VT beating NCSU in 86 Peach Bowl was over a fake injury that stopped the clock to allow a game winning field goal. Classic Dooley.

(12-13-2023 07:47 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(12-13-2023 06:44 PM)MainePony Wrote:  Interesting discussion.

Why is it bad for a conference to have a top dog or two ‘running’ the conference? SWC, PAC, Big 12 (to a certain extent) either died or were greatly diminished after the big dogs took their bone and left. Definitely not a UT fan but there’s a flip side to the argument against the ACC wanting/needing a top dog or two…it’s maddening…I get it…we despise Texas and their arrogance…but like it or not the alternative for the other schools isn’t pretty.

ND- I’m guessing that a ND away game @ SMU would be played at Jerry World or the Cotton Bowl…not sure it would sell out but possible. If one of the schools with a smaller stadium capacity is on NDs away schedule why shouldn’t those games be held at a neutral field? No longer a true ‘home field’ but to me a home game vs ND should be a privilege/reward. And sorry but FSU complaining about smaller crowds vs Wake says more about FSU than Wake, especially given how competitive Wake has been in that matchup. How would attendance vs Vandy look?

Thank you for your input.

You make a good point about the "top dogs". For better or worse it exist and often times they run the conference. I'd prefer everyone was on equal footing, but if you are in the ACC long enough you realize there is a hierarchy (hint: FSU is not at the top).

The ACC (or is it just FSU and Clemson ?) wants to be on par with the SEC and BigTen financially. The ACC is locked in a long term financial disadvantage relative to their peers in the SEC and BigTen. There does not seem to be a way to significantly make a dent into that financial disadvantage, so we take the small victories when we can. The ACC could help itself by creating more games that fans would want to attend, the FSU vs Wake example is just 1 of such games. I addressed the alternatives in this or another thread that would increase fan interest across the board, the insistence that there needs to be an equal rotation is unimaginative and leaves a lot money on the table that could be used to better the ACC.

Wake is a very small private school that does not produce many fans or alumni, so they are not going to sell many away game tickets to their fans @FSU. Wake's stadium also holds 30k, FSU and Wake splits gate revenue and they are at the bottom or close to it in attendance, it is a significant revenue loss for FSU playing at Winston-Salem.

The other issue is that Tallahassee is a bit isolated, many of our fans and alumni live in Tampa and South Florida. To their credit they make the drive and show out for the big games, but games vs Wake, Duke and others, the crowds are typically much less. This hits FSU and the Tallahassee Chamber of Commerce in the wallet. TV ratings also significantly dip and they are not usually much better than playing a G5 body bag game.

Not a dis on Wake's competitiveness, before the 2023 season they had a 3 game (likely 4 if the 2020 game was not cancelled) winning streak on the Noles. NCSU is another school with a winning streak vs FSU, but has a net positive on FSU's gate split. So this is not about ducking teams that are tough to beat, it's just business.

BTW, The Wake Forest games in Chapel Hill outdraw Notre Dame.

What I'm hearing from you is that you (FSU fans) is that the ACC should cater more to Florida State's needs because FSU is "special".
If FSU as in institution is not happy with their relationship with the ACC, it should pursue another path. The ACC on the other hand would have an obligation to it's other members to hold Florida State to the letter of it's existing contracts and extract the maximum amounts from FSU should the school choose to leave the ACC. That's just business.

(12-14-2023 05:42 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(12-13-2023 07:47 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(12-13-2023 06:44 PM)MainePony Wrote:  Interesting discussion.

Why is it bad for a conference to have a top dog or two ‘running’ the conference? SWC, PAC, Big 12 (to a certain extent) either died or were greatly diminished after the big dogs took their bone and left. Definitely not a UT fan but there’s a flip side to the argument against the ACC wanting/needing a top dog or two…it’s maddening…I get it…we despise Texas and their arrogance…but like it or not the alternative for the other schools isn’t pretty.

ND- I’m guessing that a ND away game @ SMU would be played at Jerry World or the Cotton Bowl…not sure it would sell out but possible. If one of the schools with a smaller stadium capacity is on NDs away schedule why shouldn’t those games be held at a neutral field? No longer a true ‘home field’ but to me a home game vs ND should be a privilege/reward. And sorry but FSU complaining about smaller crowds vs Wake says more about FSU than Wake, especially given how competitive Wake has been in that matchup. How would attendance vs Vandy look?

Thank you for your input.

You make a good point about the "top dogs". For better or worse it exist and often times they run the conference. I'd prefer everyone was on equal footing, but if you are in the ACC long enough you realize there is a hierarchy (hint: FSU is not at the top).

The ACC (or is it just FSU and Clemson ?) wants to be on par with the SEC and BigTen financially. The ACC is locked in a long term financial disadvantage relative to their peers in the SEC and BigTen. There does not seem to be a way to significantly make a dent into that financial disadvantage, so we take the small victories when we can. The ACC could help itself by creating more games that fans would want to attend, the FSU vs Wake example is just 1 of such games. I addressed the alternatives in this or another thread that would increase fan interest across the board, the insistence that there needs to be an equal rotation is unimaginative and leaves a lot money on the table that could be used to better the ACC.

Wake is a very small private school that does not produce many fans or alumni, so they are not going to sell many away game tickets to their fans @FSU. Wake's stadium also holds 30k, FSU and Wake splits gate revenue and they are at the bottom or close to it in attendance, it is a significant revenue loss for FSU playing at Winston-Salem.

The other issue is that Tallahassee is a bit isolated, many of our fans and alumni live in Tampa and South Florida. To their credit they make the drive and show out for the big games, but games vs Wake, Duke and others, the crowds are typically much less. This hits FSU and the Tallahassee Chamber of Commerce in the wallet. TV ratings also significantly dip and they are not usually much better than playing a G5 body bag game.

Not a dis on Wake's competitiveness, before the 2023 season they had a 3 game (likely 4 if the 2020 game was not cancelled) winning streak on the Noles. NCSU is another school with a winning streak vs FSU, but has a net positive on FSU's gate split. So this is not about ducking teams that are tough to beat, it's just business.

BTW, The Wake Forest games in Chapel Hill outdraw Notre Dame.

What I'm hearing from you is that you (FSU fans) is that the ACC should cater more to Florida State's needs because FSU is "special".
If FSU as in institution is not happy with their relationship with the ACC, it should pursue another path. The ACC on the other hand would have an obligation to it's other members to hold Florida State to the letter of it's existing contracts and extract the maximum amounts from FSU should the school choose to leave the ACC. That's just business.

If that’s the case, then UNC should play Wake more. If Wake is such a good draw for the rest of the conference then by all means push for them to be on the schedule. If ND is not a good draw, then UNC should want to play them less. Your statement sounds more like you’d prefer to punish FSU for their sabre rattling than to make sound sound bussiness decisions that could help out more than just FSU.

(12-13-2023 02:01 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(12-13-2023 01:36 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-13-2023 07:28 AM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  Many FSU fans live in a world where the only thing that matters is recent football success. That means nothing prior to about 1980 matters to them, indeed, does not exist to them. They live in a world where FSU seems to have been pulled from whole cloth as if the Earth was made just 6,000 years ago or something. God spoke and "poof" there was begot FSU football.

Without a proper historical context or an understanding of others, the efforts of other schools from 1890 to 1980 mean nothing to them, indeed does not exist. They are "entitled" to certain things as if those who existed and played football starting 90 years ahead of them do not exist unless they can do something for them.

If your University was not handing out masters degrees prior to WWI you are not old money. If your University was not handing out masters degrees prior to the end of WWII you are for damn sure some form or kind of "new money" in the fact that compared to old, you are in fact new. Everything about FSU is "new" compared to Pitt, UNC, UVa, etc. It's just a factual reality. FSU is not even a land grant "cow college" from a time standpoint. FSU exists in the world of post WWII universities that were established to address the GI Bill and the burgeoning us population growth. FSU fits in with a group that consists of Cal Riverside, Cal Irving, Cal San Diego, and USF - post WWII universities that have grown to international importance.

I read a lot from FSU fans about barnstorming and Bobby Bowden, playing anyone all over the country before joining the ACC.

While I think it admirable, I found that none of them had any idea that Knute Rockne and Notre Dame invented barnstorming and did it in the 1920's, not the 1970's or '80's.

Maybe they didn't want to acknowledge copying ND, maybe they were just ignorant of that fact. I dunno.

I recall before the 1993 game that an FSU wide receiver insisted on mocking Rockne by referring to him intentionally as Rock Knutney.

What he gained from that escapes me, but whatevs.

So, no, I never got the idea that college football history mattered all that much to FSU folks.

e tu Terry?

?

These things happened.

(12-13-2023 01:36 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I read a lot from FSU fans about barnstorming and Bobby Bowden, playing anyone all over the country before joining the ACC.

While I think it admirable, I found that none of them had any idea that Knute Rockne and Notre Dame invented barnstorming and did it in the 1920's, not the 1970's or '80's.

Maybe they didn't want to acknowledge copying ND, maybe they were just ignorant of that fact. I dunno.

I recall before the 1993 game that an FSU wide receiver insisted on mocking Rockne by referring to him intentionally as Rock Knutney.

What he gained from that escapes me, but whatevs.

So, no, I never got the idea that college football history mattered all that much to FSU folks.

The Seminoles weren't 'copying' ND. That's pretty silly.

Bobby Bowden played powerhouse programs as away games because the schedules were made up before he arrived. An AD was trying to keep a moribund independent program financially afloat, and programs like Nebraska and LSU wanted (then as now) to have more home games. So—Florida State became everyone's homecoming opponent.

Bowden made his name going into those places and winning. The press paid attention because the press was already there. A scheduling approach born of desperate necessity paid off.

You are of course right about Notre Dame having its own, earlier history of barnstorming. Born of necessity, the coast-to-coast scheduling approach helped the team develop a national following. This story is well known.

It's a good story. Just keep perspective. There's no need to gild the lily.

(12-14-2023 06:40 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  ....
Your statement sounds more like you’d prefer to punish FSU for their sabre rattling than to make sound sound business decisions that could help out more than just FSU.

We can't help it. A certain flair comes with our role models.

Osceola once 'signed' a treaty by stabbing a knife through it.

If anything we should take the approach more often. It would have served us well, for example, if taken to a certain grant-of-rights extension. Or to 'the Alliance.'

"Rising tide raises all boats" is meant to appeal to the lower class - to sell them on the idea that giving benefits to the upper class will help them also.

The upper class wants to remain above the lower regardless of whether that means blessings or curses for themselves. They don't care about the tide.

UNC sees themselves as upper class, and FSU as lower class.

Is everybody angry posting in this thread?

(12-14-2023 11:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  "Rising tide raises all boats" is meant to appeal to the lower class - to sell them on the idea that giving benefits to the upper class will help them also.

The upper class wants to remain above the lower regardless of whether that means blessings or curses for themselves. They don't care about the tide.

UNC sees themselves as upper class, and FSU as lower class.

Both of your statements are true.

(12-14-2023 05:26 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  Is everybody angry posting in this thread?

YOU started it!

(12-14-2023 10:06 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(12-14-2023 05:26 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  Is everybody angry posting in this thread?

YOU started it!

(12-14-2023 11:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  ....
UNC sees themselves as upper class, and FSU as lower class.

As if we all didn't have grads driving Hondas.

Sorry. Yale is Yale, and UNC is UNC. Public universities mainly serve the middle class.

It's OK. Hondas are good cars.

(12-16-2023 12:34 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(12-14-2023 11:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  ....
UNC sees themselves as upper class, and FSU as lower class.

As if we all didn't have grads driving Hondas.

Sorry. Yale is Yale, and UNC is UNC. Public universities mainly serve the middle class.

It's OK. Hondas are good cars.

UNC, UVa, VT, NC State, Delaware, Penn State, Pitt, Michigan, Illinois, GT, Minnesota, Cal, UCLA, Washington, and others do not mainly serve the middle class. They serve the upper middle class and upper class.

(12-17-2023 02:48 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  

(12-16-2023 12:34 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(12-14-2023 11:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  ....
UNC sees themselves as upper class, and FSU as lower class.

As if we all didn't have grads driving Hondas.

Sorry. Yale is Yale, and UNC is UNC. Public universities mainly serve the middle class.

It's OK. Hondas are good cars.

UNC, UVa, VT, NC State, Delaware, Penn State, Pitt, Michigan, Illinois, GT, Minnesota, Cal, UCLA, Washington, and others do not mainly serve the middle class. They serve the upper middle class and upper class.

IDK, plenty of "working class" folks at VT (GT and NC State too, IIRC). Engineers don't tend to be all that wealthy or come from wealthy families.

(12-17-2023 03:04 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(12-17-2023 02:48 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  

(12-16-2023 12:34 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(12-14-2023 11:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  ....
UNC sees themselves as upper class, and FSU as lower class.

As if we all didn't have grads driving Hondas.

Sorry. Yale is Yale, and UNC is UNC. Public universities mainly serve the middle class.

It's OK. Hondas are good cars.

UNC, UVa, VT, NC State, Delaware, Penn State, Pitt, Michigan, Illinois, GT, Minnesota, Cal, UCLA, Washington, and others do not mainly serve the middle class. They serve the upper middle class and upper class.

IDK, plenty of "working class" folks at VT (GT and NC State too, IIRC). Engineers don't tend to be all that wealthy or come from wealthy families.

Like gitanole, you don't understand where the middle actually is in the US.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...-diversity

Using the Pell Grant as a marker that indicates a family making less than 55K a year and understanding that median income in Ga, Alabama, and Florida is about 53 K a year - the following is the percentage of students who qualified for Pell grant at various universities. Remember, the Pell is not just for poor kids, but lower middle kids.

30% Louisville - 30% of Louisville's students qualified.
29% Mississippi State
28% UCLA
25% Ole Miss, Texas, Illinois
24% FSU
22% UF
20% UNC, Tennessee, NC State, Ohio State, Michigan State
19% Harvard, MD
18% Michigan, Georgia
17% Pitt
15% UVa
14% Clemson, GT
13% South Carolina
12% Auburn, Duke, SMU

You should be at at least 33% Pell if your admissions profile is not skewed to wealthier kids.

Neither you nor Gitanole are probably middle class. You are probably upper middle class and you may be transitioning down due to retirement, but middle class is just not very well off in the United States and the location of that middle is skewed by very wealthy outliers. The fact that you know a couple of poor kids who made Engineers is an anecdote not a statistic. Moreover, once VT minted that shoeless, mountain holler boy an engineer, he rose from his lowly station in life to the upper middle class. I too know such a shoeless, mountain holler boy who upon leaving the holler to become an engineer began that American journey into the upper middle class where he is today - my wife's nephew. His kids are not being raised in middle class surroundings. Now if you ask him he is still the same poor holler boy he was 15 years ago. His sense of self will not change with the $160K he now makes annually plus benefits.

(12-17-2023 03:04 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(12-17-2023 02:48 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  

(12-16-2023 12:34 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(12-14-2023 11:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  ....
UNC sees themselves as upper class, and FSU as lower class.

As if we all didn't have grads driving Hondas.

Sorry. Yale is Yale, and UNC is UNC. Public universities mainly serve the middle class.

It's OK. Hondas are good cars.

UNC, UVa, VT, NC State, Delaware, Penn State, Pitt, Michigan, Illinois, GT, Minnesota, Cal, UCLA, Washington, and others do not mainly serve the middle class. They serve the upper middle class and upper class.

IDK, plenty of "working class" folks at VT (GT and NC State too, IIRC). Engineers don't tend to be all that wealthy or come from wealthy families.

Mark, since WWII there have been more "working class" folks admitted to these institutions, that's true, but the bulk of the students come from better than average circumstances.

Don’t get fanbase confused with alumni. Tobacco Road has plenty of fans, as does Virginia Tech. I don’t meet too many UVa fans that aren’t alumni though. Same with GaTech and Vandy.

(12-13-2023 09:26 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(12-13-2023 08:57 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(12-12-2023 08:54 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(12-12-2023 08:50 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(12-12-2023 07:40 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  30+ straight years of FSU vs Wake, it does not sell out Doak and it does not do well in the tv ratings, there is no rivalry feelings from either side, it's time to retire that as an annual and maybe it does better as a twice in 7 years type of game due to scarcity. This is not narcisism, it's bussiness.

I'll give FSU this: UVa actually created a trophy when they beat them the first time.

The Jefferson-Epps trophy was not a bad idea in theory. Divisions and UVA's own ineptitude prevented the game from being all that it can be. It's better that this trophy is retired before it gets the Civil Conflict treatment.

It’s better than that, and maybe a bit better than some of the contrived everybody-gets-five-rivalries Big Ten nonsense.

The Metropolitan Buckeye - Rutgers vs Ohio State (a buckeye with a top hat and a monocle)

The Maize Crab - Michigan vs UMd

The Trojan Cornstalk - USC vs Nebraska (this is a giant cornstalk on wheels modeled after the Trojan horse)

If we’re inventing trophies then FSU vs UL can play for the Corso Cup.

And I ..... another ..... but .... unbeaten at home sweetheart so I ... they ... special team the difference... an .... uh ... closer than the experts think.

He is an institution. It's time to step back though.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using CSNbbs mobile app

(12-17-2023 03:14 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  

(12-17-2023 03:04 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(12-17-2023 02:48 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  

(12-16-2023 12:34 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(12-14-2023 11:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  ....
UNC sees themselves as upper class, and FSU as lower class.

As if we all didn't have grads driving Hondas.

Sorry. Yale is Yale, and UNC is UNC. Public universities mainly serve the middle class.

It's OK. Hondas are good cars.

UNC, UVa, VT, NC State, Delaware, Penn State, Pitt, Michigan, Illinois, GT, Minnesota, Cal, UCLA, Washington, and others do not mainly serve the middle class. They serve the upper middle class and upper class.

IDK, plenty of "working class" folks at VT (GT and NC State too, IIRC). Engineers don't tend to be all that wealthy or come from wealthy families.

Like gitanole, you don't understand where the middle actually is in the US.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...-diversity

Using the Pell Grant as a marker that indicates a family making less than 55K a year and understanding that median income in Ga, Alabama, and Florida is about 53 K a year - the following is the percentage of students who qualified for Pell grant at various universities. Remember, the Pell is not just for poor kids, but lower middle kids.

30% Louisville - 30% of Louisville's students qualified.
29% Mississippi State
28% UCLA
25% Ole Miss, Texas, Illinois
24% FSU
22% UF
20% UNC, Tennessee, NC State, Ohio State, Michigan State
19% Harvard, MD
18% Michigan, Georgia
17% Pitt
15% UVa
14% Clemson, GT
13% South Carolina
12% Auburn, Duke, SMU

You should be at at least 33% Pell if your admissions profile is not skewed to wealthier kids.

Neither you nor Gitanole are probably middle class. You are probably upper middle class and you may be transitioning down due to retirement, but middle class is just not very well off in the United States and the location of that middle is skewed by very wealthy outliers. The fact that you know a couple of poor kids who made Engineers is an anecdote not a statistic. Moreover, once VT minted that shoeless, mountain holler boy an engineer, he rose from his lowly station in life to the upper middle class. I too know such a shoeless, mountain holler boy who upon leaving the holler to become an engineer began that American journey into the upper middle class where he is today - my wife's nephew. His kids are not being raised in middle class surroundings. Now if you ask him he is still the same poor holler boy he was 15 years ago. His sense of self will not change with the $160K he now makes annually plus benefits.

This is old data but can give y’all some idea regarding family income for students.

______Top 1%. Top 20%
UNC 6% 60%
UVA 8.5% 67%
VT 2.8% 66%
NC state 1.8% 51%
FSU 2.5% 51%

VT doesn’t attract many upper class but plenty of upper middle class kids.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/proj...university

(12-17-2023 02:48 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  

(12-16-2023 12:34 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(12-14-2023 11:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  ....
UNC sees themselves as upper class, and FSU as lower class.

As if we all didn't have grads driving Hondas.

Sorry. Yale is Yale, and UNC is UNC. Public universities mainly serve the middle class.

It's OK. Hondas are good cars.

UNC, UVa, VT, NC State, Delaware, Penn State, Pitt, Michigan, Illinois, GT, Minnesota, Cal, UCLA, Washington, and others do not mainly serve the middle class. They serve the upper middle class and upper class.

I've been on pretty much all of those campuses and stand by my statement. Anyway, 'upper middle class' is still middle class.

Middle class is a big group. Bell curves have the shape they do for a reason.

If the president's kid lived in the dorm room across the hall from yours, your dorm was far more likely to have been on an Ivy League campus, or the Duke or Stanford campus, than on Penn State's. Fact.

No, the Penn State publicity brochure will not mention this. The Penn State brochure will talk about AAU, Rhodes scholars, etc. All good, of course. As I say, Hondas are good cars.

And to the extent that upward mobility is still a thing, education is the still the most effective means of enabling it. Go to Penn State for undergrad and you might yet go to Princeton for grad. Drive a Honda now and you might own your own jet later. People's lives aren't static, and education is lifelong.

Our public universities do good work.