(04-06-2024 01:41 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(04-06-2024 06:27 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(04-05-2024 09:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  The Missouri Valley had an interesting history. They have members in all the P4 and 2 G5 (3 if you count MAC soccer affiliates).
4 Big 12 (ISU, KU, KSU, OK St.), 2 SEC (OU, MU) and 2 Big 10 (NU, Iowa-only 2 years) were members prior to the Big 8 splitoff in 1928, although Oklahoma St. stayed until 1956.
2 more Big 12 (Houston-51-59, Cincinnati-57-70), an ACC (Louisville-63-75), CUSA (NMSU 70-83), 4 AAC (UNT 57-75, Tulsa 35-96, Memphis-68-73, Wichita 49-2017) were members at various times in the peak years of 50s to mid 70s.
They also have former members in 8 different non-fbs conferences in Division I, II and III.

The Southern Conference spawned the SEC in 1933 and ACC in 1953, so they have teams in all the p4 and 2 G5. They have 10 SEC schools as former members, 8 ACC, 1 Big 12 (WVU), 1 Big 10 (MD), 1 AAC (Tulane) and, as I'm sure the OP knows, 3 Sun Belt-Marshall, GSU, App. St.

Living on the east coast, I had no idea the Missouri Valley had that history. Great info.

Looking at the MVC timeline, I'm surprised Tulsa was able to attach itself to the CUSA-to-AAC group of schools. They stayed in the MVC long after all of the other current FBS schools left.

The five most recent FBS schools who left were Cincinnati (1970), Memphis (1973), Texas State (1975), Louisville (1975), New Mexico State (1983)...then Tulsa long after (1996).

Tulsa was playing Division I-A football in the MVC when no one else was. The rest of the conference had either dropped football or were playing in I-AA. Tulsa's schedule was suspect as a result, and had a 10-1 team miss a bowl game one year. They chose to stay in Division I-A, even playing as an independent for a few years.

When the WAC expanded upon the demise of the SWC, Tulsa was able to get into that. Once they were in a FBS conference, they were able to stay at that level, eventually moving to C-USA and then the AAC. They're not in Texas, but close enough to it and recruit it heavily.

West Texas A&M was playing indy at 1A level and the rest of the sports in MVC. Football was getting expensive and needed a home for them, and they dropped down to D2. If they hold on a little longer? They could have been part of CUSA with UTEP.

A lot of folks don’t realize how many programs owe their entry into FBS to the Big West and it’s wonky membership:

Direct:
UNLV, Nevada, UNT, Boise St, Idaho

Had the Big West schools not been above the cut line, there would be no WAC for UTSA and Texas St to join.

The depletion of the Big West eventually led to SBC members parking as affiliates, which led to the SBC’s take over of what was once the Big West football, so they are indirectly responsible for all the schools that moved up with the intention of being in the SBC:

MTSU, Troy, FAU, FIU, WKU, GA St, GA So, App St, Coastal Carolina, JMU

You could even say, had SBC come into existence, they would not raided C-USA in 2022, necessitating the additions of Sam Houston St, Jacksonville St, Kennesaw St, and Delaware.

(04-06-2024 04:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  A lot of folks don’t realize how many programs owe their entry into FBS to the Big West and it’s wonky membership:

Direct:
UNLV, Nevada, UNT, Boise St, Idaho

Had the Big West schools not been above the cut line, there would be no WAC for UTSA and Texas St to join.

The depletion of the Big West eventually led to SBC members parking as affiliates, which led to the SBC’s take over of what was once the Big West football, so they are indirectly responsible for all the schools that moved up with the intention of being in the SBC:

MTSU, Troy, FAU, FIU, WKU, GA St, GA So, App St, Coastal Carolina, JMU

You could even say, had SBC come into existence, they would not raided C-USA in 2022, necessitating the additions of Sam Houston St, Jacksonville St, Kennesaw St, and Delaware.

There was one school that used to be in the SBC, and if they stayed with them until they restarted their program? It would be Lamar. Lamar would play in FCS and then moved up. Just like South Alabama did.

(04-05-2024 09:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  The Missouri Valley had an interesting history. They have members in all the P4 and 2 G5 (3 if you count MAC soccer affiliates).
4 Big 12 (ISU, KU, KSU, OK St.), 2 SEC (OU, MU) and 2 Big 10 (NU, Iowa-only 2 years) were members prior to the Big 8 splitoff in 1928, although Oklahoma St. stayed until 1956.
2 more Big 12 (Houston-51-59, Cincinnati-57-70), an ACC (Louisville-63-75), CUSA (NMSU 70-83), 4 AAC (UNT 57-75, Tulsa 35-96, Memphis-68-73, Wichita 49-2017) were members at various times in the peak years of 50s to mid 70s.
They also have former members in 8 different non-fbs conferences in Division I, II and III.

The Southern Conference spawned the SEC in 1933 and ACC in 1953, so they have teams in all the p4 and 2 G5. They have 10 SEC schools as former members, 8 ACC, 1 Big 12 (WVU), 1 Big 10 (MD), 1 AAC (Tulane) and, as I'm sure the OP knows, 3 Sun Belt-Marshall, GSU, App. St.

bullet: I thought that, at the time of leaving MVC, the Big 8 was Big 6 at the time, later adding OSU, then Colorado 2 or 3 years after that. I've always thought it unusual that for a year or two, Iowa was in both the Big Ten (may still have been the Western Conference at the time, not sure) and the MVC before belonging solely to the Big Ten. I'm sure Iowa has no regrets.

(04-06-2024 12:15 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(04-05-2024 09:24 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Here's our AD's comments at the time:

"We have closer ties to Chicago, where the rest of the MAC has no recognition. I`m sure some of them are happy to see us leave.”

"As one of the nation`s 40 largest universities, Northern Illinois should be more competitive, with more appeal to the Chicago market. That couldn`t be done from our position on the western fringe of the MAC."

The administration also announced goals of expanding 31k-seat Huskie Stadium and a new basketball arena with the long-term goal of joining the Big Eight, and claimed our 25k enrollment was too big for the MAC.

NIU was run by the equivalent of drunken message boarders back then.

Northern Illinois's open talk of joining the Big 8 someday was silly, and leaving the MAC was a huge mistake. (The Huskies went 9-2 a few years after they left but did not play in a bowl game because they were an independent and no one would take them.)

There was a bit more going on, though.

The struggle by some MAC members to meet Division I-A attendance requirements in the early 1980s led to a lot of acrimony among members, including rumors of an exodus by some members of the MAC to separate themselves from the schools struggling to meet attendance requirements. This saga cumulated in a 1984-85 effort to expel Eastern Michigan.

Assuming EMU would be expelled and that they'd only have to play eight conference games in 1985, Northern Illinois scheduled three Big Ten teams in nonconference play on their 11-game schedule. When EMU survived the expulsion effort, the MAC went back to a nine-game conference schedule.

Northern Illinois balked. They wanted to keep their Big Ten games. So, they refused to play at Kent State. The MAC's commissioner, Jim Lessig, had to step in and talk NIU into paying for Texas-El Paso to visit Kent State so the Flashes could play out an 11-game schedule.

With bad blood all around, Northern Illinois decided to leave the MAC after the 1985 football season. Lessig made fun of them on their way out. "I think Northern Illinois made a mistake," he said. "You have to question the wisdom of their move when you see independent teams struggling to get back into conferences across the country. This is not sour grapes, but when Northern joined the conference, we were hoping for more media exposure in Chicago. It never happened, except for a few SportsVision telecasts of NIU games with other conference teams."

My source on this is a great Reddit post that appears well researched.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/8t...cision_to/

An epilogue. Northern Illinois lost all three of those Big Ten games: 38-17 at Wisconsin, 48-20 at Iowa, and 38-16 at Northwestern.

Kent State beat Texas-El Paso.

NIU is kind of an Uncle Rico program. They had a vision of being way bigger than what they were. UNT is another—they thought for sure the SWC would be calling for them.

Then there’s LA Tech. The WAC they joined in 2001 made sense. 5 West Coast programs, 5 central programs. The WAC they opted to stick with in 2005 made zero sense for them and yet they stuck with it for what, 7 seasons?

(04-06-2024 07:06 PM)EdwordL Wrote:  

(04-05-2024 09:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  The Missouri Valley had an interesting history. They have members in all the P4 and 2 G5 (3 if you count MAC soccer affiliates).
4 Big 12 (ISU, KU, KSU, OK St.), 2 SEC (OU, MU) and 2 Big 10 (NU, Iowa-only 2 years) were members prior to the Big 8 splitoff in 1928, although Oklahoma St. stayed until 1956.
2 more Big 12 (Houston-51-59, Cincinnati-57-70), an ACC (Louisville-63-75), CUSA (NMSU 70-83), 4 AAC (UNT 57-75, Tulsa 35-96, Memphis-68-73, Wichita 49-2017) were members at various times in the peak years of 50s to mid 70s.
They also have former members in 8 different non-fbs conferences in Division I, II and III.

The Southern Conference spawned the SEC in 1933 and ACC in 1953, so they have teams in all the p4 and 2 G5. They have 10 SEC schools as former members, 8 ACC, 1 Big 12 (WVU), 1 Big 10 (MD), 1 AAC (Tulane) and, as I'm sure the OP knows, 3 Sun Belt-Marshall, GSU, App. St.

bullet: I thought that, at the time of leaving MVC, the Big 8 was Big 6 at the time, later adding OSU, then Colorado 2 or 3 years after that. I've always thought it unusual that for a year or two, Iowa was in both the Big Ten (may still have been the Western Conference at the time, not sure) and the MVC before belonging solely to the Big Ten. I'm sure Iowa has no regrets.

It was 6. CU was admitted before Ok. St.

(04-06-2024 06:27 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(04-05-2024 09:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  The Missouri Valley had an interesting history. They have members in all the P4 and 2 G5 (3 if you count MAC soccer affiliates).
4 Big 12 (ISU, KU, KSU, OK St.), 2 SEC (OU, MU) and 2 Big 10 (NU, Iowa-only 2 years) were members prior to the Big 8 splitoff in 1928, although Oklahoma St. stayed until 1956.
2 more Big 12 (Houston-51-59, Cincinnati-57-70), an ACC (Louisville-63-75), CUSA (NMSU 70-83), 4 AAC (UNT 57-75, Tulsa 35-96, Memphis-68-73, Wichita 49-2017) were members at various times in the peak years of 50s to mid 70s.
They also have former members in 8 different non-fbs conferences in Division I, II and III.

The Southern Conference spawned the SEC in 1933 and ACC in 1953, so they have teams in all the p4 and 2 G5. They have 10 SEC schools as former members, 8 ACC, 1 Big 12 (WVU), 1 Big 10 (MD), 1 AAC (Tulane) and, as I'm sure the OP knows, 3 Sun Belt-Marshall, GSU, App. St.

Living on the east coast, I had no idea the Missouri Valley had that history. Great info.

Looking at the MVC timeline, I'm surprised Tulsa was able to attach itself to the CUSA-to-AAC group of schools. They stayed in the MVC long after all of the other current FBS schools left.

The five most recent FBS schools who left were Cincinnati (1970), Memphis (1973), Texas State (1975), Louisville (1975), New Mexico State (1983)...then Tulsa long after (1996).

When Cincinnati, Memphis, Louisville left the MVC they became football independents. Metro, Great Midwest, etc. were basketball conferences.

After DI-AA was created in 1978, Tulsa, Wichita State, and New Mexico State continued as DI-A. There was some rule that if the majority of schools in a conference were DI-A, all could be I-A but that only applied to the MAC.

Tulsa would play an MVC football schedule but would not be eligible for the I-AA playoffs. All their OOC games were against I-A schools. Eventually NMSU moved to the PCAA (later Big West). In part this would be because of being on the extreme western edge of the basketball footprint. Wichita State dropped football after 1986. I think a factor might have been a requirement to play a full I-A schedule.

Tulsa dropped out of MVC football because they were the only I-A team left. They began playing a full I-A schedule. At this time, schools like Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, Southern Mississippi, Tulane were football independents as well. Tulsa was just in a different basketball conference.

In 1995 they were part of the WAC expansion to 16 schools, and when that fell apart they moved to CUSA. Both of these moves were into an all-sports conference.

They likely got into the Big East -> AAC because San Diego State and Boise State decided not to, TCU moved to the Big 12 after first joining the Big East, and Louisville and Rutgers left after one year.

Tulsa, ECU, and Tulane were replacements.

Note that Tulsa's move to the WAC and CUSA were when Judy MacLeod was AD.

(04-06-2024 09:27 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(04-05-2024 10:53 PM)WAChsenburggemeinde Wrote:  Had Long Beach State kept playing football beyond 1991, they would have also remained in the Big West in 1995-1996.

My guess is they would have been part of the WAC, Mountain West, and easily been included in the eventual PAC-2 expansion.

They might have even kept the PAC-12/10 alive because instead of San Diego State and SMU being talked about as replacements when USC/UCLA left for the Big Ten, it would have been SDSU and LBSU in order to re-capture the Southern California TV market.

The real break point for Big West football would have been the post-1999 direction of the WAC. If Pacific, Cal State Fullerton, and Long Beach State were still playing football it's probably not enough to save Big West football.

2000
Big West (8) - Arkansas St, Boise St, Idaho, Long Beach St, New Mexico St, North Texas, Pacific, Utah State
WAC (9) - TCU, SMU, Rice, UTEP, Tulsa, Fresno St, San Jose St, Hawaii, Nevada
Sun Belt - non-football

2001
Big West (8) - Arkansas St, Boise St, Idaho, Long Beach St, New Mexico St, North Texas, Pacific, Utah State
WAC (10) - Louisiana Tech, TCU, SMU, Rice, UTEP, Tulsa, Fresno St, San Jose St, Hawaii, Nevada
Sun Belt - non-football; MTSU, Louisiana, ULM play as independents

2005
Big West - non-football
WAC (12)
Coastal - Hawaii, Fresno State, San Jose State, Long Beach St, Pacific, CSU Fullerton
Interior - Louisiana Tech, New Mexico St, Utah State, Boise St, Idaho, Nevada
Sun Belt (8) - Arkansas St, North Texas, MTSU, Louisiana, ULM, FIU, FAU, Troy St

The next big question would be if the WAC's "Final 5" (Idaho, NMSU, CSUF, Pacific, Long Beach St) would be able to hold on past 2012. Louisiana Tech and UTSA still bail for C-USA. Texas State to the Sun Belt probably still happens unless if enough schools like Montana jump to FBS via the WAC.

Even if no one else joins them by 2013, it's probably enough to make FBS independent life comfortable indefinitely. The WAC adds Denver, Seattle, and UT-Arlington as non-football member and keeps on trucking. It's possible BYU might even join them instead of the WCC while an FBS independent. Without Denver, the Summit League likely winds up with Utah Valley and UTRGV. Grand Canyon, Tarleton State, Dixie State/Utah Tech, and Cal Baptist whither away in Division II.

C-USA would still grab NMSU as a full member effective 2023. Pacific joins the WCC and becomes a football-only member of C-USA. Long Beach State, Idaho, and Cal State Fullerton enter into a similar arrangement with the Big West, which also takes non-football Seattlejoins the Mountain West as a non-football offset to Hawaii. UT-Arlington joins the Summit, ending the WAC.

The Pac-2 then are faced with the same decision as to either take the entire Mountain West or to try to part it out for a "best-of-the rest" league. If they choose the latter the Mountain West raids C-USA football to restock.

Pac-12
Coastal - Washington State, Oregon State, San Diego St, Fresno St, Boise St, UNLV
Central - UTSA, North Texas, Colorado State, New Mexico, Memphis, Tulane

Mountain West
Western - Hawaii/Seattle, Nevada, San Jose State, Pacific, CSU Fullerton, Long Beach St
Mountain - Utah St, Idaho, Wyoming, Air Force, New Mexico St, UTEP

Big West (non-football)
UC San Diego, UC Irvine, UC Davis, UC Riverside, UC Santa Barbara, Cal Poly, CSU Northridge, CSU Bakersfield, Hawaii

You're kinda confusing at the end here. Are you saying the Big West in this alternative timeline adds Seattle? Because if not, you're basically saying nothing changes for the league between the current actual timeline and this scenario where Long Beach State, Cal State Fullerton and Pacific hold onto football. The Big West remains largely intact as it stands right now - minus Cal State Fullerton and Long Beach State - with maybe Seattle or GCU as the 10th member.

If we’re going to speculate where things would be today with those 3 CA schools still playing FBS, I’d say that circa 2013 the WAC looks like this:

FB: Idaho, NMSU, Cal St Fullerton, Long Beach St, Pacific
Non-FB: Seattle, GCU, Utah Valley

I’d say they’d stand a halfway decent chance of recruiting 3 FCS schools, maybe UC Davis, Sac St, and Cal Poly.

When C-USA falls apart, I don’t think NMSU necessarily looks to leave. In fact, I think they might even recruit UTEP for a 12/9 configuration.

(04-06-2024 10:52 PM)jimrtex Wrote:  

(04-06-2024 06:27 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(04-05-2024 09:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  The Missouri Valley had an interesting history. They have members in all the P4 and 2 G5 (3 if you count MAC soccer affiliates).
4 Big 12 (ISU, KU, KSU, OK St.), 2 SEC (OU, MU) and 2 Big 10 (NU, Iowa-only 2 years) were members prior to the Big 8 splitoff in 1928, although Oklahoma St. stayed until 1956.
2 more Big 12 (Houston-51-59, Cincinnati-57-70), an ACC (Louisville-63-75), CUSA (NMSU 70-83), 4 AAC (UNT 57-75, Tulsa 35-96, Memphis-68-73, Wichita 49-2017) were members at various times in the peak years of 50s to mid 70s.
They also have former members in 8 different non-fbs conferences in Division I, II and III.

The Southern Conference spawned the SEC in 1933 and ACC in 1953, so they have teams in all the p4 and 2 G5. They have 10 SEC schools as former members, 8 ACC, 1 Big 12 (WVU), 1 Big 10 (MD), 1 AAC (Tulane) and, as I'm sure the OP knows, 3 Sun Belt-Marshall, GSU, App. St.

Living on the east coast, I had no idea the Missouri Valley had that history. Great info.

Looking at the MVC timeline, I'm surprised Tulsa was able to attach itself to the CUSA-to-AAC group of schools. They stayed in the MVC long after all of the other current FBS schools left.

The five most recent FBS schools who left were Cincinnati (1970), Memphis (1973), Texas State (1975), Louisville (1975), New Mexico State (1983)...then Tulsa long after (1996).

When Cincinnati, Memphis, Louisville left the MVC they became football independents. Metro, Great Midwest, etc. were basketball conferences.

After DI-AA was created in 1978, Tulsa, Wichita State, and New Mexico State continued as DI-A. There was some rule that if the majority of schools in a conference were DI-A, all could be I-A but that only applied to the MAC.

Tulsa would play an MVC football schedule but would not be eligible for the I-AA playoffs. All their OOC games were against I-A schools. Eventually NMSU moved to the PCAA (later Big West). In part this would be because of being on the extreme western edge of the basketball footprint. Wichita State dropped football after 1986. I think a factor might have been a requirement to play a full I-A schedule.

Tulsa dropped out of MVC football because they were the only I-A team left. They began playing a full I-A schedule. At this time, schools like Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, Southern Mississippi, Tulane were football independents as well. Tulsa was just in a different basketball conference.

In 1995 they were part of the WAC expansion to 16 schools, and when that fell apart they moved to CUSA. Both of these moves were into an all-sports conference.

They likely got into the Big East -> AAC because San Diego State and Boise State decided not to, TCU moved to the Big 12 after first joining the Big East, and Louisville and Rutgers left after one year.

Tulsa, ECU, and Tulane were replacements.

Note that Tulsa's move to the WAC and CUSA were when Judy MacLeod was AD.

There was a hierarchy amongst Independents in the pre-C-USA 90’s as evidenced by the Liberty Bowl contract. I don’t think Tulsa was included, and they weren’t included when the conference formed either.

If memory serves, the Liberty Bowl coalition was Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, Tulane, USM, and ECU.

(04-06-2024 10:52 PM)jimrtex Wrote:  After DI-AA was created in 1978, Tulsa, Wichita State, and New Mexico State continued as DI-A. There was some rule that if the majority of schools in a conference were DI-A, all could be I-A but that only applied to the MAC.

I think you are referring to the attendance rule, right? Before 1982, too many MAC schools missed the mark on attendance, so for that one season most of the conference was I-AA. (The exceptions were Toledo and Central Michigan, I believe.) A majority of the MAC met the attendance requirements in 1983, so the entire conference was again I-A.

I would think the Big West had seasons where some schools fell short of the attendance requirements, but remained I-A because of overall conference attendance, right?

(04-06-2024 10:52 PM)jimrtex Wrote:  

(04-06-2024 06:27 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(04-05-2024 09:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  The Missouri Valley had an interesting history. They have members in all the P4 and 2 G5 (3 if you count MAC soccer affiliates).
4 Big 12 (ISU, KU, KSU, OK St.), 2 SEC (OU, MU) and 2 Big 10 (NU, Iowa-only 2 years) were members prior to the Big 8 splitoff in 1928, although Oklahoma St. stayed until 1956.
2 more Big 12 (Houston-51-59, Cincinnati-57-70), an ACC (Louisville-63-75), CUSA (NMSU 70-83), 4 AAC (UNT 57-75, Tulsa 35-96, Memphis-68-73, Wichita 49-2017) were members at various times in the peak years of 50s to mid 70s.
They also have former members in 8 different non-fbs conferences in Division I, II and III.

The Southern Conference spawned the SEC in 1933 and ACC in 1953, so they have teams in all the p4 and 2 G5. They have 10 SEC schools as former members, 8 ACC, 1 Big 12 (WVU), 1 Big 10 (MD), 1 AAC (Tulane) and, as I'm sure the OP knows, 3 Sun Belt-Marshall, GSU, App. St.

Living on the east coast, I had no idea the Missouri Valley had that history. Great info.

Looking at the MVC timeline, I'm surprised Tulsa was able to attach itself to the CUSA-to-AAC group of schools. They stayed in the MVC long after all of the other current FBS schools left.

The five most recent FBS schools who left were Cincinnati (1970), Memphis (1973), Texas State (1975), Louisville (1975), New Mexico State (1983)...then Tulsa long after (1996).

When Cincinnati, Memphis, Louisville left the MVC they became football independents. Metro, Great Midwest, etc. were basketball conferences.

After DI-AA was created in 1978, Tulsa, Wichita State, and New Mexico State continued as DI-A. There was some rule that if the majority of schools in a conference were DI-A, all could be I-A but that only applied to the MAC.

Tulsa would play an MVC football schedule but would not be eligible for the I-AA playoffs. All their OOC games were against I-A schools. Eventually NMSU moved to the PCAA (later Big West). In part this would be because of being on the extreme western edge of the basketball footprint. Wichita State dropped football after 1986. I think a factor might have been a requirement to play a full I-A schedule.

Tulsa dropped out of MVC football because they were the only I-A team left. They began playing a full I-A schedule. At this time, schools like Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, Southern Mississippi, Tulane were football independents as well. Tulsa was just in a different basketball conference.

In 1995 they were part of the WAC expansion to 16 schools, and when that fell apart they moved to CUSA. Both of these moves were into an all-sports conference.

They likely got into the Big East -> AAC because San Diego State and Boise State decided not to, TCU moved to the Big 12 after first joining the Big East, and Louisville and Rutgers left after one year.

Tulsa, ECU, and Tulane were replacements.

Note that Tulsa's move to the WAC and CUSA were when Judy MacLeod was AD.

West Texas A&M was still considered 1A for football, but part of MVC with Tulsa, Wichita State and New Mexico State. West Texas A&M was the bridge as a travel pair for New Mexico State in the MVC. That was until 1985 when they did dropped down to D2.

(04-07-2024 04:26 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If we’re going to speculate where things would be today with those 3 CA schools still playing FBS, I’d say that circa 2013 the WAC looks like this:

FB: Idaho, NMSU, Cal St Fullerton, Long Beach St, Pacific
Non-FB: Seattle, GCU, Utah Valley

I’d say they’d stand a halfway decent chance of recruiting 3 FCS schools, maybe UC Davis, Sac St, and Cal Poly.

When C-USA falls apart, I don’t think NMSU necessarily looks to leave. In fact, I think they might even recruit UTEP for a 12/9 configuration.

They could have recruited Santa Clara if they kept football. They could play in Levi's Stadium. That is where the bowl game is at.
CSU-LA, Cal Poly-Pomona and Chico State if they all kept football? They could be in the WAC as well.

(04-06-2024 10:52 PM)jimrtex Wrote:  

(04-06-2024 06:27 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(04-05-2024 09:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  The Missouri Valley had an interesting history. They have members in all the P4 and 2 G5 (3 if you count MAC soccer affiliates).
4 Big 12 (ISU, KU, KSU, OK St.), 2 SEC (OU, MU) and 2 Big 10 (NU, Iowa-only 2 years) were members prior to the Big 8 splitoff in 1928, although Oklahoma St. stayed until 1956.
2 more Big 12 (Houston-51-59, Cincinnati-57-70), an ACC (Louisville-63-75), CUSA (NMSU 70-83), 4 AAC (UNT 57-75, Tulsa 35-96, Memphis-68-73, Wichita 49-2017) were members at various times in the peak years of 50s to mid 70s.
They also have former members in 8 different non-fbs conferences in Division I, II and III.

The Southern Conference spawned the SEC in 1933 and ACC in 1953, so they have teams in all the p4 and 2 G5. They have 10 SEC schools as former members, 8 ACC, 1 Big 12 (WVU), 1 Big 10 (MD), 1 AAC (Tulane) and, as I'm sure the OP knows, 3 Sun Belt-Marshall, GSU, App. St.

Living on the east coast, I had no idea the Missouri Valley had that history. Great info.

Looking at the MVC timeline, I'm surprised Tulsa was able to attach itself to the CUSA-to-AAC group of schools. They stayed in the MVC long after all of the other current FBS schools left.

The five most recent FBS schools who left were Cincinnati (1970), Memphis (1973), Texas State (1975), Louisville (1975), New Mexico State (1983)...then Tulsa long after (1996).

When Cincinnati, Memphis, Louisville left the MVC they became football independents. Metro, Great Midwest, etc. were basketball conferences.

After DI-AA was created in 1978, Tulsa, Wichita State, and New Mexico State continued as DI-A. There was some rule that if the majority of schools in a conference were DI-A, all could be I-A but that only applied to the MAC.

Tulsa would play an MVC football schedule but would not be eligible for the I-AA playoffs. All their OOC games were against I-A schools. Eventually NMSU moved to the PCAA (later Big West). In part this would be because of being on the extreme western edge of the basketball footprint. Wichita State dropped football after 1986. I think a factor might have been a requirement to play a full I-A schedule.

Tulsa dropped out of MVC football because they were the only I-A team left. They began playing a full I-A schedule. At this time, schools like Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, Southern Mississippi, Tulane were football independents as well. Tulsa was just in a different basketball conference.

In 1995 they were part of the WAC expansion to 16 schools, and when that fell apart they moved to CUSA. Both of these moves were into an all-sports conference.

They likely got into the Big East -> AAC because San Diego State and Boise State decided not to, TCU moved to the Big 12 after first joining the Big East, and Louisville and Rutgers left after one year.

Tulsa, ECU, and Tulane were replacements.

Note that Tulsa's move to the WAC and CUSA were when Judy MacLeod was AD.

Actually most of the MAC did not qualify and 6 to 8 were classified as I-AA for one year. However they appealed and were put back into I-A. I think Cincinnati also had to appeal their placement.

Quote:You're kinda confusing at the end here. Are you saying the Big West in this alternative timeline adds Seattle? Because if not, you're basically saying nothing changes for the league between the current actual timeline and this scenario where Long Beach State, Cal State Fullerton and Pacific hold onto football. The Big West remains largely intact as it stands right now - minus Cal State Fullerton and Long Beach State - with maybe Seattle or GCU as the 10th member.

I basically had Seattle as a travel partner for Idaho, and then Seattle following them to the Big West.

The Big West would never take GCU under any circumstances - the UC system schools would definitely not allow it.

The Big West may have been boxed into adding Denver and Seattle circa 2005 in this timeline, as this would have been the holdovers from 2004:

UC Irvine, UC Riverside, UC Santa Barbara, Cal Poly, CSU Northridge

IRL Denver joined the Sun Belt in 1999 and stayed to 2012, while Seattle did not return from Division II until 2009. Maybe the Big West even approaches Hawaii about them going football-only with the WAC. Cal State Bakersfield began Division I play in 2007 so they may have moved up sooner. UC Davis was an independent in 2005 and joined the Big West in 2007, so perhaps they move up their timeline. The next best option probably would have been Southern Utah, who was in the Mid-Continent/Summit at the time.

So this probably would have been the Big West in 2005 (*in transition from Division II)

UC Irvine, UC Riverside, UC Santa Barbara, Cal Poly, CSU Northridge, Denver, Hawaii, Southern Utah, Seattle*, UC Davis*

Cal State Bakersfield replaces Southern Utah in 2012 when Southern Utah joins the Big Sky. Cal Baptist replaces Denver, and UC San Diego serves as a very belated replacement for Seattle.

With Southern Utah, the Big West could have also tried to go the FCS route themselves. Northern Arizona would make the most sense geographically but they seem to to be the loyal to the Big Sky. Perhaps with Seattle in the fold they get Eastern Washington or Portland State to get to six members:

Big West - EWU, Portland State, Sacramento State, UC Davis, Cal Poly, Southern Utah
Big Sky - Idaho State, Weber State, Montana, Montana State, Northern Arizona, Northern Colorado, North Dakota

This might have moved Dixie State/Utah Tech up sooner as well, and perhaps the Big Sky takes a look at schools in the Central Time Zone.

(04-07-2024 08:16 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(04-07-2024 04:26 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If we’re going to speculate where things would be today with those 3 CA schools still playing FBS, I’d say that circa 2013 the WAC looks like this:

FB: Idaho, NMSU, Cal St Fullerton, Long Beach St, Pacific
Non-FB: Seattle, GCU, Utah Valley

I’d say they’d stand a halfway decent chance of recruiting 3 FCS schools, maybe UC Davis, Sac St, and Cal Poly.

When C-USA falls apart, I don’t think NMSU necessarily looks to leave. In fact, I think they might even recruit UTEP for a 12/9 configuration.

They could have recruited Santa Clara if they kept football. They could play in Levi's Stadium. That is where the bowl game is at.
CSU-LA, Cal Poly-Pomona and Chico State if they all kept football? They could be in the WAC as well.

I was thinking Saint Mary. while underfunded they were playing football tell 2003. I can see a potential package deal with San Diego also. That's 11 schools with 9 in California. Assuming they get the 3 FCS call-ups not counting the teams I mentioned.

(04-08-2024 12:14 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  

Quote:You're kinda confusing at the end here. Are you saying the Big West in this alternative timeline adds Seattle? Because if not, you're basically saying nothing changes for the league between the current actual timeline and this scenario where Long Beach State, Cal State Fullerton and Pacific hold onto football. The Big West remains largely intact as it stands right now - minus Cal State Fullerton and Long Beach State - with maybe Seattle or GCU as the 10th member.

I basically had Seattle as a travel partner for Idaho, and then Seattle following them to the Big West.

The Big West would never take GCU under any circumstances - the UC system schools would definitely not allow it.

The Big West may have been boxed into adding Denver and Seattle circa 2005 in this timeline, as this would have been the holdovers from 2004:

UC Irvine, UC Riverside, UC Santa Barbara, Cal Poly, CSU Northridge

IRL Denver joined the Sun Belt in 1999 and stayed to 2012, while Seattle did not return from Division II until 2009. Maybe the Big West even approaches Hawaii about them going football-only with the WAC. Cal State Bakersfield began Division I play in 2007 so they may have moved up sooner. UC Davis was an independent in 2005 and joined the Big West in 2007, so perhaps they move up their timeline. The next best option probably would have been Southern Utah, who was in the Mid-Continent/Summit at the time.

So this probably would have been the Big West in 2005 (*in transition from Division II)

UC Irvine, UC Riverside, UC Santa Barbara, Cal Poly, CSU Northridge, Denver, Hawaii, Southern Utah, Seattle*, UC Davis*

Cal State Bakersfield replaces Southern Utah in 2012 when Southern Utah joins the Big Sky. Cal Baptist replaces Denver, and UC San Diego serves as a very belated replacement for Seattle.

With Southern Utah, the Big West could have also tried to go the FCS route themselves. Northern Arizona would make the most sense geographically but they seem to to be the loyal to the Big Sky. Perhaps with Seattle in the fold they get Eastern Washington or Portland State to get to six members:

Big West - EWU, Portland State, Sacramento State, UC Davis, Cal Poly, Southern Utah
Big Sky - Idaho State, Weber State, Montana, Montana State, Northern Arizona, Northern Colorado, North Dakota

This might have moved Dixie State/Utah Tech up sooner as well, and perhaps the Big Sky takes a look at schools in the Central Time Zone.

IRL Seattle approached the Big West in 2008 about membership and was politely turned aside. And Denver was mentioned by Andy Katz in 2012 as a possibility when Boise was doing their BE/BW dance.

You're mostly correct about the Big West membership in the alternative timeline, except that either Denver or Seattle would have likely remained after the subsequent realignment saga rather than go to the WAC or Summit - the WCC wasn't taking them - and there wouldn't have been a need for a second member in Riverside with Cal Baptist as UCR is already there.

So the Big West from 2020 on would have been a 10 member league with two members from outside California.

UC Irvine, UC Riverside, UC Santa Barbara, Cal Poly, CSU Northridge, Denver/Seattle, Hawaii, UC Davis, Cal State Bakersfield, UC San Diego.

Not exactly the powerhouse of the late 80s, early 90s. But still a nice group with just enough juice to remain a multibid league in olympic sports. I'm guessing Seattle would have been it because of their location on the west coast, but Denver would have been fine as well.