(04-02-2024 02:04 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 01:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 11:58 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 08:24 PM)foulball33 Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 07:51 PM)Realignment Wrote:  I'll watch. Honestly. The WNBA needs to capitalize right now and get a TV deal done. The women are underpaid. I doubt Clark takes the money, she's going to make hers in endorsements.

How are they underpaid? The League loses money.

Talent get paid for content provided. Owners and investors profit (as they can) and eat risk.

Huh? Some businesses can operate at a loss some of the time, but eventually it just turns into “charity” if you can’t make a profit. I’m not saying that’s where the WNBA is, but long term losses, even in something with an upside in the indefinite future, tend to put a limit on money available for things like salary.

The best WNBA players make and will continue to make their money from NIL.

Re 'huh?' Employees have rights, yes.

https://squareup.com/us/en/the-bottom-li...ds-to-know

Unprofitable ventures do eventually go out of business, as you say. Employees and independent contractors are still owed fair pay.

If I'm the head chef in your (unprofitable) restaurant, I still get fair compensation for the work I do for as long as you're open. Profit is your problem as owner, not mine as the chef. I showed up and cooked. I supplied the content. I get paid.

If you have problems with that, I and the rest of the kitchen staff will see you in court—bankruptcy court if need be. That's why these courts exist.

Business 101.

Having represented both creditors and debtors in US Bankruptcy Court, I assure you that employees and contractors are forced to accept a discounted % of salary owed all the time. It’s not even slightly unusual, and sometimes that % is much closer to “nothing” than the original value agreed in the contract.

But back to the “chef in the restaurant” analogy. Not all restaurants are equal, not all kitchens are equal, not all chefs are equal, and for damn sure not all chefs earn the same pay. WNBA games and NBA games do not generate anywhere near the same revenue, and WNBA players and NBA players do not receive anywhere near the same compensation. For political reasons, various media and various investors/sponsors feel the need to financially prop up the WNBA. I don’t blame the players for riding the gravy train as long as they can.

(04-02-2024 02:11 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 02:04 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 01:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 11:58 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 08:24 PM)foulball33 Wrote:  How are they underpaid? The League loses money.

Talent get paid for content provided. Owners and investors profit (as they can) and eat risk.

Huh? Some businesses can operate at a loss some of the time, but eventually it just turns into “charity” if you can’t make a profit. I’m not saying that’s where the WNBA is, but long term losses, even in something with an upside in the indefinite future, tend to put a limit on money available for things like salary.

The best WNBA players make and will continue to make their money from NIL.

Re 'huh?' Employees have rights, yes.

https://squareup.com/us/en/the-bottom-li...ds-to-know

Unprofitable ventures do eventually go out of business, as you say. Employees and independent contractors are still owed fair pay.

If I'm the head chef in your (unprofitable) restaurant, I still get fair compensation for the work I do for as long as you're open. Profit is your problem as owner, not mine as the chef. I showed up and cooked. I supplied the content. I get paid.

If you have problems with that, I and the rest of the kitchen staff will see you in court—bankruptcy court if need be. That's why these courts exist.

Business 101.

But if my restaurant is losing money, and my highest cost is the head chef, then I can just find a new chef fresh out of college and pay him a lower wage. Maybe it works out, maybe not, but at least I made an effort to lower my costs. A loss making venture such as the WNBA has a much easier way to control salaries by negotiating a very low wage cap and structure with the players union. When/if the league starts making money, that negotiated wage scale has enormous potential to grow, as we’ve seen in the most successful men’s leagues of various sports. Ie, the talent makes more when the league makes money, with a huge potential to make far more if the league truly thrives, but a very limited salary potential if the league doesn’t and no investors are willing to keep dumping more and more money into a loss making operation.

If you're the only restaurant in town, your kitchen staff is bargained with collectively, yes. That's how you avoid antitrust action and the community ensures fair employee treatment.

You want to let go of experienced kitchen staff so you can hire kids out of college who will work for minimum wage even if it's not an entry-level job description? You're to the point that surviving one more day makes it worth the hit to your product quality and reputation? Understandable that you might consider that option. And maybe it's one you actually have.

Let's see what the contract says.

As you note, collective bargaining is how all these options come about: the salary cap with allowances for free agency, 'franchise player' designations and the like.

Kitchen staff and owners have shared interests in keeping up standards and keeping the doors open. It doesn't do to kill any golden geese. So they look at numbers together and work out agreements.

(04-02-2024 02:19 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 02:04 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 01:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 11:58 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 08:24 PM)foulball33 Wrote:  How are they underpaid? The League loses money.

Talent get paid for content provided. Owners and investors profit (as they can) and eat risk.

Huh? Some businesses can operate at a loss some of the time, but eventually it just turns into “charity” if you can’t make a profit. I’m not saying that’s where the WNBA is, but long term losses, even in something with an upside in the indefinite future, tend to put a limit on money available for things like salary.

The best WNBA players make and will continue to make their money from NIL.

Re 'huh?' Employees have rights, yes.

https://squareup.com/us/en/the-bottom-li...ds-to-know

Unprofitable ventures do eventually go out of business, as you say. Employees and independent contractors are still owed fair pay.

If I'm the head chef in your (unprofitable) restaurant, I still get fair compensation for the work I do for as long as you're open. Profit is your problem as owner, not mine as the chef. I showed up and cooked. I supplied the content. I get paid.

If you have problems with that, I and the rest of the kitchen staff will see you in court—bankruptcy court if need be. That's why these courts exist.

Business 101.

Having represented both creditors and debtors in US Bankruptcy Court, I assure you that employees and contractors are forced to accept a discounted % of salary owed all the time. It’s not even slightly unusual, and sometimes that % is much closer to “nothing” than the original value agreed in the contract.

But back to the “chef in the restaurant” analogy. Not all restaurants are equal, not all kitchens are equal, not all chefs are equal, and for damn sure not all chefs earn the same pay. WNBA games and NBA games do not generate anywhere near the same revenue, and WNBA players and NBA players do not receive anywhere near the same compensation. For political reasons, various media and various investors/sponsors feel the need to financially prop up the WNBA. I don’t blame the players for riding the gravy train as long as they can.

Caitlin Clark was just offered $5m by Ice Cube to play in the Big3. Girls basketball isn't all hype, and it's not necessary to assign political reasons to investments into it. I think that it's more that the NBA owners figured that, one day, women's bball might be worth a bundle, and they want to make sure that bundle goes to them instead of someone else. Look at what's happened with men's soccer team valuations in the US. For the longest time, leagues barely held on, players and owners made jack squat, teams were nearly worthless. One day, we look up and the avg team valuation is over $500m.

https://d3data.sportico.com/MLSValuation...sList.html

Numbers skyrocketing, too.

It's a reasonable investment for the NBA to also encourage women's professional basketball. Hopefully, it ends up paying off with huge $$ down the road, but, if not, it will still serve to encourage more girls to buy tickets and watch their favorite NBA teams. That doesn't mean that certain reporters at certain companies don't have an agenda of pushing girls sports down our throats ofc, but sometimes that agenda could be just as much "I wanna get in good with Adam Silver so we're more likely to get a bigger slice of the next NBA contract" as "I wanna force these dudes to watch girls bball".

(03-27-2024 07:51 PM)Realignment Wrote:  I'll watch. Honestly. The WNBA needs to capitalize right now and get a TV deal done. The women are underpaid. I doubt Clark takes the money, she's going to make hers in endorsements.

Even more, I expect we will see Ms Clark and her peers continuing to lead later as WNBA franchise owners.

Much as we see in the MLS now, with Mr Beckham (and reportedly Mr Messi, in time).

(04-03-2024 04:39 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 07:51 PM)Realignment Wrote:  I'll watch. Honestly. The WNBA needs to capitalize right now and get a TV deal done. The women are underpaid. I doubt Clark takes the money, she's going to make hers in endorsements.

Even more, I expect we will see Ms Clark and her peers continuing to lead later as WNBA franchise owners.

Much as we see in the MLS now, with Mr Beckham (and reportedly Mr Messi, in time).

She has no peers, at least financially. She's more like Jordan in that she's the first who can even dream of one day owning a team.

WNBA and NWSL expansion teams recently cost ~ $50m. The Seattle Storm sold 14% of their team at a $151m valuation last year. Nobody other than Clark has the potential at present to actually be the money behind a team, and that's at current valuations. On their current trend, it's hard to know if even Clark will end up making enough to own her own team.

As a crazy aside, Jerry only paid $140m for the Cowboys in 1989, that admittedly that would be more like $357m in 2024 dollars.

Angel Reese has now declared for the WNBA draft, which is kind of surprising. You’d think the LSU folks could have come up with more than $75k to keep her in Baton Rouge. But the WNBA needs to capitalize on this rivalry. Market the hell out of it, pay both of them and be sure to get them on TV. Those two could help bring the WNBA into the black financially.

(04-01-2024 01:10 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-28-2024 10:30 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 08:55 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 07:51 PM)Realignment Wrote:  I'll watch. Honestly. The WNBA needs to capitalize right now and get a TV deal done. The women are underpaid. I doubt Clark takes the money, she's going to make hers in endorsements.

I’d be interested in seeing the terms of the deal. Is it 1 year? 10? Can she also play in the WNBA?

From looking at the Big 3 rules, a deadly long range shooter has outsize value. They have a 4 point shot, but it’s from 30 ft out. Free throws can also be taken for more points at a greater distance. Games are half court and are very quick, increasing her odds of not getting murdered by some of those former NBA players. At the very least, she could camp at the 4 pt line and force the defense to keep 1 guy blanketing her, opening up her teammates for a 2on2 game.

Man, imagine Steph Curry in that league. He might dominate that into his 50s if he chooses to play when his NBA days are done.

This is a very savvy move by Ice Cube. Nobody cared about Big 3 basketball yesterday. Maybe Clark never plays a minute, maybe she does and gets overwhelmed, but, at least for today, people are talking about the league.

I assume she would have to play using a men's basketball, which is larger than the one women use. I wonder how that would impact her field goal percentage.

Playing with a different size basketball is a big change. I'm kind of surprised they never switched girls to the bigger ball in high school.

Fair enough.

If it’s such a big deal, switch the games to a women’s size ball.

Even better don’t tell the boys until tip-off.

There’s your equalizer right there!

Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, and Paige Bueckers haven't played a single game yet in the WNBA. We don't know how successful they will be at the next level. It's a little early to tell if they will become transcendent players, or whether their presence will elevate the league as a whole. A lot of people watch them as college players (mostly in the NCAAT), and I am one of them. I have watched other great women players in college as well. But I don't watch a minute of the WNBA, and I don't imagine I will once the current cohort of college stars come into the league.

Let's see what the landscape looks like once the hype settles down.

(04-06-2024 09:30 AM)ken d Wrote:  Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, and Paige Bueckers haven't played a single game yet in the WNBA. We don't know how successful they will be at the next level. It's a little early to tell if they will become transcendent players, or whether their presence will elevate the league as a whole. A lot of people watch them as college players (mostly in the NCAAT), and I am one of them. I have watched other great women players in college as well. But I don't watch a minute of the WNBA, and I don't imagine I will once the current cohort of college stars come into the league.

Let's see what the landscape looks like once the hype settles down.

That's a valid post. Are these girls the next Bird/Magic, or are they the next Zion/Ja Morant? Zion and Ja are plenty good as players, but they're never going to be mistaken for Bird or Magic. It's probably going too far to say that Bird and Magic saved the NBA, but they certainly helped take to another level. The WNBA needs players who convince people, just random sports fans, to tune in for their games.

(04-03-2024 01:03 PM)Chappy Wrote:  

100% accurate. The only shot that the WNBA has is getting a female audience and in order to do that it has the a reality show thing. And before anyone talks about USWNT Soccer or Clark's presence....these are events not a "season". Literally nobody even knows there is a women's MLS league.

(04-06-2024 07:58 PM)513Alex Wrote:  

(04-03-2024 01:03 PM)Chappy Wrote:  

100% accurate. The only shot that the WNBA has is getting a female audience and in order to do that it has the a reality show thing. And before anyone talks about USWNT Soccer or Clark's presence....these are events not a "season". Literally nobody even knows there is a women's MLS league.

If nobody knows about it then how do YOU know about it? /cue XFiles music

(04-02-2024 01:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 11:58 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 08:24 PM)foulball33 Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 07:51 PM)Realignment Wrote:  I'll watch. Honestly. The WNBA needs to capitalize right now and get a TV deal done. The women are underpaid. I doubt Clark takes the money, she's going to make hers in endorsements.

How are they underpaid? The League loses money.

Talent get paid for content provided. Owners and investors profit (as they can) and eat risk.

Huh? Some businesses can operate at a loss some of the time, but eventually it just turns into “charity” if you can’t make a profit. I’m not saying that’s where the WNBA is, but long term losses, even in something with an upside in the indefinite future, tend to put a limit on money available for things like salary.

The best WNBA players make and will continue to make their money from NIL.

Yeah WNBA literally loses millions of dollars a year for the NBA. No one goes to their games nor buys their paraphernalia. Their operating costs are already a massive negative cost before the players even get paid. They are the most overpaid athletes in the world by a large margin actually. Any other athletic league would have folded decades ago but the whole thing is subsidized by the NBA because they want to ensure that the game as a whole can maintain females as players and fans.

(04-07-2024 05:03 PM)AntiG Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 01:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(04-02-2024 11:58 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 08:24 PM)foulball33 Wrote:  

(03-27-2024 07:51 PM)Realignment Wrote:  I'll watch. Honestly. The WNBA needs to capitalize right now and get a TV deal done. The women are underpaid. I doubt Clark takes the money, she's going to make hers in endorsements.

How are they underpaid? The League loses money.

Talent get paid for content provided. Owners and investors profit (as they can) and eat risk.

Huh? Some businesses can operate at a loss some of the time, but eventually it just turns into “charity” if you can’t make a profit. I’m not saying that’s where the WNBA is, but long term losses, even in something with an upside in the indefinite future, tend to put a limit on money available for things like salary.

The best WNBA players make and will continue to make their money from NIL.

Yeah WNBA literally loses millions of dollars a year for the NBA. No one goes to their games nor buys their paraphernalia. Their operating costs are already a massive negative cost before the players even get paid. They are the most overpaid athletes in the world by a large margin actually. Any other athletic league would have folded decades ago but the whole thing is subsidized by the NBA because they want to ensure that the game as a whole can maintain females as players and fans.

If I was an investor in the WNBA (I'm not), I'd be excited looking at the players coming out of this year's NCAAT. Reese, Clark, half the SC roster, Bueckers next year...all this attention COULD translate into a moment or even an explosion for the WNBA. The UConn-Iowa game was the highest-rated college basketball game in ESPN history, male or female. I don't think it will translate into WNBA success, mind you, but it might. And that's enough. NBA franchise valuations range from $2b to $7b, a few million$ a year in losses on a WNBA franchise is barely a rounding error for them, and the long term potential of it justifies getting in on the ground floor. So if they have to pay the players about what a decent administrative assistant or paralegal makes, I'd say that it's probably worth it to them. Perhaps not forever, but at least for now, especially with all the optimism surrounding the new talent in the pipeline.

One thing to keep in mind, and I think this is a valid issue, is that American female professional basketball players all know what happened to Griner in Russia. I mean, they KNOW b/c she gave them all the details at dinner the night before the game last year. Those girls are probably significantly less motivated to consider playing overseas today than they were in years past, and with good reason. So, while it's possible that Clark skips out on the NBA to play in Big 3 or do commercials full or whatever, she's not likely to go play overseas for a bit more money. Ditto Resse and all the rest of the current crop of superstars. For them, the WNBA is the place to be.