Illinois
16 - Michigan State


All-time wins
1947 - Purdue
1928 - Indiana
1905 - Illinois
1868 - Ohio State

Final Fours
10 - Michigan State
10 - Ohio State
8 - Indiana
6 - Michigan
5 - Illinois

IU is tops all-time in the Big Ten (for whatever it's worth) based on multiple metrics used in the below ranking.

Something else to consider: Indiana can be having a losing season — yet still essentially pack Simon Skjodt Assembly Hall. I doubt those other Big Ten programs could do so.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...-all-time/

(04-11-2024 02:20 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Bluebloods
Duke
North Carolina
Kentucky
Kansas
UCLA

Newbloods
UConn

Curious how Duke can count but UConn doesn't? Duke had made 4 Final Fours and 2 championship games, with zero titles, until becoming elite under one coach who's now gone. UConn has more titles in a shorter time period than the Coach K era and under three different coaches. UConn is beyond "new money" at this point, if there's a club, they're in it.

For my list

1) Kentucky
2) Kansas
3) UConn
4) UNC
5) Duke

Indiana and UCLA are like Nebraska football. If they turn it around and catch magic, they can regain blue blood status but they've been irrelevant far to long to have it now.

(04-11-2024 02:10 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-11-2024 12:06 PM)darkdragon99 Wrote:  Indiana, 5 coaches since Bobby Knight and none got past the Sweet 16. I know its all time brands but they are slipping and will be out of the top 10 some day. Winning seasons alone isnt enough over there so the current coach entering his 4th season is on the hot seat.

Indiana basketball is in a slightly better place than Nebraska football. They both have amazing history and passionate fan bases. They’ll both remain as very attractive media brands. There is no longer mystique that will fool pundits into selecting them in pre-season hype polls. Indiana basically wins around 50% of its conference games…which keeps hope alive for longtime fans. IMO, it will still take time for Indiana to drop out of the top 10 programs.

Both Indiana basketball and Nebraska football offer dedicated and passionate fan bases. The key difference is that Nebraska must face two challenges that are beyond its control: A geographic location and state/general-area demographics that don't lend themselves to the Husker football program easily luring elite talent.

(04-11-2024 03:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-11-2024 12:06 PM)darkdragon99 Wrote:  Indiana, 5 coaches since Bobby Knight and none got past the Sweet 16. I know its all time brands but they are slipping and will be out of the top 10 some day. Winning seasons alone isnt enough over there so the current coach entering his 4th season is on the hot seat.

Indiana is definitely way down by historical standards, but Indiana has gotten to the Sweet Sixteen 4 times since Knight left, including one National Championship Game/Final Four appearance.

I think the terminology matters. The “best program today” is different than “blue blood”. The whole point of defining a blue blood is that they had a lot of achievements in the far past where success has crossed multiple generations. Indiana’s blue blood status can’t be taken away from them: the fact that their top achievements started coming generations ago is the *point* of defining a blue blood.

UConn is the best program today, but they’re not really a “blue blood” yet if people actually look at the definition, just as Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg aren’t blue bloods, either. In 2040-50 or so, the UConn achievements will have been far enough in the past where they’re actually a blue blood under the correct definition. You need time to pass, not just recent achievements. (In fact, the recency of achievements goes against the whole definition of blue blood status.) You need people that are grandparent-aged to be able to say, “That team was great when I was growing up” before you’re actually a blue blood. The passage of time is a critical component here beyond the achievements.

Is Duke? Their first title was less than a decade before UConn's. Since then, UConn has 6 and Duke has 5.