(01-13-2024 09:27 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  i agree this is a very worthwhile course, and suggest we we expand the genre with Hispanic math and gay geology.

My last year, I was told that I should find out which courses the jocks were taking, and sign up for,those. One turned out to the best course I ever took, and one nearly flunked me. But they all had final exams.

It’s kind of a strange implication that a course is not worthwhile or serious if it does not have a final exam.

(01-13-2024 11:29 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 09:27 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  i agree this is a very worthwhile course, and suggest we we expand the genre with Hispanic math and gay geology.

My last year, I was told that I should find out which courses the jocks were taking, and sign up for,those. One turned out to the best course I ever took, and one nearly flunked me. But they all had final exams.

It’s kind of a strange implication that a course is not worthwhile or serious if it does not have a final exam.

Maybe to you. My entire undergrad and grad careers, save for the independent research, had final exams. I take those to be an exam to see if the knowledge meant to imparted was actually imparted. Lack of an exam may mean no particular knowledge was planned to imparted. I think even philosophy courses have final exams.

Nonetheless, the assumption you have made is incorrect, that you think I believe the Afrochem course has no merit because ithas no final exam. I think the lack of the final exam just shows it has no body of knowledge to be imparted. Even beginner chem has a body of knowledge to be imparted. I think the course itself probably has no merit because it tries to tie two things together that have no intersection, like the additional courses I mentioned. I don’t see the intersection between hard science/math and political views. Maybe a student in the course could explain it to me. Until then, I will continue to consider gay geology an apt companion course. Same as astronomy for transsexuals. As for Hispanic math, in my experience Quattro menos dos still equals four minus two.

Good talking to you again.

(01-13-2024 11:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 11:29 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 09:27 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  i agree this is a very worthwhile course, and suggest we we expand the genre with Hispanic math and gay geology.

My last year, I was told that I should find out which courses the jocks were taking, and sign up for,those. One turned out to the best course I ever took, and one nearly flunked me. But they all had final exams.

It’s kind of a strange implication that a course is not worthwhile or serious if it does not have a final exam.

Maybe to you. My entire undergrad and grad careers, save for the independent research, had final exams. I take those to be an exam to see if the knowledge meant to imparted was actually imparted. Lack of an exam may mean no particular knowledge was planned to imparted. I think even philosophy courses have final exams.

Nonetheless, the assumption you have made is incorrect, that you think I believe the Afrochem course has no merit because ithas no final exam. I think the lack of the final exam just shows it has no body of knowledge to be imparted. Even beginner chem has a body of knowledge to be imparted. I think the course itself probably has no merit because it tries to tie two things together that have no intersection, like the additional courses I mentioned. I don’t see the intersection between hard science/math and political views. Maybe a student in the course could explain it to me. Until then, I will continue to consider gay geology an apt companion course. Same as astronomy for transsexuals. As for Hispanic math, in my experience Quattro menos dos still equals four minus two.

Good talking to you again.

I took courses that did not have a final exam. As I recall, most of these seemed to be be non-SE courses. Some of these required a final paper at the end of the course. Some of the courses were graded simply on papers, exams during the semester and class participation. This does not equate to the courses not having a body of knowledge to be imparted.

(01-13-2024 12:19 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 11:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 11:29 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 09:27 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  i agree this is a very worthwhile course, and suggest we we expand the genre with Hispanic math and gay geology.

My last year, I was told that I should find out which courses the jocks were taking, and sign up for,those. One turned out to the best course I ever took, and one nearly flunked me. But they all had final exams.

It’s kind of a strange implication that a course is not worthwhile or serious if it does not have a final exam.

Maybe to you. My entire undergrad and grad careers, save for the independent research, had final exams. I take those to be an exam to see if the knowledge meant to imparted was actually imparted. Lack of an exam may mean no particular knowledge was planned to imparted. I think even philosophy courses have final exams.

Nonetheless, the assumption you have made is incorrect, that you think I believe the Afrochem course has no merit because ithas no final exam. I think the lack of the final exam just shows it has no body of knowledge to be imparted. Even beginner chem has a body of knowledge to be imparted. I think the course itself probably has no merit because it tries to tie two things together that have no intersection, like the additional courses I mentioned. I don’t see the intersection between hard science/math and political views. Maybe a student in the course could explain it to me. Until then, I will continue to consider gay geology an apt companion course. Same as astronomy for transsexuals. As for Hispanic math, in my experience Quattro menos dos still equals four minus two.

Good talking to you again.

I took courses that did not have a final exam. As I recall, most of these seemed to be be non-SE courses. Some of these required a final paper at the end of the course. Some of the courses were graded simply on papers, exams during the semester and class participation. This does not equate to the courses not having a body of knowledge to be imparted.

True. I wonder what the body of knowledge to be imparted in this course is. That elements are different in Africa or Asia? That acids act differently in some U.S. states than in others?

I am sure things have changed in the 55 years since I graduated from Rice. Maybe today one does not have to display a mastery of the subject matter. Maybe just perfect attendance or the right attitude. But if I send my kids or grandkids t6o college to be a chemist, or a physicist or a geologist, I want them learn what it takes to be a professional chemist, physicist, or geologist.

I really enjoyed my Anthro courses at Rice, because I really enjoyed learning how other peoples saw the world differently from any of the cultures I had experience with. As I recall every one of those courses had a final exam. But I guess things changed between my time and yours.

You are focused on the final exam. I am not. I just thought it interesting. It is more of a symptom rather than a defining characteristic.

Over and out.

(01-13-2024 03:25 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 12:19 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 11:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 11:29 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 09:27 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  i agree this is a very worthwhile course, and suggest we we expand the genre with Hispanic math and gay geology.

My last year, I was told that I should find out which courses the jocks were taking, and sign up for,those. One turned out to the best course I ever took, and one nearly flunked me. But they all had final exams.

It’s kind of a strange implication that a course is not worthwhile or serious if it does not have a final exam.

Maybe to you. My entire undergrad and grad careers, save for the independent research, had final exams. I take those to be an exam to see if the knowledge meant to imparted was actually imparted. Lack of an exam may mean no particular knowledge was planned to imparted. I think even philosophy courses have final exams.

Philosophy courses in general? At all schools? I took a philosophy corset, Rice, and it did not have a physical exam. As you noted, perhaps things have changed since you were in school and since I was in school.

Nonetheless, the assumption you have made is incorrect, that you think I believe the Afrochem course has no merit because ithas no final exam. I think the lack of the final exam just shows it has no body of knowledge to be imparted. Even beginner chem has a body of knowledge to be imparted. I think the course itself probably has no merit because it tries to tie two things together that have no intersection, like the additional courses I mentioned. I don’t see the intersection between hard science/math and political views. Maybe a student in the course could explain it to me. Until then, I will continue to consider gay geology an apt companion course. Same as astronomy for transsexuals. As for Hispanic math, in my experience Quattro menos dos still equals four minus two.

Good talking to you again.

I took courses that did not have a final exam. As I recall, most of these seemed to be be non-SE courses. Some of these required a final paper at the end of the course. Some of the courses were graded simply on papers, exams during the semester and class participation. This does not equate to the courses not having a body of knowledge to be imparted.
[/quote]

True. I wonder what the body of knowledge to be imparted in this course is. That elements are different in Africa or Asia? That acids act differently in some U.S. states than in others?

[/quote]

Nobody nobody here knows, but that has not stopped some people at the start of the thread from suggesting that this is an embarrassing, pointless course. Some suggested that job should be lost over it. Not saying that you said that.

Quote:I am sure things have changed in the 55 years since I graduated from Rice. Maybe today one does not have to display a mastery of the subject matter.

There’s literally nothing to support this statement. Other than the lack of final exam, which you suggest below that you are not focused on.

Quote: Maybe just perfect attendance or the right attitude. But if I send my kids or grandkids t6o college to be a chemist, or a physicist or a geologist, I want them learn what it takes to be a professional chemist, physicist, or geologist.

Of course, nobody is going to rely on this course in their quest to become a chemist. I imagine this is more of an anthropologic course.

Quote:I really enjoyed my Anthro courses at Rice, because I really enjoyed learning how other peoples saw the world differently from any of the cultures I had experience with. As I recall every one of those courses had a final exam. But I guess things changed between my time and yours.

Yes. Every course does not have a final exam.

Quote:You are focused on the final exam. I am not.

Nothing from nothing but you brought up the final final exam a couple times before I participated in this thread.

Quote:I just thought it interesting.

Interesting but meaningless? You seemed to imply that it was a signal that the course had no information to impart.

(01-13-2024 12:11 AM)TheOwl84 Wrote:  Trying to find intersections between science and social issues like race COULD be interesting.

Or it could be total bullsh**. My money would tend to be on the latter.

(01-13-2024 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 12:11 AM)TheOwl84 Wrote:  Trying to find intersections between science and social issues like race COULD be interesting.

Or it could be total bullsh**. My money would tend to be on the latter.

I’m not seeing how a course titled and described as this one advances the ball for either Rice or its black students. What am I missing?

(01-14-2024 01:59 PM)ranfin Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 12:11 AM)TheOwl84 Wrote:  Trying to find intersections between science and social issues like race COULD be interesting.

Or it could be total bullsh**. My money would tend to be on the latter.

I’m not seeing how a course titled and described as this one advances the ball for either Rice or its black students. What am I missing?

News of this course has spread.

I cannot say that that I am happy with what whatever effect it has had on Rice's reputation. The best I could hope for is zero.

(01-15-2024 01:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-14-2024 01:59 PM)ranfin Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 12:11 AM)TheOwl84 Wrote:  Trying to find intersections between science and social issues like race COULD be interesting.

Or it could be total bullsh**. My money would tend to be on the latter.

I’m not seeing how a course titled and described as this one advances the ball for either Rice or its black students. What am I missing?

News of this course has spread.

I cannot say that that I am happy with what whatever effect it has had on Rice's reputation. The best I could hope for is zero.

The needle probably doesn't move. Those who are likely to get worked up over this already have their opinions about elite institutions solidly formed.

(01-15-2024 02:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 01:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-14-2024 01:59 PM)ranfin Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 12:11 AM)TheOwl84 Wrote:  Trying to find intersections between science and social issues like race COULD be interesting.

Or it could be total bullsh**. My money would tend to be on the latter.

I’m not seeing how a course titled and described as this one advances the ball for either Rice or its black students. What am I missing?

News of this course has spread.

I cannot say that that I am happy with what whatever effect it has had on Rice's reputation. The best I could hope for is zero.

The needle probably doesn't move. Those who are likely to get worked up over this already have their opinions about elite institutions solidly formed.

I guess some people would look upon this as enhancing Rice's reputation. Question then, to me, becomes "Are these the people we want as students or faculty"?

Elite institutions can have their rep tarnished in various ways to various peoples, e. g., Harvard, which saw a 17% drop in early admission acceptances due to the plagiarism scandal and/or tolerance of anti-semitism. I would guess a lot of those 17% had their opinion changed, since they applied for early admission.

(01-15-2024 01:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-14-2024 01:59 PM)ranfin Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 12:11 AM)TheOwl84 Wrote:  Trying to find intersections between science and social issues like race COULD be interesting.

Or it could be total bullsh**. My money would tend to be on the latter.

I’m not seeing how a course titled and described as this one advances the ball for either Rice or its black students. What am I missing?

News of this course has spread.

Indeed it has. The most interesting thing I gleaned from this opinion piece and the article that Optimistic Owl linked to is why a listed chemistry course is being taught by a person in the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion office rather than someone from the chemistry department.

(01-15-2024 02:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 02:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 01:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-14-2024 01:59 PM)ranfin Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Or it could be total bullsh**. My money would tend to be on the latter.

I’m not seeing how a course titled and described as this one advances the ball for either Rice or its black students. What am I missing?

News of this course has spread.

I cannot say that that I am happy with what whatever effect it has had on Rice's reputation. The best I could hope for is zero.

The needle probably doesn't move. Those who are likely to get worked up over this already have their opinions about elite institutions solidly formed.

I guess some people would look upon this as enhancing Rice's reputation. Question then, to me, is\\becomes "Are these the people we want as students or faculty"?

Elite institutions can have their rep tarnished in various ways to various peoples, e. g., Harvard, which saw a 17% drop in early admission acceptances due to the plagiarism scandal and/or tolerance of anti-semitism. I would guess a lot of those 17% had their opinion changed, since they applied for early admission.

I think this is apples to oranges. I don't think the people who are scouring course catalogs hoping to find something that offends their sensibilities are 17-18 y/o's who are in the process of applying to college.

(01-15-2024 03:36 PM)Jonathan Sadow Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 01:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-14-2024 01:59 PM)ranfin Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-13-2024 12:11 AM)TheOwl84 Wrote:  Trying to find intersections between science and social issues like race COULD be interesting.

Or it could be total bullsh**. My money would tend to be on the latter.

I’m not seeing how a course titled and described as this one advances the ball for either Rice or its black students. What am I missing?

News of this course has spread.

Indeed it has. The most interesting thing I gleaned from this opinion piece and the article that Optimistic Owl linked to is why a listed chemistry course is being taught by a person in the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion office rather than someone from the chemistry department.

Probably, as the article says, she earned a PhD in Chemistry from Princeton…

If I had not already decided to pull my financial support for Rice, I would now.

(01-15-2024 03:40 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 02:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 02:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 01:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-14-2024 01:59 PM)ranfin Wrote:  I’m not seeing how a course titled and described as this one advances the ball for either Rice or its black students. What am I missing?

News of this course has spread.

I cannot say that that I am happy with what whatever effect it has had on Rice's reputation. The best I could hope for is zero.

The needle probably doesn't move. Those who are likely to get worked up over this already have their opinions about elite institutions solidly formed.

I guess some people would look upon this as enhancing Rice's reputation. Question then, to me, is\\becomes "Are these the people we want as students or faculty"?

Elite institutions can have their rep tarnished in various ways to various peoples, e. g., Harvard, which saw a 17% drop in early admission acceptances due to the plagiarism scandal and/or tolerance of anti-semitism. I would guess a lot of those 17% had their opinion changed, since they applied for early admission.

I think this is apples to oranges. I don't think the people who are scouring course catalogs hoping to find something that offends their sensibilities are 17-18 y/o's who are in the process of applying to college.

Yep, no one would see a course titled “Afrochemistry” and think Rice had become a frigging joke. Well, maybe a bunch of crazy, anti-Woke conspiracy theorists. But who cares about what they think, right?

(01-15-2024 05:35 PM)ranfin Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 03:40 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 02:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 02:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 01:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  News of this course has spread.

I cannot say that that I am happy with what whatever effect it has had on Rice's reputation. The best I could hope for is zero.

The needle probably doesn't move. Those who are likely to get worked up over this already have their opinions about elite institutions solidly formed.

I guess some people would look upon this as enhancing Rice's reputation. Question then, to me, is\\becomes "Are these the people we want as students or faculty"?

Elite institutions can have their rep tarnished in various ways to various peoples, e. g., Harvard, which saw a 17% drop in early admission acceptances due to the plagiarism scandal and/or tolerance of anti-semitism. I would guess a lot of those 17% had their opinion changed, since they applied for early admission.

I think this is apples to oranges. I don't think the people who are scouring course catalogs hoping to find something that offends their sensibilities are 17-18 y/o's who are in the process of applying to college.

Yep, no one would see a course titled “Afrochemistry” and think Rice had become a frigging joke. Well, maybe a bunch of crazy, anti-Woke conspiracy theorists. But who cares about what they think, right?

Great news! The class is getting national attention! Google “I Can’t Believe This is a Real Science Class in a Real University.” This is such a wonderful development for Rice. No doubt there are many more such wonderful developments to come. DEI, the gift that keeps on giving.

(01-15-2024 03:40 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 02:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 02:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(01-15-2024 01:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-14-2024 01:59 PM)ranfin Wrote:  I’m not seeing how a course titled and described as this one advances the ball for either Rice or its black students. What am I missing?

News of this course has spread.

I cannot say that that I am happy with what whatever effect it has had on Rice's reputation. The best I could hope for is zero.

The needle probably doesn't move. Those who are likely to get worked up over this already have their opinions about elite institutions solidly formed.

I guess some people would look upon this as enhancing Rice's reputation. Question then, to me, is\\becomes "Are these the people we want as students or faculty"?

Elite institutions can have their rep tarnished in various ways to various peoples, e. g., Harvard, which saw a 17% drop in early admission acceptances due to the plagiarism scandal and/or tolerance of anti-semitism. I would guess a lot of those 17% had their opinion changed, since they applied for early admission.

I think this is apples to oranges. I don't think the people who are scouring course catalogs hoping to find something that offends their sensibilities are 17-18 y/o's who are in the process of applying to college.

Nobody is scouring catalogs hoping to find something that offends their sensibilities. But some people, hoping to find a serious University for themselves or for their child may well hear of this on the news or on the net, as I did, and as you did, and decide to cross Rice off their list of possibilities.

Others who may have respected a Rice degree before, may respect it a little less. Very few, if any, will respect it more.

I think the list of those who will hear of it and ADD Rice to their list because of it is much, much shorter.

Edit, 1-16: I notice that this story is listed on MSN this morning. I wonder who thinks this is good pub.

I sorta laughed this whole issue off when it was first posted. ‘Figured that what little attention it got would evaporate quickly.
Wrong.
I follow Michael Smerconish, especially his daily newsletter. It has a daily section highlighting news stories and which type of news outlets are covering those stories… right leaning outlets vs left leaning.
The story was picked up by several outlets, some of them non-US…all right leaning. No left leaning outlets picked it up. That factoid, in and of itself, is fodder for a lot of discussion that I’m sure the Quad will happily provide.
My 73 year old irrelevant white guy viewpoint is that the growing negative reaction of some of the press to Rice offering this course (which, by the way, has ?less than 10 enrollees) probably has the administration asking themselves WTF were we thinking?
I think there are a lot more practical ways to stimulate African-American, non-STEM oriented students’ interest in chemistry. But I’m so distant from the present undergraduate experience now … I may be totally wrong.

(01-16-2024 10:08 AM)greyowl72 Wrote:  I think there are a lot more practical ways to stimulate African-American, non-STEM oriented students’ interest in chemistry.

Agree with your post in toto, except maybe for the quoted sentence. I don't think the goal is to stimulate anybody's interest in chemistry, nor do I think that will ever be the result.

(01-16-2024 10:16 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-16-2024 10:08 AM)greyowl72 Wrote:  I think there are a lot more practical ways to stimulate African-American, non-STEM oriented students’ interest in chemistry.

Agree with your post in toto, except maybe for the quoted sentence. I don't think the goal is to stimulate anybody's interest in chemistry, nor do I think that will ever be the result.

What do you think the goal is?